Can't have my Subaru!?!?

[silverfox]

Hi Everyone...what a great place! I just found a sales brochure here of my old Subie that I LOVED! BUT...they don't make them like that anymore ! I had what I think was a 1981 Hatchback (bought it new) that had 2WD, a manual lever for 4WD AND...a manual lever for Low Range! That car would go ANYWHERE!! Now that I want a Subie again I have found that I can't HAVE one like that. As I remember this car it was a little under powered for my liking but, hey...when winter came here in Wisconsin...it was a miracle worker! I swear, I think that car could climb trees! Are there any later models that have those optons?? I'm really WAY disappointed that they chose to discontinue those models with those options. Bummer. SO....are there any of those vehicles with those options left on the road that are still good runners? I sure would like to have one of those again. They had their problems...under powered, front axle bearings and boots, etc. but I sure was amazed at what that little rig could do in the snow. WHY did Subaru stop making these??? They were better than GREAT! Anyone know where I could find one of these that isn't a wreck by now? Are there any models around that are similar in the $2500 to $6000 range? I sure would like to have a Subie again but I'm not a real fan of AWD. I liked them the way my '81 was. You could drive around in 2WD, shift to 4WD and, if needed, shift to low range with the dual tranny. I'm an older guy now and wish for a lot of things of yesteryear...especially the good old Subies that were little work horses with those drive train options.

Fox

[jbecker]

look for a gl wagon (85-89). Most of these gl wagons have the dual range tranny that you can switch from 2wd to 4wd high and 4wd low. They are out there.

[idosubaru]

if you don't like being limited in vehicle selection another option is to consider the fact that snow tires have come a long way in recent years, they are amazing in the snow. often times a FWD with good snow tires are better than 4WD. not that i'm saying you want 4WD, but maybe dual range isn't as necessary for you in those terms...

 

many later model EA82 and EA82T subaru's avaible up to 1994 have PT4WD transmissions and some have the FT4WD transmissions that have a center differential lock on them. those are true "locking" style 4WD center differentials. i personally recommend a FT4WD XT6 manual. locking center differential and the 6 cylinder offers much nicer driveability for towing, mountains and general around town driving. a quirky freaking car, but if you're interested at all check us out on the subaruXT forums.

 

lots of options out there really...there is a dual range FT4WD transmission in Subaru RX and others up until 1988 or so. really there's too many to talk about...i'm starting to confuse myself. i guess you need to decide if dual range is a must or if it's sacrificable so long as you retain true 4WD with a locking center differential.

 

or you could pick any EA82 or ER27(XT6) vehicle you want and swap a dual range transmission into. loyale, GL-10 wagons, GL hatches, XT, XT6, RX, Brats....then put the transmission in it that you want. the transmissions bolt right up, fairly easy swap.

 

of course EA82's have timing belts, they are a bit different from EA81's.

 

as far as newer subaru's they really have downgraded and backtracked in terms of off road, snow and mud driving with the newer EJ stuff. the closest thing you can get now is to...find a puke bag now...an automatic transmission. the manuals are nice, but for anything more than daily driving they aren't ideal, but the automatics at least have a duty solenoid that you can install a switch to manually control and "lock" the rear transfer clutches, giving you similar 4WD funcionality of the old school transmissions. with the duty C switch installed the automatics are better than the manuals for nasty stuff driving.

[silverfox]

Thanks so far everyone! I didn't know that the low range and 4WD manual levers were available all the way up to 1989 jbecker. That's good news if there are any around. And, 98obster...I wonder if the 2.2 engines bolt right up?? Glad to hear someone else besides me has the feeling that Subaru has downgraded and backtracked grossgary. I still believe those dual trannies and levered 4WD units were tops! I guess I really don't know what to do...maybe just get a EJ22 Legacy or something. Seems to me that if Subaru would come up with a 2WD, dual tranny, 4WD option model that had a little snort it would sell like hot cakes. I know I'd sure be interested. But...for now I just wanted to get a used Subie and found out they just don't make them the way they used to with the drive train options like in the '80's. What would you guys get for, say...$2000 to $5000??? Thanks again,

Fox

[Phizinza]

I sure would like to have a Subie again but I'm not a real fan of AWD. I liked them the way my '81 was. You could drive around in 2WD, shift to 4WD and, if needed, shift to low range with the dual tranny.

I know what you mean. That's why I built a AWD with low range and a center locking differential for 4WD, for my Brat. But all that work isn't for everyone.

If you just want a good stock Subaru that will get you there and back look at the 80-84 GL wagons. The EA81 motor is just like what you had in your hatch most likely, and with no timing belt problems or hydraulic lifters to make noise they are really reliable.

Hatchbacks are getting harder to find I believe. I live in Australia and we never got them here but I hear on this forum time and time again that it is hard to get a good old hatch. But the wagons and the Brats are pretty much the same car just a little longer.

 

For more detail on the 2.2, look up EJ22 swap on this forum. It is far from bolt right in. The power is nice, but the EFI is a PITA.

[RAugur33]

[ What would you guys get for, say...$2000 to $5000??? Thanks again,

Fox

 

For that price range range you should be able to buy good-concours hatch on the West Coast. It is definitely worth the $650 to buy in the west and have shipped to you in WI.

[GeneralDisorder]

I still believe those dual trannies and levered 4WD units were tops!

 

Well I think you have a few misconceptions about the new systems.

 

1. You don't need the old low-range if you have the HP of the newer engines. What I mean by that is partially a result of the capability of the older Subaru's with respect to ground clearance and suspension travel (in stock form), and partially a result of their low range being only 1.59:1 (1.45:1 in the case of your '81). IE: the low range isn't very low, and the capability of the vehicle doesn't warrant anything lower in stock form. With AWD, limited slip differentials, and 150+ HP you no longer have a need for what the low-range provided. It was there only as a band-aid for lower performing engines (73 HP in the case of your 81).

 

2. If you still feel the need to have a torque multiplier then consider the 4EAT transmission (automatic). The torque converter IS a low range, and if you put the transmission selector in 1 or 2 the transmission locks up 50/50 power split just like a 4WD would. It also has the benefit of electronic traction control using wheel speed sensors - it can send power to where it's the most useful by altering the torque bias using it's viscous center coupling.

 

If you still want a hatch for nostalgia, there's no problem there either. There's tons of them out here on the west coast for less than half what you are looking to pay. I got my 83 for $250 a few months ago - owner thought it needed a clutch but it was just the cable. If you go this route, swap out the 4 speed for the later 5 speed EA82 transmission. They are better designed and can be fitted to still look stock. You would just have an extra gear - which is always nice.

 

Don't get me wrong here - if you are planning on lifting your rig, then the low range 4WD transmissions are the way to go (prefereably the 5 speed's from the 85 to 89 wagon, sedan, and three-door body's). But in stock form they are NOT more capable or more "unstoppable" than an AWD Legacy. I would challenge anyone, anyday to a contest of abilities between a stock EA series and my Legacy with snow tires. And I own both types. I have two Legacy's, a Brat, a Hatch, a lifted Wagon, and lots and lots of parts

 

GD

[4x4_Welder]

Send me $5k, and you will get a fully rebuilt Hatch with a d/r 5speed, EJ22 conversion, and I might even throw in some power steering- Once I track down all the parts.

For more fun you can go with a wagon, or Brat.

[zyewdall]

 

1. You don't need the old low-range if you have the HP of the newer engines.

 

To a large extent that is true. However, my dad's EJ22 Outback will stall the engine in deep snow (above the bumper, going up hill) because it looses horsepower before losing traction. My old GL with low range will usually spin the wheels even when it won't move at all, even with snow tires. Of course, this may also have to do with the better traction control system of the outback so it's trying to spin all four wheels instead of just two. And it's sort of a moot point, since both cars stopped...

 

Crawling at low speed over rocks or roots is the other thing that a dual range is good at -- though the new automatic trannies aren't too bad either.

 

The best solution IMO.... EJ22 with the 5 speed dual range....

 

And yes, you can still find hatches in good condition in the west -- Colorado is okay, but CA, OR, and WA for the best ones. For $5000 I bet you could get a rust free hatch, and pay a shop to put in an EJ22, 5 speed dual range, and 4 inch lift.

[Manarius]

I second what GeneralDisorder said. You don't NEED to have PT4WD. AWD is just as good.

[idosubaru]

for $5,000 i would definitely be driving like an RS, or Legacy SUS, or Legacy LSi or a 2000 Impreza Wagon. there's just no comparison between the newer stuff and that old 80's stuff in many ways. the EA81 is a good motor but there's no way to compete with wheel bearings, struts, alternators, brake lines, fuel lines, electronics and every other part of the vehicle that's 15 years newer. better brakes, air bags, much more comfortable..etc. if someone put a gun to my head and said i must own an EA81 then i'd get both. if you have $4,000 it would be very easy to get both...a newer car and an old EA81 to play with. if "locking" style 4WD is necessary then just get an auto and install the switch and get a lift kit too.

 

as far as 4EAT's - not all of them "lock 50-50" when in 1st or 2nd, at least the XT6's do not. if they do it's not a full "lock" like you get with the duty C modification at all, it's not even close in an XT6 in terms of functionality/capability.

[GeneralDisorder]

as far as 4EAT's - not all of them "lock 50-50" when in 1st or 2nd, at least the XT6's do not. if they do it's not a full "lock" like you get with the duty C modification at all, it's not even close in an XT6 in terms of functionality/capability.

 

I think it's a Legacy and up thing. The XT6 and the EA82T's with the 4EAT had a pretty primitive version of it. Both were also more performance minded than raw traction minded vehicles. The XT6 especially with it's much lower stance. The outback transmissions definately do the 50/50 lock when they are in 1 or 2. And some have a "winter" mode or something along those lines that starts the drive pattern in 2nd to prevent over-acceleration from trying to start out in 1st.

 

GD

[silverfox]

wow! Tons of info here...beyond my knowledge of these cars anymore. OK, let's take a few things out of the mix here. I don't HAVE to have the old drive train and I don't HAVE to have a hatch. I'm just remembering the amazement of my old rig going up a 26% grade in 2 feet of Wisconsin snow without a blink. I had a Jeep Pioneer 4WD, a Ford F-150 4WD and a Chevy C-10 4WD and the Subie went up that hill when the others couldn't. I attributed that mostly to the Subie's independent suspension. All the wheels stayed on the ground ... never bounced off the ground so they could start spinning like the rear axles on the other rigs. That Subie would crawl through anything I threw at it. That's when I adopted the attitude that a Subaru is THE operative winter car for Wisconsin. SO...I'm now afraid to buy a Subie because I'm not sure it will perform as well in the Wisconsin winters like my old one did. I live out in the country and we get big drifts up on the ridge where I live. I have been researching used Subarus and also looked at the Ford Escape (I THINK they have a 4WD model). A friend of mine said I should get a Forester but I'm hearing good things here about the old Legacy. Anyway...back to the original question....if you guys could spend up to $5000 for a Subaru (preferably less) and needed a good winter rig, a good everyday driver, some room to carry things, decent power and some comfort...what would YOU buy and how should it be equipped?? And thanks again for all your help.

Fox

[idosubaru]

what body style - sedan, wagon, or impreza Outback Sport (sort of like a hatch, not a full wagon but not a hatch either)?

 

i dig XT6's, but that's not what i would recommend, an impreza outback sport would be my pic (and i have one) as newer reliability and newer parts is a good thing. i'm not a full size wagon fan though they are functional, with lots of room. the impreza is functional yet not a full size wagon. i prefer 1995+ legacy's (the earlier ones are nice but ugly and in your price range there's no reason to get a really old one anyway). but legacy wagons are a dime a dozen and easy to find cheap if that's what you want - i'd get a 1995+ legacy with an EJ22. you can find these mid 90's legacy's and impreza's for $1,000 - $3,500 no problem...depending if you want to put any work in one or have it in near perfect driving condition.

 

for imp's and leg's, get an EJ22 (2.2 liter) engine in them. that's the best in terms of reliability and you won't have any trouble finding one. starting in 1996 legacy's have both the EJ22 and EJ25 so you'll have to check. EJ25 is prone to head gasket and piston slap issues - type in either of those terms on google, yahoo, or here to read more info on that.

 

as for the transmission you have to decide between auto and manual. for better traction in snow, mud, and ice i'd go with an automatic and install a Duty C switch. the viscous centers of the manuals are nice pieces of machinery, but they do not shine in nasty muddy, snowy slop. having an ability to "lock" rather than slip is huge in snow and ice, at least in my experience.

 

then make sure you get a rear clutch type LSD (limited slip differential).

 

two important things for driving through deep snow - tires and ground clearance. those are more or at least as important than drivetrain really. a nice set of skinny snow tires and ground clearance is optimal. the hatch probably had the first and not the second. get the wrong kind of snow or conditions..how far you're driving, what kind of snow, how much speed you can maintain....etc and you will high center a subaru in deep snow. ground clearance does matter.

 

while i totally dig subaru's and like the way they perform, for every "my subaru out-did a truck" experience and comment i see, there are certainly plenty of examples of toyota's and others tearing up a subaru and that's why it's important not to think the subaru drivetrain is the "holy grail" of off roading.

 

so..you could get a lift as well.

[silverfox]

Thanks grossgary. Fact is...I rather like the looks of that Impreza OB Sport. I've seen them and liked them but didn't know if they were any good. I guess what I should do is find one of these and drive it and do the same with the Legacy wagon. Does the Sport come with an AT with the Duty C switch? What years were this model built? How much money are they for the respective years? I would be willing to get a Western rig if it's in great shape and affordable.

Fox

[idosubaru]

The XT6 especially with it's much lower stance. The outback transmissions definately do the 50/50 lock when they are in 1 or 2.

what outbacks have the 50/50 thing, legacy's only? i don't think the impreza outbacks do, or mine doesn't at least. certain years/models? XT6 low? the FWD sits low with coil overs, but the air suspension AWD jokers sit rather high..for a 2 door coupe!

[ivantruckman]

in michigan we have a lot of dual range ea82's with rusted bodies, with no chassis to put them in to:-\

[RAugur33]

A few other things to consider:

 

Comfort: If you are accustomed to power mirrors/steering/windows, working rear window defrosters and leg room then the legacy/Impreza is the way to go. If you are 6 foot or taller the EA 81 can be a bit cramped.

 

Safety: Airbags and crumple zones, Legacy/Impreza

 

For as great as the EA 81's are, they are nearly 30 years old. And what was comfortable to you 30 years ago may not be so comfortable to you now (you may not be as slim as you were in the 80's) EA 81's are funky, that's what is great about them. I would also consider lifestyle, are you retired and only go out when you want or are you shuffling wife & kids to school, work, shopping everyday? I am not trying to dissuade you from the EA81, I have one myself, just giving you some things to consider.

 

I keep an EA 81 as a ski vehicle, mainly because it is so inexpensive that If I hit anything like a guard rail or snow drift etc I could care less. However, I would care if I hit a guardrail etc in an OB or Forester.

 

Also, you are getting a lot of information about modifying here; if you are staying on paved roads you will be fine without the modifications (engine swaps, lift kits etc...)

 

Good luck and welcome back to Subaru Land.

[misledxcracker]

There's a new-gen forum. Why all the babble about new-gens in the old-gen forum?

[silverfox]

Sorry misledxcracker...I asked about used Subarus and this is where it has gone. I just want to know what's good and what isn't. Is the OB Sport considered new gen? What's considered new and what's considered old??

Fox

[GeneralDisorder]

You're fine to talk about all models here. Nio worries.

 

Find the nicest AWD 92 to 94 Legacy you can. Auto or manual - your preference.

 

Shouldn't cost more than $2500 to $3000.

 

You can then "add" Outback struts and springs for the higher ground clearance - also gives you room for larger tires. That will help out with those drifts.

 

The 90 to 94 Legacy's have the most bulletproof engine - the EJ22. 300k miles no problem.

 

Many others will agree - this has been discussed at long length around here.

 

GD

[MilesFox]

what's up fellow fox bretheren. i have an 88 sedan i converted from 2wd auto to 4wd 5spd. it has been t-boned on the passenger side but is totally driveable. i am not sure what i am gong to do with it other than run it on next year's ba/be rally (www.baberally.com) or maybe chop it up into some sort of tube chassis sandrail type thing.

 

i havent considered parting it out just because its still a compl;ete running and driving car.

 

if you would be interested in it i would let it go to the right person. or part it out to put together the right car. my guys in milwaukee have an 87 fwd wagon that owuld eb a good platform to build.

 

if you want a subaru you can just about go with anything you find, just for the simple fact you can put them together any way you like from parts form just about any other ubaru.

 

in fact, your username is the name of my car.

 

i am over here in madison, not too far away. unless you want to go out west for subarus, hit me up. milesfox@yahoo.com

 

here is a pic of the car as it is now, i also have an 87 rx build and a 95 legacy, and i always have an eye out for local soobs to end up with.

 

this car in particular has the following:

87 rx front struts and knuckles.

short block and trans from 88 4x4 wagon with appx 115,000 mi.

135,000 mi heads ported with a dremel

87 xt n/a cams(from dual port heads)

fold down rear gl-10 seats

60 amp alternator

h-style aluminum wheels and 185-75 tires.

other than that the car is stock layout besides the fact it once was a front drive automatic.

the car itself has about 220,000 miles, was originally a virginia car when we picked it up some 4-5 years ago

[silverfox]

Thanks, MilesFox. I was born & raised in Madison...back when it was a GREAT city to grow up in. Been all over since then though. I've been reading another thread as well as this one and it sounds like the Legacy, 90-95, with the EJ22 engine is the way to go for a relatively cheap but good Sooby. I think I would like one of those with an AT if the Duty C switch would work in one of those. I like the OBS too but don't know which years they were built or which engine they have. I think I'll start looking around now that all the nice people here have helped me with great info.

Fox

[MilesFox]

aside from no dual range or 13 inch tires my 95 legacy is a total champ in the snow this year, with new winter pike tires, its unstoppable. i can pass on the shoulder on the beltline towing a trailer in the unplowed shoulder.

 

and the car stops and goes on a dime as if it were just merely wet roads, and handles like gran turismo for sure!

 

i was pulling u-haul trucks and trailers out of the snow at work. the car has enough traction that you can stall it before the tires spin out. and this car has 262,000 miles with a used transmission

 

as far as overall traction i think you woukd be best with a manual 5spd, and i believe the rear diff is vlsd

 

the only place i have gotten my car stuck was in my own driveway trying to run the wall of snow left by the pl0w truck when i got a wheel off the ground. nothing some cat litter and a shovel couldnt let the car get out on its own, though

[silverfox]

OK....I found a really clean '94 Legacy LS, AWD, auto on ebay with a bad tranny. The car looks great except it's a sedan and not my favorite color.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/quatrro-all-wheel-drive-4x4-subaru-legacy-LS-like-new_W0QQitemZ320199556186QQihZ011QQcategoryZ31869QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

What I was thinking is that if the tranny wasn't an expensive fix it might be had for a steal and I could end up with a nice little car for an older guy like me. If it IS a sensor like they allude to it should be cheap to fix. Although, if it's a simple sensor why didn't THEY fix it and get more $ for the car?? I guess I'm asking what you guys think about this tranny? I think this is the tranny I could install the C switch in...is it not? Could this end up being a real high priced fix? Of course, if it isn't and now that I have shown it here...it may go for more money by some of the member's here bidding it up:) . In any case, what do you guys think...possibly a good deal to be had here? Or possibly a nightmare? The rest of the car looks cherry!

Fox