2.5L Paranoia

[subihoot03]

I feel myself on the verge of becoming one of the countless victims of 2.5L engine head gasket failure.

 

Please confirm or dissuade my paranoia.

 

Have been driving my 2003 Subaru Legacy sedan for a little under a year. Bought the car with 96k on it - have racked it up to approx 113k since last January. My commute is 32 mi roundtrip, rather hilly, with countless in-town short-term driving/wear-and-tear on errands for work. Also...I am NOT a gentle driver. I don't exactly have a lead foot, but I like to climb hills at a relatively fast speed - something that the more beefy 2.5L engine makes a little easier. A while ago I noticed a slight burning smell when climbing a steep grade. I saw what looked like a small oil leak from near the front of the engine, but not being a mechanic I could neither confirm or deny this. All I knew was that the temp gauge was steady all the time, and the engine was not using much oil between changes. It was still running fine, so I didn't really think much of it.

 

Waited 5000 mi before my last oil change, which was about 2 weeks ago. When I took it in, I noted the burning smell and the tech said he'd keep an eye out for it. He did note, when finished, that there was a small leak (as I'd thought) near the front of the engine, but it was barely using any oil at all, so not to worry. He doesn't work on Subaru engines, so he wouldn't go any further into it.

 

Yesterday I dropped the car off to have the suspension shaken down at my local Subaru specialist (NOT dealership). They gave me peace of mind and fixed the shimmy in my steering wheel, but noted gently that the head gasket(s) were seeping oil. That the engine wasn't using oil much, but to keep an eye on it...

 

WHAT???! All I saw were the words "head gasket" and my heart started racing. I'm not in a position to replace any major engine components...I have zero credit, no credit cards, no savings...etc...so of course the thought of major engine repairs sends me into a frenzy.

 

Is this the first little sign that I'm headed down the ugly road to a blown head gasket? What can I do NOW to help my situation??? And if I do end up at the eventual and unfortunate crossroads that many others find themselves at, where in New Hampshire do I turn for a) a used engine; help.

 

HELP!!!

 

[Manarius]

Headgaskets don't seep oil. Valve cover gaskets do. A much cheaper job.

[subihoot03]

Headgaskets don't seep oil. Valve cover gaskets do. A much cheaper job.

 

Thanks for the clarification - just going based on what mechanic left me for notes on my service invoice. Thing is, they replaced valve cover gaskets right before I got the car...so a little under a year ago...would this really be causing the slight leak at front of engine, and what am I at risk for with this happening?

[idosubaru]

Hey! Good news! I think you're okay! I will only say one thing...just keep an eye on your oil and coolant level and I think you'll be golden for a long time.

 

i'm not saying your mechanics are wrong, but i am very skeptical of their diagnosis. this is probably a mis-diagnosis or they are trying to rip you off. seals seep on any vehicle, that's very typical at your mileage. there are front cam and oil pump seals that very commonly seep or leak oil...more often than not actually. they are typically replaced at every timing belt change interval by "good" mechanics. they only cost a couple dollars and are right behind the timing belt. which brings up the next question, you're 8,000 miles past your timing belt change interval (105,000) has that been done yet?

 

do you have a digital camera, if you can take pictures of the engine we might be able to help. try to get good shots of the oil and plenty of lighting. the most helpful shots without taking anything apart would be from directly underneath the engine.

 

the 2000-2002 EJ25 engines are offered a Subaru coolant additive by Subaru for the head gaskets. as a precaution you could add that to yours as well, but i do not think it's needed. do not EVER add anything else to the oil or coolant, I am not in any way endorsing that practice.

 

could you post your manufacture date of the vehicle - it should be on the metal plate inside the door jamb. the head gasket issue was supposed to be "resolved" "sometime" in 2002...i'd be interested to see your man. date in 2002.

 

in the future if you have no savings and disposable income i do not recommend driving a vehicle in the price range you are currently driving. financial stress is a very, very bad thing. i see and work with people all the time that spend too much money on vehicles, my suggestion is to not be like that, it's bad news.

[idosubaru]

Valve cover gaskets, don't worry about them. Based on what you are telling me, no signifcant loss of oil between changes, there's nothing that can happen. But it wolud be nice to get a picture of them to see if that's the cause. Basically you can let valve cover gaskets leak as much as you want so long as you keep adding oil and don't let the level drop...and don't mind your Subaru marking it's territory if they get worse! As long as you check the oil periodically and don't let the engine run out of oil you can let the valve covers leak all they want.

[Manarius]

Valve cover gaskets, don't worry about them. Based on what you are telling me, no signifcant loss of oil between changes, there's nothing that can happen. But it wolud be nice to get a picture of them to see if that's the cause. Basically you can let valve cover gaskets leak as much as you want so long as you keep adding oil and don't let the level drop...and don't mind your Subaru marking it's territory if they get worse! As long as you check the oil periodically and don't let the engine run out of oil you can let the valve covers leak all they want.

Eh. I didn't notice he said front of the engine.

 

If it's just a little bit of oil - it happens. Just check it so that you don't run low.

[NOMAD327]

It sounds more like a front seal leak than valve covers. This leak tends to not leave driveway drips, but you will get the burnt oil smell and the bottom of the engine and transmission will have a light oil coat. If you look at the bottom of the oil pump which is right behind the crankshaft pulley and adjacent to the oil filter, you will see two cylindrical protrusions that point down, on on either side of the crankshaft. If these have oil drops on them, it is the front crank seal or possibly cam seals or an oil pump leak. These problems are all somewhat common, and all fixed by renewing the front seals as part of a timing belt replacement. You are at a mileage where the timing belt should be replaced immediately, unless you are certain it has been done in the past.

[WAWalker]

I don't want to add to your paranoia, but...........................

 

Yes, head gaskets on 2000 and newer 2.5L Subarus engines do seep/leak oil. And the external coolant leak was not "taken care of" in mid 2002. I have seen a number of '03's with external coolant leaks.

 

You can add the cooling system "conditioner" for any external coolant leak at the head gaskets. Will it help? Don't know. Will it hurt? Don't know. Subaru recommends it's use in all of their engines now (since June of '03).

 

There is nothing you can do for the oil leaks at the head gasket.

 

If it is not a major leak at this point..............Take your car to a shop you trust for oil changes so they can monitor the leak for you, and let you know if it is getting worse.

 

If you plan to keep this car, start saving for the work that will need to be done at some point in time.

[subihoot03]

Hey! Good news! I think you're okay! I will only say one thing...just keep an eye on your oil and coolant level and I think you'll be golden for a long time.

 

...which brings up the next question, you're 8,000 miles past your timing belt change interval (105,000) has that been done yet?

 

 

could you post your manufacture date of the vehicle - it should be on the metal plate inside the door jamb. the head gasket issue was supposed to be "resolved" "sometime" in 2002...i'd be interested to see your man. date in 2002.

 

 

Thanks for all the good info! I will try to get pics of the engine posted as soon as I am able. Might be able to get the guy who changes my oil in the winter to let me use his lift

 

As for the manufacture date, it's printed as being 11/02...

 

And the timing belt was changed at my request at 96k, right when I bought the car. Since I demanded it and also demanded that they held steady at the price I'd worked for on the car...chances are they didn't do anything else. And me, being a greenhorn with buying newer cars...didn't think of it in all the excitement of finally having something that WASN'T a complete POS.

 

Yeah...kind of a dumb move buying a car SLIGHTLY out of my price range, one that I could only JUST afford. But I figure, if I can keep up with it every time something small happens...I'll squeeze at least the term of my loan out of this car, if not more. Plus...I love it. Like a child....... :-D

[idosubaru]

the external coolant leak was not "taken care of" in mid 2002. I have seen a number of '03's with external coolant leaks.

do you mean 2003 stamped on the manufacture date or MY2003? i agree and don't trust anything Subaru may say hence my careful wording and use of " " and my curiosity of his date.

could you post your manufacture date of the vehicle - it should be on the metal plate inside the door jamb. the head gasket issue was supposed to be "resolved" "sometime" in 2002.

but it doesn't appear his is a head gasket issue anyway, so that's no logistical fun. if you mean 03 man. date, have you seen any 04's? have you noticed what year they have the newer version of the head gasket installed, i haven't done any newer ones.

 

someone in the know with Subaru informed me that they did do something about it in 2002 (man. date), that would be 2003 model year. that adds up with Subaru's conditioner fix which they put in 2000-2002 EJ25's. but i doubt there's a way of specifying an exact date, so it doesn't surprise me that failure rates may taper in either direction. someone else mentioned some 2003 leaks as well, but i did not ask if they meant man. date or model year.

[WAWalker]

I have not payed a lot of attention to the manufacture dates. So I guess I am refureing to MY2003.

 

I can't find the campaine letter, but I remember it saying that they changed something in manufacturing or assembly mid 2002 to fix the leaks. I don't remember any mention of an actual month in 2002.

 

Yes, mid 2002 would would be when MY2003 cars are being built.

 

I have heard of external coolant leaks on MY2004 cars. Can't say that I have seen it though.

 

Now as far as the head gasket goes. I was told that they updated the gasket....................................but.........................Of all the original gaskets that I have replaced with OE replacment gaskets over the last few years, I can NOT tell any differance.

[idosubaru]

i would expect a bleeding affect of sorts anyway - into 2003 (2004 MY) would not be a surprise. i remember someone saying they've seen this, but i haven't seen it yet. i'm waiting though....it always expands the opportunity to own nice cars for next to nothing!

[sjbien]

my 2001 ej 25 is just back on the road after a head gasket failure that did not involve coolant leak, only an external oil leak. its easy to see the area of burned oil near the manifold. and now that it is fixed a funny smell is gone too.

so, keep an eye on engine temp, coolant, and oil levels, and save some money.

good luck

S

[2X2KOB]

my 2001 ej 25 is just back on the road after a head gasket failure that did not involve coolant leak, only an external oil leak. its easy to see the area of burned oil near the manifold. and now that it is fixed a funny smell is gone too.

so, keep an eye on engine temp, coolant, and oil levels, and save some money.

good luck

S

 

 

How bad was the external oil leak from the headgasket? Could you have let it go, and continued to drive it?

[idosubaru]

How bad was the external oil leak from the headgasket? Could you have let it go, and continued to drive it?

it's a risk, but typically external leaks can be small and be driven quite a while. if it gets worse and it's a supply line (say to the cams) then you could have an oil starved valve train. so even if it was "okay" when he had it replaced it's only a matter of time before it gets to the point where it could cause problems. there is where the risk comes into play....may have taken 300,000 miles...might have taken 3,000.

[WAWalker]

Tried to get some pictures of this type of leak on a Forester that is on the lift right now.

Hard to get a good picture, to tight of a space the get enough lighting and a camera in there. But this is drivers side, looking up and back between the motor mount and the exhaust.

[WAWalker]

Here are a couple from the back side.

 

 

This one is leaking more antifreeze then oil. Note the green residue.

[2X2KOB]

Thanks for the pictures. Looks like a pretty slow leak, personally I'd let that sort of thing go until it was starting to soil up my clean pristine garage floor in an unacceptable fashion. Although I guess the stench while driving would be a factor too...

[WAWalker]

Yes these are normaly slow leaks.

In this case the car is at 115k miles, and has not had the 105k mile service yet. So it is out of warranty for the head gasket repair, and needs timing belt, W/P, seals, and valve adjustment. All this work will be performed during a head gasket repair. So...............do you do the 105k service, and wait for the head gasket leak to get worse? Or do you do the head gasket repair now and have the 105k mile service taken care of all in one shot? In the long run you save ~$400 doing it all at once.

[2X2KOB]

That makes sense.