Mikldom Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Ok,, 1999 Legacy Outback 2.5, 165,000 miles, unknown as to timing belt replacements as I just bought it.. Please read on... I will explain in detail everything, and apologize for the length of this post. First off... NO Water/Bubbles on dipstick, or under oil cap. NO steam coming from tail pipe... read on.. With a thermostat installed, even a genuine subaru part, the car overheats every time.. not at idle but after driving it a short distance. I pull out the thermostat and install a 'gutted' thermostat, and it will not overheat, period. with the thermostat installed, the radiator would NEVER get hot, at all, I would pull the thermostat out, and the radiator side coolant coming out is cold, from behind is burning hot.. the thermostat will come out open, when hot, and I can slowly watch it close. with the 'gutted' thermo, it will run cool and I will have heat... I ran it over 200 miles like this with one exception.. If I purposely torque the engine up in the 4k range, and then go back to idle, the heat will then get cold and the radiator will get cold... if I unscrew the cap and vent it, plenty of air comes out, and the radiator will then get hot, and I will get heat again.. I ran it for 3 hours at highway speeds and it would never even get over 1/2 hot, and I could only deliberately get it to act weird.. keep in mind with gutted thermo installed. question 1.. Can the water pump just be bad? not circulating correctly with thermo installed, and just barely when thermo absent? could it be sucking air? The water pump DOES not screech or weep at all.. could this be why their is no exchange of hot/cold fluid when thermo installed? with thermo abset will run right, even cold (1/4 on guage), and can only get the radiator to get cold/heat cold, when I torque it up and then go back to idle to then vent and then the radiator gets hot and heat comes out and all is well. question 2.. even tho the engine runs awesome, sounds smooth, great power, no bubbles on dipstick, no steam out the back, that it is leaking the exhaust into the water system somewhere? I would think that if this was the case, then it would leak exhaust all the time, and continually overheat.. I cannot make it overheat with regular highway driving when thermos is absent, but would overheat in 5 minutes with regular driving with it installed.. The car is beautiful with not a scratch on it, inside and outside.. looks like it was well cared for. I did 'vet' the car for a few before I bought it, and it did not show any issues until we tried to drive it home (200 miles), and soon as I installed a gutted thermo, it made the trip no problem and never even got over 1/2. I am leaning towards water pump. thinking that the water pump just can't keep up, or is sucking air somewhere... btw, all hoses are good, look good, and don't look like they are bad. if it was a bad head gasket or warped head, would it not overheat 100% of time, and not just when I have a thermo installed.? I really need help, just bought it with cash, got it the 200 miles home, and need this car to run... I am comfortable running it all over town, but seeing that it will not run with a thermo installed, and without thermo I could torque it up (5k rpm), then come down, it looses heat and radiator goes cold until I vent the cap by hand.. and it doesn't really lose coolant. seeing that a water pump is only 48 bux at Advance, should I replace as a cautionary measure? but it is a little bit of work. I am about to get this to a dealer, but want to rule things out first.. I know A head gasket is about a grand to do, and I can likely do it myself if I had a week to do it, but I am excellent on EA81's , just not these, and not the time to do it. I am in N.E. NC, close enough to Hampton Roads/Williamsburg, richmond, raleigh, outerbanks, maybe further if somebody here is willling to work on it...as I trust the sube mechanics here, way before I trust the dealer. PLEASE HELP ME.. I hope this did not go too long and that I answered the most common questions in this post.. THANKS!!! /mike mikldom@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea#3 Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 It's the head gaskets With the rad cap off and fill the radiator to the top of the neck then do a leak down test on the engine If the coolant level starts rising the head gaskets are gone SEA#3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikldom Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 How to accomplish said leak down test? My understanding that if exhaust was pushing into coolant (not coolant into combustion chamber), then it is possible it is a "one-way" street. Since no steam coming out, and no bubbles, is this still a possibility? Thanks for the post... Will a compression test confirm? I am troubled that she runs fine with no thermostat, but as soon as one is installed, overheats in 5 minutes.. It's the head gaskets With the rad cap off and fill the radiator to the top of the neck then do a leak down test on the engine If the coolant level starts rising the head gaskets are gone SEA#3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea#3 Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Click on the link http://www.type2.com/library/engineg/leaktst.htm The reason the engine doesn't overheat when you gut the thermosats is you don't give the air a chance to get trapped in the top cross over pipe ,which goes into the heater core which eventualy goes back to the pump and causes an air lock in pump/cooling system SEA#3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 [...]First off... NO Water/Bubbles on dipstick, or under oil cap. NO steam coming from tail pipe... read on..[...]Those aren't the things that typically happen when the HGs go bad on the EJ engines. [...]if I unscrew the cap and vent it, plenty of air comes out[...]If you're saying that "air" is under pressure, then it's probably exhaust gases, not "air". You can often detect the exhaust smell, if there's enough gas. The cooling system on EJ engines needs to be carefully "burped", and even in a warm climate coolant/antifreeze (about 50% concentration) should be used. If you've done that, unfortunately it's likely at least one HG is bad, just perhaps not enough to be spewing coolant out the reservoir overflow all the time. If you get HG work done, both sides should be replaced with the latest OEM gaskets and the correct torqueing procedure should be used. At the same time, it would be prudent to change the timing belt (as well as idlers, tensioner, and water pump, unless you can verify that any were recently replaced). As WAWalker would likely tell you, make sure that valve adjustment isn't ignored . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Subarus dont smoke whne HG go back. They also dont suffer from eroded impellers on the water pump. Do replace the radiator cap and clean the radiator nneck. One possability is a clogged radiator. Another is a air bubble in the cooling system. Put the T-stat back in the car. With the car running, SLOWLY fill the cooling system (make sure the radiator air vent is open. Wait for the thermostate to open, you wil see a surge of fluid out of the radiator neck. Top off the fluid, again slowly. Close the air vent, look for bubbles in the coolant. Make sure the overflow tank is filled to the hot line. Drive the car around the block. Shut the car off and let it cool down. Check the coolant level. Start the car with the cap off, monitoring the engine temp and coolant level. Top off if needed. Go for a test drive. If that has no effect, then you have to start looking deeper. Since you are always over heating, do a wet and dry compression test. This doesnt always show a bad HG, but not everyone has an air compressor at home to do a good leakdown test, and its a simple place to start. Its a fail/maybe test. There are also products around to test for exhaust gasses in the coolant. ALso no matter what, you wil be needing a new timing belt, seals, and a waterpump (while your there, insurance against murphy). good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Howdy Mike, It has been said that when the thermostat cover is removed that the H20 pump's impellor can be seen. You could look and see if it is not looking like the pictures recently posted. You know the H20 pump is driven by the timing belt as thus to replace it, the front of the engine must come apart. The air you vent out is troubling, are you burping the system after every t-stat change? If so The "air" could be combustion gases. You could smell the air when you vent it or have it sniffed by a local emission shop. If this is the case - sorry join the club. I do not see why taking it to 4k RPM makes any difference except for the engine is producing more combustion gas and cylinder pressures could be higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 From what you state about this trouble it seems to me there is a headgasket problem , sorry to say. Like Skip said, I suggest you have the coolant sniffed for emissions in it. I think that will confirm the trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikldom Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 I was careful to burp the system when filling, each and every time. I do have an air compressor, but I am leaning towards a HG being bad. I have read enough that these fail and don't burn coolant, but leak exhaust into the coolant system, create pockets of air, and then overheating is eminent. It really sucks that I just bought the thing, and was assured it was perfect from the little car dealer in D.C. I am over 200 miles away at home, and will likely try to get him to pay for 1/2, and if he tells me to "take a hike" then I will file a formal complaint with the D.C. Indpedent dealers association. I paid $3900 for a car that is otherwise PERFECT. Transmission is awesome, engine has awesome power, everything works, and not a scratch on the inside, nor the outside. The "private party" value for this car according to Kelley Blue Book is $6500. I feel that if it costs a grand to fix it, and in that endeavor the timing belts are changed, as well as the water pump, then I should be able to go 100k miles before anything major happens. I will likely get the transmission serviced as well for good measure. What sucks is that we sold a perfectly good 1999 Honda Passport with only 100k miles on it to buy this, so we would have no car payment, and needed good gas mileage. The OB has a little over 200 miles on the trip odemeter, and it is just under 1/2 on the gas guage.. It does ride and look awesome.. just sux to have to fix it right after we get it.. I should have taken a little more time with it before I bought it, but it suffered no ill effects under test drive, etc. Thanks for listening.. NOW, do we know of any competent mechanics we trust in the Eastern Virginia Area? Anybody with some time on their hands willing here? /mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Join the club, there are many stories just like yours on this forum. I would be VERY VERY carefull buying any 2.5 with 120K on the motor. It's not if but when will HG blow. Sorry for your pain, its sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikldom Posted January 15, 2008 Author Share Posted January 15, 2008 I am to understand that with the newest revision of the head gaskets, I should not have any problems once it is fixed? The dealer told my wife that if the car was six months older, it would have qualified under recall.. they looked it up via the VIN.. I do have a competent mechanic working on the car this week.. should have a new head gasket, new timing belts, and new water pump, wires, plugs, etc... I should be set, shouldn't I? This engine isn't bad, is it? at least it was/is bad until the original Head Gasket blows, but after that.. every thing should be well? btw.,, West Chester Dude, I am currently in Quakertown, and was broke down today in Jersey with my 84 GL.. turned out to be a broke/bad ignition coil, replaced that and all is well.. thanks again!!! /mike Join the club, there are many stories just like yours on this forum. I would be VERY VERY carefull buying any 2.5 with 120K on the motor. It's not if but when will HG blow. Sorry for your pain, its sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Yes you should be set with a new timing belt water pump cam and main seal, reseal the oil pump. Wires are up to you. The determening factor on weather the engine is good or not is if it was driven with the temp gauge pegged. If it was, this is what is called cooking the engine. The block gets so hot that the cylinder liners shift or come loose. At this point the engine is scrap. You should also have an oil change, as the oil does get stressed when the engine overheats or runs hot. Its just extra insurance. Try contacting subaru directly and see what they say, they may make a deal. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikldom Posted January 15, 2008 Author Share Posted January 15, 2008 I guess I will know shortly.. the car was driven with it pegged, but immediately shut down.. The engine does not make any noises at all.. runs smoothly, no bumping, jumping, etc. Just can't run it with a thermo installed. Today my wife drove it 50 miles to my preferred shop, and it never got over 1/2.. and she run's great.. I am just hoping the heads or the block isn't crap.. I am keeping my fingers crossed. taking the heads off, should show evidence of the cylinder linings shifting or coming loose? I don't think so, as It would probably run like crap, but I should know in a day or two. I will keep you updated.. I don't want to go shopping for a used engine ( thanks again!!! Yes you should be set with a new timing belt water pump cam and main seal, reseal the oil pump. Wires are up to you. The determening factor on weather the engine is good or not is if it was driven with the temp gauge pegged. If it was, this is what is called cooking the engine. The block gets so hot that the cylinder liners shift or come loose. At this point the engine is scrap. You should also have an oil change, as the oil does get stressed when the engine overheats or runs hot. Its just extra insurance. Try contacting subaru directly and see what they say, they may make a deal. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 actually it sounds good. If the liners shifted she wouldnt have been able to drive it 50 miles. You should be repaired then good for 200,000 miles. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 actually it sounds good. If the liners shifted she wouldnt have been able to drive it 50 miles. Kinda off topic, but actually they can still run pretty damn good with the shifted liners. I picked up an abused Turbo beater, and drove it for about a year and ahalf as a delivery car. Didn't know until I tore it down 3 of the 4 cylinder walls had moved, alot! And where over .025 out of round:eek: . It had lost alot of compression by the time I tore it down though. But to the point at hand, I think sadly it may be a HG. But I would consider at least trying a new radiator, and a proper fill and vent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Kinda off topic, but actually they can still run pretty damn good with the shifted liners. I picked up an abused Turbo beater, and drove it for about a year and ahalf as a delivery car. Didn't know until I tore it down 3 of the 4 cylinder walls had moved, alot! And where over .025 out of round:eek: . It had lost alot of compression by the time I tore it down though. Maybe they can, but i couldnt justify someone spending 1500 bucks on a repair on a risk like that. And yours really didnt run all that well, since it lost alot of compression. The turbo was probably helping to overcome that... now imagine if you had full compression nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Maybe they can, but i couldnt justify someone spending 1500 bucks on a repair on a risk like that. And yours really didnt run all that well, since it lost alot of compression. The turbo was probably helping to overcome that... now imagine if you had full compression nipper More off topic, but.....I wasn't suggesting he run that motor, or rebuild it or anything. I was just saying that just cause it will run, doesn't rule out hifting of the liners. Unfortunatlety, just pulling the heads you can't really tell if the liner has spun. Other than checking roundness, and taper, you can't tell unless you pull the wrist pin plugs and piston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 More off topic, but.....I wasn't suggesting he run that motor, or rebuild it or anything. I was just saying that just cause it will run, doesn't rule out hifting of the liners. Unfortunatlety, just pulling the heads you can't really tell if the liner has spun. Other than checking roundness, and taper, you can't tell unless you pull the wrist pin plugs and piston. well not-too-far-off-topic topic nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikldom Posted January 16, 2008 Author Share Posted January 16, 2008 guys,, thanks for the advice.. "pee" test done on the coolant, and it failed... Exhaust in the coolant.. Most likely diagnosis, HG failure.. gonna start to be teared down tomorrow.. I am confident nothing is really messed up, because it runs pheonominal (sorry spelling), great power, and I can only get it to vent exhaust into the coolant if I run the engine revs to 4-5k range, and then go down.. Heck, I drove it 160 miles last saturday and she ran perfect the whole time... I never took it on a high rev, but don't need to in that car.. 2500 rpm goes about 65-70 miles per hour... I am happy with the car, the power is awesome, fuel mileage is great... I will just look at this as a minor bump (1300$ bump,), and unless crack in head/block, all should be well with new HG's, timing belt(s), and water pump.. I was assured only genuine Subaru HG's will be used, as well as water pump, and I already have the genuine subaru thermostat... Now to write a letter to that crappy little dealer and threaten to run him into the state attorney general's office, and the independent dealers association for selling me a car with a blown HG.. I asked him to pay 1/2, and he did not say no, but would get back to me, and you see how far that got. thanks for listening... btw... my 84 is running great up here in good 'ol PA/NJ, and the coil was the culprit and all is well.. going home (NC) on friday night.. then working in the state of NC for about 6 weeks (yeah!!!)/ /mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfox Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Yup...it's stories like these that detered me from buying that cherry, Florida, OBW Limited with 80K. That deal could still be made but I'm hesitant to fork over the dough for the car and then tear it down and do the HG's as well as the pump etc as a maintenance precaution. That's expensive maintenance. The other problem is that, in doing all this, one can never be certain that the mechanic did everything right and problems might pop up all over again down the road. I really hate to have to tear a good running Subaru engine apart that has been well maintained and has only 80K on it but it seems the right thing to do as a safegaurd against the possibility of frying the engine. The whole reason I wanted a Subaru again is that they are dynamite in the snow and have always had a bullet proof engine. Seems that is no longer the case. I think the bore out to 2.5 was simply too much for that boxer engine. Like the Ford 3.8. The Ford 3.0 is a long running engine but the old 3.8 has been discontinued because of VERY similar issues that the Subaru 2.5 now has. Incidentally, Mikldom...that dealer that sold you that car may very well not have known of any problems with the engine. It may have never acted up on the lot and he really believed it was a great car. Hard to say, though. Anyway, I'm still afraid to buy a new generation Subaru and the older ones jus don't have enough power for me. I found that cherry Limited and now am shying away from it. I think you are doing the right thing and it should last a long, long time. I just don't like the idea of buying that cherry Limited and then tearing apart a perfectly good running engine. But...if I didn't tear it apart I would shudder everytime I turned the key wondering if this is the day the HG's go. The unfortunate moral of the story is...I guess the Suby's just ain't what they used to be. Unless you redo them. Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 I guess the Suby's just ain't what they used to be. Unless you redo them.Fox Cute, but tiny little rust buckets that were underpowered? (having owned three of them). nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfox Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 You're right, nipper. On both counts. But the engines were near bullet proof and the FWD/4WD systems were outstanding. I would love to have my old hatch back. Underpowered 1.8 and all. Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 You're right, nipper. On both counts. But the engines were near bullet proof and the FWD/4WD systems were outstanding. I would love to have my old hatch back. Underpowered 1.8 and all.Fox So would I nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikldom Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 I still have my little 1.8 (84 GL dual range, 4inch lift, 15inch pugs, safari rack, etc)... but I wanted a really nice car for the wife.. got one, just f... up.. ok.. here is the damage.. picking it up on monday. HG's all done, with new genuine subaru timing belts, genuine subaru water pump, and head gaskets.. Turns out, the oil pan was dented, and had to get a brand new geniune subaru oil pan.. in the process. had to get new transmission lines.. new plugs and new plug wires, oil, etc. the grand total is a little over $2,000.. this sux big time, but I am confident in the shop's ability that fixed it, and they chased it down all the way, and they would not give it back to me f'up... they assured me of the same warranty of the dealer... thanks.. /mike You're right, nipper. On both counts. But the engines were near bullet proof and the FWD/4WD systems were outstanding. I would love to have my old hatch back. Underpowered 1.8 and all.Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 How did you manage to dent the oil pan? nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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