96 Outback Overheating

[jp98]

I have a friend that has a 96 Outback with the 2.2 in it that is overheating going up hills. He has replace the thermostat and it sitll does it. There are no strange noises coming from the engine or whine from the water pump. I'm going to see if I can help this evening after work so any ideas will be appreaciated.

 

Thanks

Jim

[Suzam]

What's the Mileage??

 

Was a OEM Subaru themostat used? It should be, aftermarkets don't perform well in Subies.

 

Was the system "burped" properly? (You can do a search on the board)

 

When you say it overheats, is the gauge going up, and how much? Or are we talking steam out from under the hood?

 

If everything is working correctly the temperature needle should be rock steady at halfway or a little under at all times.

 

When the engine is at operation temperature is the lower radiator hose warm?

 

And last but not least, is the coolant new?

[WAWalker]

If it is only overheating when pulling a hill, that is normaly a flow problem. Either lack of air flow through the radiator or lack of coolant flow through the radiator.

Check coolant level in radiator, and recovery bottle.

Check that cooling fans are working.

Check that radiator and A/C condensor fins are not pluged with dirt, mud, bugs..............

Pressure test radiator cap.

 

How many miles on engine?

When was timing belt and water pump last replaced?

 

Head gasket failure is rare on 2.2L engines but does happen.

Radiators clogging internaly on Legacy's is rare but does happen.

 

Lots of things to check.................Get back to use with more info.

[jp98]

Engine has 245,000 on it and it was a Carquest thermostat. Closest Subaru dealer is 70 miles away. I'll have him check the radiator hose tonight. As far as timing belt and water pump there is no telling. His wife bought the car used and hasn't done much maintence in at least 100,000 miles. He is just hoping to get it running so he can sell it and get something else. On the water pump, do they make any noises when it goes bad?

 

Thanks

Jim

[idosubaru]

Subaru thermostats are way better than after markets - people have posted pictures of them side-by-side before, the difference is enormous.

[WAWalker]

WOW. At that milage and no history of maintenance in the last 100k.............................Anything is possible. What is rare on a well maintained 100-150k mile 2.2L Subaru (head gasket failure, clogged radiator ect.) probably doesn't apply to this car.

 

The reason I mention timing belt and water pump (timing belt tensioner also applies), is that an old worn out, streched and glazed timing belt, in conjunction with a possibly weak ternsioner, can in theory slip on the water pump pully, causing insuficiant coolant flow.

 

Those are desirable cars for sure, but in my experiance selling anything with that kind of milage, for what you might think it is worth, is tuff. If it looks like it's going to cost much to fix it, it may be hard to recoupe the expenss when he sells it.

[jp98]

I think that you have come up with what is happening with the belt slipping. I'll ask him how it runs otherwise, he hasn't said anything about it running bad. I stoped by where he has it parked and checked the oil. Everything looks ok there so I don't think that the coolant is running into the oil. Looking at the car itself it doesn't look too bad appearance wise but who knows what else might need to be replaced. I did tell him that it might make a good beater driving back and forth to work everyday if it can be repaired fairly cheep. How do you say. CCR here we come.

 

Jim

[jp98]

After checking out everything that has been done to this car we have pretty much decided that the problem just may be the timing belt and water pump. Now all my buddy needs to do if figure out if it is worth replacing or donating the car for the tax write off.

Thanks for the help

 

Jim

[idosubaru]

i highly doubt the belt is slipping on the water pump. it's possible but i'm betting it's something else.

[screwbaru2]

Replace the themostat with a OEM it's cheaper and eaiser than the timing belt and more likely to be the problem. It'll be worth the drive to get it. Make sure there's no air in the system also. Like it was stated 100K no maintance could be many things even more than one. Going up hill with air in the system could cause flow issues.

[WAWalker]

i highly doubt the belt is slipping on the water pump. it's possible but i'm betting it's something else.

 

I agree. I have not personaly seen this happen. That is why I said "in theory" it can happen.

 

It is more likely to be something else. Or as stated a combo of things.

 

The point I was trying to get at is that with that kind of mileage you have to really think about all the other maintenance items that are going to need attention.

And not that it is any of my business (so I wasn't going to come out and say it) but I don't like to see high mileage cars that haven't been taken care of being "fixed" on the cheap and sold, if the next owner is going to have to exceed the valve of the car to get the maintanence caught up.

Like I said it really is none of my business, but I said my peice.

[jp98]

We looked at it a little bit more this morning after the sun came up and came up with the idea that he is going to donate it to charity. We did however check the coolant witch is now full along with no blockage in the radiator, along with the fans working ok. While the car is idleing everything is ok it is just when you go for a ride and then slow down. I know that I said that it was on a uphill drive but that is what happens when you are getting second hand information. The car was bought with 95,000 miles on it and now has around 245,000 without any maintence except for oil changes. I wondered how it made it this far, and as I said it runs fine except for the overheating.

There just might be something in the idea of Volvo with a sealed engine compartment and having to take it to them for anything under the hood. Some people just shouldn't have a car.

 

Thanks for the help

 

Jim

[idosubaru]

my guess is that the radiator is clogged. a very, very simple fix and new/used ones are easily found.

 

i agree on the maintenance being way behind. i have a friend going on 250,000 miles and he's never changed his timing belt yet either. at this point though it might be worth putting in a $50 used radiator and driving it another year or two! new radiators aren't that expensive either, but they're all over the place used.

[mlpdickerson]

i realize this is slightly off your topic but i am having the same problem with 96 outback. How do i tell which engine i have? is it on the engine somewhere and am going to get a subaru thermostat tomorrow-will it be obvious which way it goes in? this thermostat goes at the bottom of the radiator...

[nipper]

i realize this is slightly off your topic but i am having the same problem with 96 outback. How do i tell which engine i have? is it on the engine somewhere and am going to get a subaru thermostat tomorrow-will it be obvious which way it goes in? this thermostat goes at the bottom of the radiator...

 

read the stickers under the hood.

 

http://www.cars101.com is another source.

 

Thermostat spring goes towards the engine.

 

nipper

[mlpdickerson]

ok thanks-heres the deal-anyone know how this was done? we purchased this 96 outback with 160k on it. we drove it home 20 miles never had an overheating problem with it. first time we used it after that it was fine until the engine warmed up in about 10 miles. Wondering how the seller was able to make it work for the ride home? we cant get it past 10 miles without going thru the roof...i guess its a HG issue-BUMMER. radiator never feels hot-i burped the radiator a couple of times-repaced thermostat with napa one but will try the oem one although i dont hold out much hope for it. if i decide to put a new engine in it-can i put a 2.2 (i think its the 2.5 junky deal) in it and where do i get one?

[nipper]

ok thanks-heres the deal-anyone know how this was done? we purchased this 96 outback with 160k on it. we drove it home 20 miles never had an overheating problem with it. first time we used it after that it was fine until the engine warmed up in about 10 miles. Wondering how the seller was able to make it work for the ride home? we cant get it past 10 miles without going thru the roof...i guess its a HG issue-BUMMER. radiator never feels hot-i burped the radiator a couple of times-repaced thermostat with napa one but will try the oem one although i dont hold out much hope for it. if i decide to put a new engine in it-can i put a 2.2 (i think its the 2.5 junky deal) in it and where do i get one?

At 160,000 miles, a HG is a risk on any used car. Lets start with the simple stuff.

 

1- Replace the radiator cap and clean the neck of the radiator.

2- Remove and clean the overflow tank.

3- Change the t-stat and flush the cooling system. Use a premix to refill.

Refill slowly with the engine running and the bleed valve on the radiator open. Wait for the t-stat to open, then slowly fill up some more after the colling system burps. Close bleed valve.Drive the car around the block, let it cool off, and repeat. That should get the air out.

 

The tell us if anything has changed.

 

nipper

[WAWalker]

i realize this is slightly off your topic but i am having the same problem with 96 outback. How do i tell which engine i have? is it on the engine somewhere and am going to get a subaru thermostat tomorrow-will it be obvious which way it goes in? this thermostat goes at the bottom of the radiator...

 

Is it a manual transmission or automatic?

 

If manual, it came with a 2.2L. If auto, it came with a 2.5L

 

Not to be rude, but maybe start your own thread, so as not to confuse your problem with the original posters problem.

[idosubaru]

Not to be rude, but maybe start your own thread, so as not to confuse your problem with the original posters problem.

no i'll vouch for it not being rude, i was just getting ready to reply not even realizing it....i was confused until i read your post.

 

a moderator should be able to split this thread, i do it on another subaru forum as a mod. hopefully that will happen?

 

as to the problem, you need to check other things first, radiators are notorious for clogging and you haven't mentioned anything about how it overheats, does it do it every time, how long has it been doing it, any other work to the vehicle, and most importantly are there any bubbles in the overflow tank after turning it off?

 

and tell us which motor you have. nippers comments about "any head gasket being a risk at 160k" are not accurate here...if it's an EJ25 it is far more susceptible to head gasket issues than an EJ22. it's not like EJ25's are more susceptible to loosing head gaskets until you reach 160,000 and then the percentage of failures magically are identical to every other engine. mathematics, physics, and statistics don't work that way. and yes you can easily swap an EJ22 into an EJ25 vehicle. you can do a search here for figure out the details on that, it's well covered and documented.

[nipper]

 

and tell us which motor you have. nippers comments about "any head gasket being a risk at 160k" are not accurate here...if it's an EJ25 it is far more susceptible to head gasket issues than an EJ22. it's not like EJ25's are more susceptible to loosing head gaskets until you reach 160,000 and then the percentage of failures magically are identical to every other engine.

 

So Gross you keep dismissing away my 30 plus years of pulling a wrench, and 18 years as an automotive engineer as not applicable. I dont mean to pick on you, but it does get annoying after a while. Do the research (as I have) and the higher the mileage on the car, subarus are not more likely to blow a headgasket then any other car on the road. Under 100,000 miles then you have a point.

 

The numbers Do work that way, its called wear and tear.

 

nipper

[WAWalker]

So Gross you keep dismissing away my 30 plus years of pulling a wrench, and 18 years as an automotive engineer as not applicable. I dont mean to pick on you, but it does get annoying after a while. Do the research (as I have) and the higher the mileage on the car, subarus are not more likely to blow a headgasket then any other car on the road. Under 100,000 miles then you have a point.

 

The numbers Do work that way, its called wear and tear.

 

nipper

 

But we are not talking about "any other car on the road", we are talking Subaru EJ22 vs. EJ25 DOHC engines.

 

EJ25 DOHC engines are much more suseptible to bad head gaskets than are EJ22's.

 

I could count on my hands how many 2.2L head gasket repairs I have done. I lost count after doing 35-40 2.5L DOHC head gasket jobs, or engine replacments due to failed head gaskets, over a period of ~4 years. And I am still doing plenty of them.

Now if you take in to account that the EJ22 was made from 1990-1998. Were as the EJ25 DOHC engine was only made from 1996-1999 (less in '96 since the EJ22 was still availible in MT Outbacks).

Then the fact that there are many EJ22 with 200k+ miles still on original head gaskets, and I have never seen a EJ25 make it 200k on original head gaskets.................................................................You sir must be using "New Math".

[MilesFox]

aside from argument and dismissal, i remember once reading a post about an overheating legacy. i then the belt broke and the waterpump was discovered to be seized.

 

i would bet on a dragging water pump

 

i have 261,000 on my legacy and the water pump is the only thing left to let go with everything else that has been done

[Skip]

I'm with Walker on this one.

 

Nipper needs to cease and desist on this denial he is in.

 

He is one of the best techs we have on the board,

he will set straight mis-information posted faster

than a bolt of lighting.

 

But

His constant rhetoric in denial of the fact that Subaru EJ25

(of the era Walker portrays) has a head gasket problem is getting tiring.

 

I must add.

This type of mis-leading information is not Nipper's style.

It must be his evil twin doing it.

 

(Can't wait for his come back on this one.)

[85T-REX]

I think some of you are misunderstanding nippers comment.

 

Everything I've read on this site about 2.5's getting the new three layer head gaskets has made it seem like they were no longer having problems with them failing. If any of them have 160k miles on them, they've surely been replaced, right? In any case, from the time they are replaced, they are just as reliable and susceptable to failure as the 2.2 head gasket, right?

 

If my understanding of the gasket issue is right then nippers comment is also right. He knoweth what he speaks.

[WAWalker]

I think some of you are misunderstanding nippers comment.

 

Everything I've read on this site about 2.5's getting the new three layer head gaskets has made it seem like they were no longer having problems with them failing.

NO.

When it takes ~5-6 years and/or ~80-180k for the problem to be prevalent enough to be consider a patteren failure. Then it will take ~ the same amount of time and/or milage, after replacement, to determine if the new gaskets are truely a fix.

Just because the engineer said this gasket will fix the problem, does not mean it will. I'm sure they thought the first one would work. I'm sure they thought the head gaskets they used in the Phase II 2.5 engines would work. They don't.

 

If any of them have 160k miles on them, they've surely been replaced, right?

NO.

But if this was truely what you believe, how could you say that they are just a reliable as the 2.2's that the MAJORITY go over this mileage without ever needing the gaskets replaced.

 

In any case, from the time they are replaced, they are just as reliable and susceptable to failure as the 2.2 head gasket, right?

NO.

See above.

 

If my understanding of the gasket issue is right then nippers comment is also right. He knoweth what he speaks.

 

I think you misunderstand the gasket issue. As many do.