Starter Relay 96 Legacy GT

[RallyKeith]

Where can I find the starter relay on a 96 Legacy GT? This would be the relay between the key and the little connection to the solinoid of the starter.

 

Thanks,

Keith

[RallyKeith]

Nobody knows where it is? I know it's not in the engine bay... Is it up under the dash somewhere?

[Skip]

I have never seen one factory installed.

 

This may be why no one has answered.

 

 

Can you show me this on a FSM wiring diagram?

 

 

BTW I have put them on many Subarus.

[nipper]

What problem are you having?

 

 

nipper

[RallyKeith]

What problem are you having?

 

 

nipper

 

Car that occasionally won't start. It has a good battery and alternator, and and brand new REBUILT starter. Sometimes when you try to start the car, you hear the click of the starter solinoid engaging, but the starter doens't spin. You can read some more about it in this thread that I chimed in on, and Skip provided a possible solution to:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=81467&page=2

I've cleaned all the connections and was still having a problem. The wire inside the crimps on the wires to my battery were looking corroded, so I swapped the cables with ones on my 95 that has no starting issues. Since It's only an occasional thing only time will tell if this fixed it. In the mean time I was hoping to replace the relay I thought would be between the key and the starter solinoid.

 

Another thought, I think this car had an alarm module in it that I ripped out, so if that had a starter inhibit relay in it that could be causing problems as well.

 

Well, since I'm getting married in two days and then going on a little vaca It will be a few weeks until I can dig into this.

 

Thanks for your thoughts guys!

 

Keith

[nipper]

This is easy, and cheap.

 

First next time it happens put the car in neutral, see if its the neutral saftey switch. If that doesnt work then its

 

the starter solenoid contacts, assuming you have cleaned the battery cables.

 

nipper

[Skip]

brand new REBUILT starter. Sometimes when you try to start the car,

you hear the click of the starter solinoid engaging, but the starter doens't spin.

I've cleaned all the connections and was still having a problem.

 

 

last time I had a nuetral safety switch problem

there was no clicking as Keith says

 

some rebuilds are not as good as others but..

 

the test outlined in the post will show if the ignition switch

contacts are to blame.

 

If so the relay is a much easier fix than changing the ignition switch.

 

Congrats on the hitchin' enjoy your Vayca.

[nipper]

There have been a bunch of bad rebuilds out there, altenators and starters, so i tend to ignore that as part of the equation.

 

there is no industry standard for what a "rebuilt" unit is. Ideally its bushings, bearings, brushes, contacts, etc. Sometimes its just tested and cleaned.

 

The cheaper the rebuild, the more suspiscous of them i am.

 

nipper

[Skip]

Nipper says

 

" First next time it happens put the car in neutral, see if its the neutral saftey switch."

 

 

I do not think this is the situation here.

[RallyKeith]

Yeah, I guess I should have mentioned that. I don't think It's the neutral safety switch since when it does this is won't start in neutral either. Also, I had personally replaced the contacts in the OE starter in the car and had this same problem continue. I documented that in the other thread I link to.

[nipper]

Here is a test. Hook up a light bulb to the small wire of the starter. If this is happening often enough, watch the lightbulb. If you get no crank and no light, its either the ignition switch, or some unforseen starter interupt relay. I dont have my book in front of me, but i am pretty sure there is no starter relay in subarus (too much sudafed right now to say off the top of my head). There is a main relay, but no starter relay.

 

I really need to load the digital FSM onto the laptop one of these days.

 

nipper

[Skip]

Nipper

 

if you are not beatin' a dead horse

 

why did he say he hears a

click????

You are basicly questioning his hearing.

 

Come on, being nice here.

Please read the entire post before jumpin'

to your concultions.

[nipper]

When does he hear the click. If it seems im beating a dead horse, where are everyone elses suggestions or answers?

 

Like i said i dont have the manual with me, i'll look when i get home today, since no one else is really helping.

 

There are several relays that click when you turn the key. If you turn the key quickly you can mistake the main power relay for a starter relay. I am still not convinced that it is not the starter (I have gotten bad rebuilds myself).

 

no reason to beat me up.

 

nipper

[OB99W]

Car that occasionally won't start. It has a good battery and alternator, and and brand new REBUILT starter. Sometimes when you try to start the car, you hear the click of the starter solinoid engaging, but the starter doens't spin.[...]

Since you have a 4EAT (unless you did a swap and didn't tell us ), there's no starter interlock relay, and if unmodified, no specific "starter relay".

 

 

You can read some more about it in this thread that I chimed in on, and Skip provided a possible solution to:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=81467&page=2

In that thread you said: "I got contacts from the dealer, installed them, and cleaned and resurfaced the copper washer on the plunger. My starter still occasionally won't make proper contact and spin. (Yes, the coil is being actuated and the plunger is being pulled in)".

 

I've noticed that the portion of the throw of the solenoid that closes the contacts on the Nippon/Denso starters is fairly limited. If there's sufficient wear on the copper washer, and especially if you remove much material when "resurfacing" it, even with new "fixed" contacts there's not much leeway for solid contact. Especially if there's any foreign material at the area where the plunger bottoms out (opposite end to that of the copper washer), the throw may not be sufficient.

 

 

I've cleaned all the connections and was still having a problem. The wire inside the crimps on the wires to my battery were looking corroded, so I swapped the cables with ones on my 95 that has no starting issues. Since It's only an occasional thing only time will tell if this fixed it.

If you're hearing just a single click of the solenoid, and it's holding, it's unlikely that battery/cables/etc. are at fault. (Umm, see EDIT below.) I can see one possibility where a bit of additional voltage might make the difference. If the contacts in the solenoid are very marginal, a slightly harder throw of the solenoid could cause them to make. Obviously, if the situation was that bad, it wouldn't be long before the problem would resurface.

 

 

In the mean time I was hoping to replace the relay I thought would be between the key and the starter solinoid.

 

Another thought, I think this car had an alarm module in it that I ripped out, so if that had a starter inhibit relay in it that could be causing problems as well.[...]

As I mentioned above, your car wouldn't normally have a "starter relay". It could certainly have a starter inhibit relay, since it had an alarm. However, if the solenoid is pulling in and holding, one thing to consider (even on the rebuilt starter) is that the contacts aren't making. A poor "rebuild" might have been incomplete, either by not replacing the fixed contacts, and/or not replacing the plunger (the copper washer isn't removable on many N/D plungers; on ones that it is, replacing it or just turning it over if that hadn't been done before is a good idea if it's sufficiently worn). Some service manuals for the N/D starters make a point of how important it is that the fixed contacts be flush so that they're parallel with the copper washer; a specific amount of force against a wood block using a press is mentioned in some cases. Perhaps the contacts in the rebuilt were replaced, but sloppily.

 

EDIT: Hold the presses. I reconsidered my rejection of a bad battery cable as being responsible for this situation. On second thought, it could be possible for the solenoid contacts to be solidly making, and to still have the problem. When the power is split off at the positive battery terminal, what goes to the starter is separated from the rest of the engine. Therefore, the solenoid could be fully energized, make good contact, and still the engine might not crank if the battery-to-starter cable is bad enough. It's not common, but "The wire inside the crimps on the wires to my battery were looking corroded" might indicate that things were that bad. A voltage drop on that cable would affect nothing but cranking, assuming the clamp to the battery post was making good contact.

[johnceggleston]

when i installed an additional relay to activate my starter, and it has eliminated my starting problem for 18 months, so far, i concluded that my problem was not enough juice flowing through the ignition wiring / key switch to activate the solenoid. and i concluded this was the only problem. and since others have corrected what seems to be the same problem with new contacts in the starter i have modified my conclusions to this:

 

there is not enough juice flowing through the ignition wiring to activate the starter. the cause may by one or a combination of both of the following:

1. voltage drop in the ignition / switch wiring and

2. bad or worn contacts in the starter.

depending on how much you have of which one, may dertermine the best solution for your situation. i would assume on a rebuilt starter that the contacts would be better than average but who knows.

 

if you replace the contacts, they will work better and the vlotage drop, if any, may not be an issue any more. if you add a relay, you eliminate the voltage drop, if any, and with more juice the condition of the contacts is less critical, unless they are REALLY bad. i chose the relay because it was easier and cheaper and because i had already tried a good used starter. the relay works great.

 

measure the vlotage at the solenoid when you turn the key, this might tell you somthing. if the voltage is good, could it be the amps available that is the problem? i don't know enough about electricity to suggest anything else, but the relay works great. it eliminates any ignition wiring issues inside the car and steering column. the ignition wiring activates the new relay (it doesn't take much juice to do this) and the new relay activates the starter solenoid.

 

good luck.

[OB99W]

There are basically two separate issues.

 

The first is whether enough current is available for the solenoid to pull in and hold. If there isn't, and it's due to a poor ignition switch, then adding a relay will help; even a marginal ignition switch contact will usually be adequate to energize the coil of a relay, and then it's the relay contacts that have to be good enough to deliver power to the solenoid coil.

 

Once the solenoid is functioning correctly, the second concern is whether current for the starter motor itself can get from the battery to the motor. That's dependent on the copper washer at the end of the solenoid plunger bridging the "fixed" (non-moving) contacts with sufficiently low resistance, and the cable from the battery to the starter also having solid, low-resistance connections.

 

Except for the rare possibility that a bit more solenoid current could temporarily overcome a marginal situation with the solenoid's starter contacts by slamming the plunger in a little harder, the two issues really are independent of each other.

[Skip]

Going along with John

 

Historically, over the years that I have been a member,

there have been dozens of Subarus fixed with the relay.

 

No one has posted back that the fix failed after xx number

of months / years.

 

I personally have had to do it to three of mine.

I have never had to change a starter.

 

 

 

This admittedly statically inadequate observation

is by no means meant to be a fix all for starter problems.

 

The test shown on the above linked to post

will help one decide whether they want to

 

pull the starter and do a rebuild / replace

or

add the relay and fix what may be an issue with the ignition switch contacts.

[OB99W]

Skip, not to argue the point with you, but as I said there are two common failure modes. One is insufficient current to the solenoid coil; if due to a problem with the ignition switch, an added relay can resolve that.

 

On the other hand, worn contacts in the solenoid of Nippon/Denso starters is a well-known and common problem. This is one of many Web pages devoted to replacement parts for the problem: http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/densoparts.html

[Skip]

I did not post this to argue

but

simply portray some observations.

 

again

 

This admittedly statically inadequate observation

is by no means meant to be a fix all for starter problems.

 

The test shown on the above linked to post

will help one decide whether they want to...

[OB99W]

I did not post this to argue

but

simply portray some observations.[...]

I didn't mean to suggest you were being argumentative, but rather that I didn't want you to take my own comments that way. Hopefully anyone with a cranking problem will be able to differentiate between when the solenoid doesn't pull in properly, and when it does but the starter still doesn't crank reliably, and complete an appropriate repair.

[Skip]

Hopefully when Keith gets back from his vacation,

 

he will enlighten us to what he had to do to fix his problem.

[johnceggleston]

There are basically two separate issues.

 

The first is whether enough current is available for the solenoid to pull in and hold.

Once the solenoid is functioning correctly, the second concern is whether current for the starter motor itself can get from the battery to the motor.

so how about this as a procedure for correcting a non start issue with legacys 95 - 99 (mayb earlier and later).

 

if your car has an intermitten starting problem...

 

install the relay, it's cheap and easy, if this corrects the problem you are done.

it the problem persists, install new contacts or another starter, good used, reman or new, your choice.

if this corrects the problem try it without the relay. if the new starter/contacts without the relay corrects the problem, sell the relay for cost to another member.

 

this procedure would seem to be a good one, cheapest first, unless someone can come up with a test to determine which part is at fault, wiring or contacts.

 

buying contacts or a starter at any price more than $10 is going to cost more than the relay and wiring.

 

my opinion.

[RallyKeith]

Allright guys, enough of the bickering. As of 4pm yesterday I have a lifetime of bickering to look forward to at home.

 

On a serious note, the battery cables didn't fix it. I won't be able to get to it until january, but I'll post up back then with what I find. I'm guessing at this point that I'm going to be installing that relay!

 

Keith

[Skip]

Thanks for keeping us updated Keith

and again

Congrats on the hitchin'

[RallyKeith]

Ok, so this past weekend I replaced the Nuetral Safety switch. When I bought this car I had to put a trans in it. The Junkyard trans didn't have the switch on it so I had to swap mine over. (For a refresher this is an automatic, so this is a big switch with a lever that connects to the cable coming from the shift lever and senses what position the gear selector is in.) Anyhow, when I swapped the switch over it was stuck, like they used double sided tape, to the trans and the case for the switch cracked when I pulled it off. I took the switch apart and cleaned everything up, put fresh silicone grease in, and sealed it up as best as I could. So with this seemingly odd starting issue I decided that since this thing was hacked together I would replace it right away. That god for my Chase Subaru Master card rewards check because the replacement parts cost about $97 with my modest discount at the dealer.

 

So far it's been 5 days and no problems. This doesn't mean it's fixed for sure, but so far so good. While I was in there I wired up the relay discussed but left it unhooked until I get another failure. If it does not want to start all the little lady has to do is pull the black wire off the starter and plug it onto the open terminal on relay I mounted to the fire wall. I put a little splitter block on the starter terminal so the wire coming off the relay is already hooked up.

 

I'll post if and when it fails again!

 

Keith