littlegto Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 This morning my 95 Legacy 2.2 AWD died in the driveway. I park in a heated garage, backed out, closed the door then got back in the car to back out and died. It will restart then die immediately. Tank is 3/4 full, never done this before or had any stalling issues other than cam sensor one year ago, and it seems like the fuel pump to me. Any ideas? This site has always been very helpful. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrturbo Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 It is kind of unusual to have one of these pumps go. How long has it been since the car got a timing belt? That is normally the only item that will commonly leave them completely dead in the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 How's about if you're holding the throttle down like 1/4 - 1/2, does it just die out then too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlegto Posted December 6, 2007 Author Share Posted December 6, 2007 How's about if you're holding the throttle down like 1/4 - 1/2, does it just die out then too? I tried this morning but don't even get a chance to hold the throttle..it starts then it dies immediately..also the timing belt is overdue I guess and mileage seemed to be getting worse prior to this. I initially started it and it ran for a couple of minutes this am but then when restarting it just starts then dies immediately and after starting about 3 times it just turned over and no start, then I left it for about ten minutes and it started up and died immediately both times. I was going to try to keep it running by holding the throttle down but it just dies too quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 A timing belt will give no warning, and they dont like being over extenteded in mileage all that much. Fuel pump is rare on these things, as well as fuel pump relays. You can always check for power back at the fuel pump, its easy enough to do. Its just a panel behind the back seat to remove, I forget which side now has the pump. Check for spark first Just to make sure you have continuos spark, and not just at first crank. Since fuel issues usually manifest themselves as a drivability issue, for now lets rule out the fuel system. Pull the covers and check the timing belt. Let the car get cold (outside) and see if it will start, it may be a dead spot in the engine temp sensor. When the car does run, do you have a CEL? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwoodsboy Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 I forget which side now has the pump. nipper Passenger side panel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlegto Posted December 6, 2007 Author Share Posted December 6, 2007 A timing belt will give no warning, and they dont like being over extenteded in mileage all that much. Fuel pump is rare on these things, as well as fuel pump relays. You can always check for power back at the fuel pump, its easy enough to do. Its just a panel behind the back seat to remove, I forget which side now has the pump. Check for spark first Just to make sure you have continuos spark, and not just at first crank. Since fuel issues usually manifest themselves as a drivability issue, for now lets rule out the fuel system. Pull the covers and check the timing belt. Let the car get cold (outside) and see if it will start, it may be a dead spot in the engine temp sensor. When the car does run, do you have a CEL? nipper I don't know a thing about electrical. The care has only 105,000 kms on it so I think the timing belt isn't too much overdue. I had no check engine light on last night or on initial start up this morning. After that I don't think the cel was on but the car only ran for an instant each time I started it. I don't understand how it would start up if the fuel pump (or if it is the timing belt) is shot but I briefly spoke with a machanic friend this morning and he said it is probably the pump. It is sitting outside now and I will try to start it again when I get home from work and see if the CEL comes on. The only other thing I can add is it was very low on fuel prior to my last fill up approx 4 days ago and I don't know when the last time the fuel filter was changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 sounds like fuel line freeze up to me. enough gas gets through to start then drops off to a dribble line from the pump got cold enough for icing while it sat in the driveway. What was the temp outside when this happened? -20 or so? (deg C) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Ok, well fuel filter can definitely be something to change as preventative maintenance then anyway. When you move the key from acc to run (but not to start), do you hear the fuel pump come on for a second or two? Maybe you have water in your fuel system that has now frozen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlegto Posted December 6, 2007 Author Share Posted December 6, 2007 Ok, well fuel filter can definitely be something to change as preventative maintenance then anyway. When you move the key from acc to run (but not to start), do you hear the fuel pump come on for a second or two? Maybe you have water in your fuel system that has now frozen? Temp was about -15C this am. the car has close to 3/4 tank in it and I wouldnt hear the pump over the car turning over, but the car started repeatedly...this makes me think the line can't have frozen. Plus if there is that much water in the fuel wouldn't the car run horrible, and it was -28 C yesterday and I had no issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Hm...well a fairly simple test would be to remove either the fuel line coming out of the fuel filter going to the engine, put it into a clear bottle or something, then cycle the key from acc to run a couple times waiting a few seconds between operations, and see if you're getting fuel out. In my experience you should get at least say two to four ounces per key cycle. Of course disclaimer here with the fuel flammable spray in the eyes :cool: thing Maybe the line isn't frozen completely closed, just severly blocked, or ditto for the fuel filter. Also did you try holding the throttle like 1/2 way down while starting (not just trying to step on it after starting)? I just say this because sometimes if it's an idle air control issue it will start and run with the throttle held down some but not with no throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Porc, since he's not buying into the FLF (Fuel Line Freeze) another critical component is the CTS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 My vote rest on fuel filter or fuel line freeze. If it starts at all then the pump is running. Something is blocking the flow. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 It doesnt take much to freeze a fuel line. The extreemly low fuel thing can be a problem in winter. I dont want you buying a fuel pump just because, without testing it yet. I am not convinced its a frozen fuel line since it was in a heated garage. The fuel is moving once the car is running, circulating, and a moving fluid doesnt freeze. I would be suspicous of the fuel filter though. What is your skill level? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Porc, since he's not buying into the FLF(Fuel Line Freeze) another critical component is the CTS Thats why i was curious if it would run at air temp nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlegto Posted December 6, 2007 Author Share Posted December 6, 2007 It doesnt take much to freeze a fuel line. The extreemly low fuel thing can be a problem in winter. I dont want you buying a fuel pump just because, without testing it yet. I am not convinced its a frozen fuel line since it was in a heated garage. The fuel is moving once the car is running, circulating, and a moving fluid doesnt freeze. I would be suspicous of the fuel filter though. What is your skill level? nipper I can't see fuel line freezing either as it was in a heated garage, there is a lot of fuel in the car and it was running when I backed it out for a few minutes....plus the temp here is way milder than it was yesterday and no problems yesterday. I can't understand how a faulty fuel pump or frozen line would allow it to start again and again. I mentioned the low gas previous to my last fill up as I was thinking maybe sediment in the tank worked its way into the line and plugged? I am no mechanic and fix most of my own problems, mainly on older cars over the years that don't have sensors and electrical issues like these. I have replaced a fuel pump on a 92 Mazda 4x4 in the past which was in the tank, and from reading your posts am I to understand that replacing one in this car does not involve dropping the gas tank? There is an access plate? Reason I ask this is on the Mazda I cut a hole and made access to the pump for future access as it had a boxliner to cover everything after. Pretty good engineering on Subaru's part if there is access. After work I'll try starting it (the car is outside now so I am assuming if it does not start, it probably is frozen line), check for a CEL, and add some gas line antifreeze. If no luck then I'll change the fuel filter next. I'll let you know tomorrow how it goes. Thanks for all the help. Your advice is very much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Too late for gasline antifreeze. If you have 10% ethanol in the gas its not needed. Fuel pump is accessed from the top of the car under a floor plate. Do not replace the fuel pump unless you have confirmed no flow. A coolant temp sensor can keep the car from starting, as well as a bad fuel pressure regulator. You may need to put a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel line to check the pressure. WIth the cover off of the access plate, you can have someone turn the car on and try to start it, and you should be able to feel the pump run. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlegto Posted December 6, 2007 Author Share Posted December 6, 2007 Thats why i was curious if it would run at air temp nipper Are you referring to the Coolant Temperature Sensor and if so, where is that located. I read some other posts about that. If I don't have any luck after adding fuel line antifreeze and changing the fuel filter, I guess this is the next place to look? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Someone else will show you. I am on my laptop and dont have that info here. The CTS tells the car that its really cold, so it needs to run richer then usual to start up. Then once the car starts to warm up it adjusts acordingly. If you have a dead spot in your CTS range, the car wont start. The crank and cam postion sensors will kepp the car from starting at all, so they are ruled out since yours fires and stalls (for now). nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlegto Posted December 6, 2007 Author Share Posted December 6, 2007 Too late for gasline antifreeze. If you have 10% ethanol in the gas its not needed. Fuel pump is accessed from the top of the car under a floor plate. Do not replace the fuel pump unless you have confirmed no flow. A coolant temp sensor can keep the car from starting, as well as a bad fuel pressure regulator. You may need to put a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel line to check the pressure. WIth the cover off of the access plate, you can have someone turn the car on and try to start it, and you should be able to feel the pump run. nipper Wow Nipper, you're faster than McDonald's drive thru.Would a faulty CTS allow the car to start? And with no CEL? Never used a fuel pressure guage but might have access to one. Is the fuel pressure regulator in the tank too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Wow Nipper, you're faster than McDonald's drive thru.Would a faulty CTS allow the car to start? And with no CEL? Never used a fuel pressure guage but might have access to one. Is the fuel pressure regulator in the tank too? to throw a CEL the car has to run x number of seconds, which yours is not doing. The regulator is under the hood and a very simple thing. Its a couple of fuel lines and a vacume line. Pokearound www.endwrench.com in the archives, there is good info. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 I would recommend starting with the basics.................Spark plugs, air and fuel filters should be replaced as preventative maintenance based on milage. When was the engine last tuned up? Plugs, air and fuel filters? If more than 30k miles you should replace these items anyway. Once you know that these basic items are good, if you still have the problem you can move on with diagnoises of other possible casues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwoodsboy Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 from reading your posts am I to understand that replacing one in this car does not involve dropping the gas tank? There is an access plate? Yes. Behind the rear seats are your (2) access panels. The pass side panel comes off to reveal the fuel pump top and nuts that hold it to the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Also to throw a CEL the ECU has to be able to detect a problem. If the sensor is just grossly inaccurate the ECU doesn't know its lying unless maybe it has another sensor to compare the value with or something like that. Like if I ask you what's the temp outside and you tell me 60 deg; I don't know if you're lying or not. If you don't answer at all or tell me something way off base like 200 deg then I know something is wrong. ECTS = engine coolant temp sensor FPR = fuel pressure regulator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Also to throw a CEL the ECU has to be able to detect a problem. If the sensor is just grossly inaccurate the ECU doesn't know its lying unless maybe it has another sensor to compare the value with or something like that. Like if I ask you what's the temp outside and you tell me 60 deg; I don't know if you're lying or not. If you don't answer at all or tell me something way off base like 200 deg then I know something is wrong. ECTS = engine coolant temp sensor FPR = fuel pressure regulator Have you met my stalker that always has pictures? :-p nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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