Idle and TPS question....

[Spinnaker]

Hello Guys,

 

My car is an '88 GL Wagon EA82. I have been having problems lately and I need someone to tell me if I'm on the right track.... I had to replace the CTS a few weeks ago to fix a no start issue. The cap, rotor, plugs, wires, fuel/air filters, and PCV have all been replace within the last month.

 

Problem One:

Ok, the car starts HARD in the morning.... Like I have to use starting fluid hard. For the rest of the day it's not too bad.

 

Problem Two:

The car idles at about 1250-1500 RPMs. After a minute or so the idle will start to falter. It will drop about 250-500 RPM and then it will return.

 

Problem Three:

When driving it has big dead spots in the throttle. When you hit one of these spots it will stumble very badly. I think I hear the motor pinging when it stumbles. You can feel it stumble if you rev the motor in neutral, but it's not nearly as back. Almost like it's a cylinder miss.

 

Also, there is NO POWER over 4000 RPMs. You can still get up to the higher RPMs but there is no pulling power.

 

I tested the TPS per the FSM. It read .5ohms - 3.5ohms. Not even close to the 3.5 - 8.5 called for in the FSM. This leads me to believe that its the problem with the flat spot/stumble. I'm I correct?

 

My thought is that if I replace the TPS then I can also lower the idle without having stalling issues. I also intend to clean the filter that is at the fuel pump which I haven't done yet. That my also be contributing to the no power over 4k issue.

 

Please let me know if I'm on the right track here. This car is getting less fun to drive everyday.

 

Thanks for the help guys!

Tim

[ivantruckman]

is their a junk yard near you. if you could get a known good tps and swap it out. i have been havang similar problems, if you go all over the engine compartment and look for ground straps and clean them it may help also.

if the problem is only when its cold out , i dont think a tps would make that much difference. ill pull my tps out of my spare engine and do a vom test, and see if it matches yours, somtimes manuals can be wrong

[Spinnaker]

Thanks for the reply...

 

Ok, I went to the JY and got another TPS. The ohms read much higher than the one on my car (2.45 - 6.8) but still not where the FMS says it should be.

 

I'll let you know what happens.

Tim

[Spinnaker]

Ok.... So I replaced the TPS with a known good unit. I also replaced the IAC valve. Now the car will not start.

 

It is NOT getting any fuel. There is nothing coming out of the injector. When I pulled the fuel line off of the regulator it sprayed all over the place so there IS fuel to the reg.

 

Any Ideas guys?

Thanks,

Tim

[azsubaru]

Is the injector plugged in/working? IIRC, you can check it by plugging in the Dcheck connector, then the injector should click continuously.

[Skip]

Hello Spinnaker, this is the Jib, I may be furling!!

Tighten' up man.

 

 

Check to make sure you plugged in all the connections

and did not knacker the large vacuum line.

 

 

If you put some fuel down the throttle body

does it fire for a short period?

[Spinnaker]

If you pull in a bit of the sheet we can stop you from luffing Mr. Jib.... Tack on three! Ok.... that was lame... I wonder if we have lost anyone yet?

 

Ok... It will fire up for a moment if I prime the motor with fuel down that throttle body. I removed the throttle body as one whole unit when I replaced the TPS. Meaning that I did have to remove all the vacuum and such. I believe that all of them got hooked back up correctly. I do not recall ever hearing the injector cycle. But I did not run a D-check yet.

 

Yesterday, before I pulled it all apart I did get a IAC code from the ECU so I changed that at the same time.

 

I do have a spare injector that I picked up so I may try swapping that in it see if it makes a difference.

[Skip]

Hey Spinny, I think it's the leech of the mainsal(sic) that's

causing this, I only get it when we're wing on wing

oh -- THREE - duck!!!

There are many of us "Canvas power " freaks floating around.

 

Good idea on

pulling the throttle body, sure makes it easier to get to

the TPS let alone the IAC.

 

Since it fires on a dribble, it kinda shows the injector is not injecting as you say.

 

Here is one real WAG.

 

If you hold the skinny pedal to the metal

The ECU goes into a "clear the flood" mode

and will not inject gas.

 

Could something in the TPS/wiring be telling the

ECU to think it's at WOT?

[Spinnaker]

hmmm... I played with the TPS and made sure that I had not set the High Ohm threshold above 8.5 Ohms. More like I can only get it to max out at about 6.5 Ohms or so.

 

I think that I will pull the injector connector and hit it with some 9V juice it see if it will cycle. That way I don't have to pull it if I don't have too cause I'M LAZY!!!!!

 

Yeah.... I sailed to Hawaii in '02 in the Vic/Maui 2002 Yatch Race... And I don't think that I'll go that far offshore again.... The boat was a 65" steel ketch. Something like 22,000 lbs boat.... Not the best for a race boat.... But we did have a big tv and enough food to make the boat list about 4 degrees! HEHEHE... That boat was odd to have wing on wing... We hit a storm two days out of the Straight of Juan de Fuca with 60mph winds and 20-25 feet swells. Most boats ran for shore or ran small sails. We put up as much material was we could.... Had the bath towels up too! We where haul a$$!. Two days later we got stuck in the Pacific High and averaged something like 3-4 knots that rest of the way..... Heavy boats don't like light wind..... Urmm... Ok...

 

Tim

[daeron]

take a step back.

 

 

This is the complete fuel intake manifold. You need the coil, disty, and starter wired up right, and all of this plugged in right, (plus the MAF) and it all runs.

 

I didn't take the time to circle everything, but here we have the fuel injector and IAC plugs right up front, very easy to confuse accidentally. There are also two vacuum solenoids plus the CTS on this piece, as well as the temp gauge sender (i think?) but the IAC and the injector are the two BIG things here.

 

 

 

Fuji Heavy Industries gave us a GREAT car......

 

..but they DID make it awful easy to confuse the IAC and injector plugs.

 

 

Make sure each is plugged in, and make sure each is plugged into the right place.

 

Failing that, I would suggest another TPS, although it *could* yet be a sticky or clogged injector, a failed injector (seems unlikely, but that may have been part of your problem to start with?) or a wiring issue that has been brought to fore by the recent work you have done....

 

Were you able to install the TPS and get resistance readings that corresponded to the throttle opening?? If not, you really need to have a TPS in there that tells the ECU the right thing.

 

Just for the purposes of the thread:

 

It says 6.5, not 8.5 for the spec. your TPS should be OK. The important part here is where it discusses the "2.4KOhm" for WOT... or "about 80% of the resistance between B and D"

 

The TPS does a few things.. first off, it tells the ECU where the gas pedal is, and whether you are accelerating or decelerating. This is the only thing that tells the ECU any of this. It also sends a signal at idle, and the ECU reads that ~2.4KOhm as a Wide Open Throttle signal. In reality, it is nothing more than a simple potentiometer (think volume knob on a guitar amp or old stereo) but the jobs it performs are fairly numerous, and fairly important, for such a simple piece of equipment.

 

If throwing parts at it fails, and everything tests right, then you are left facing a wiring problem. Get someone to crank it while you massage every inch of wire going to every main EFI component you can reach... Try checking the TPS output with your multimeter, but do it down under the steering wheel, at the ECU plug. The TPS could be perfectly fine; if the wires transmitting the signal to the ECU are buggered, the signal will be buggered.

 

HTH, sorry it was such a long post.

[Spinnaker]

Awesome post! No worries one the length.... I like complete and through conversations....

 

Ok... I have the IAC and the injectors connected to the correct harness leads. I do not believe that you can swap the plugs... ie. they are not interchangeable.

 

I shall have to check over the wiring this afternoon. I must say... These cars are easy to work on.... But I still prefer to work on my '93 Mustang as I worked for Ford for a while and know them well.

 

Thanks!

Tim

[Skip]

Yea HA!!

A hearty WELL DONE

to daeron for that post!!

 

Spin, I am sure you know the

diagnostic connectors are by the drivers side

hood hinge.

 

You probably also know plugging the white

set in causes many sysyems to cycle

The fuel pump being one of them.

 

I like your idea about "juicing" the injector.

Since it is a "duty cycle" type devise

I doubt 9Vdc will hurt it and should, as you suspect,

open it.

With the fuel pump in cycle on off mode

you should see gas coming from the injector.

 

Good luck, Dearon set you up with good info.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the story of your Yatching outing,

sounds like fun, until the doldrum like winds anyhow.

My home was a small 24 foot Irwin 10/4 live aboard.

She was blue water worthy and

had a 10' 4" beam -> was very heavy

(read serious displacement).

I used her on this side of the 48 in a small body of brakish

called the Chesepeke Bay.

(my nickname Skip comes from being the Skipper)

[Gloyale]

 

It is NOT getting any fuel. There is nothing coming out of the injector. When I pulled the fuel line off of the regulator it sprayed all over the place so there IS fuel to the reg.

 

You've got the fuel lines revered. The output from the filter goes to the lower, forward most tube. The return line comes OUT of the regulator(the bent tube rearward)

[Spinnaker]

You know... About the U-check/D-check connectors.... I have the green connectors... But there is no White one.... There IS a pair of wires right next to the green connector that are male/female spades.... just no actual "plug". Could someone verify the wire colors for the white plug? I assume that this is the proper wires as they are not connected...

 

 

When the owner of the boat bought it it was a BAD shape. It was the product of a nasty divorce. The husband dismantled just about everything on the boat so that the wife would not want it.... I lived on the boat for about a year working full time to rebuild/replace/repair everything to get it sea worthy again. That included all the teak wood work, rewiring the whole boat, adding the fresh water makers, installing the radar (buy myself up the mast...), setting up the sideband. I also had to dive down under the boat to retrieve MANY parts that the PO had tossed over the side in the marina. I also had to source out sails as there where none on the boat when it was purchased... Mind you I knew NOTHING about sail boats before I started this project. I also had to rebuild the Perkins engine too. Good thing I like engine work.

 

PS.. I recommend that you pay someone else to do the zincs... I almost died trying to do them myself....

[Spinnaker]

You've got the fuel lines revered. The output from the filter goes to the lower, forward most tube. The return line comes OUT of the regulator(the bent tube rearward)

 

Hmmm.... I will check this when I get home! I'd be ober pissed if it was that simple. Though that does sound like something I'd do....

 

Tim

[daeron]

Yea HA!!

A hearty WELL DONE

to daeron for that post!!

 

You flatter me, I simply have diarrhea of the keyboard

 

 

my idea on the plugs was one of those hunches you get when you read someone else's problem online.. "He probly did THIS wrong!" The type of thing thats bound to be an inaccurate guess, but you have to shout out anyhow just to rule it out.

 

I can't tell you exactly which pins to hit, but I would definitely be running a D-check on this ECU, and test the TPS values at the ECU plug to verify that the wires are working right. while you are at it, there is a resistance check across the injector itself. Test that, again both at the injector plug, and at the ECU plug.

 

The only way for you to track this down is to methodically run test after test, starting with what seems the most likely. Tedious as that may sound, its really a remarkably simple system with relatively few big areas for trouble to crop up. It sounds like you've held a wrench or six before, so it cannot be too awfully difficult. The multimeter is your best friend with this car! Well, the multimeter, AND the guy who wrote the self-diagnostics on the ECU....

[Skip]

I think Gloyale gets a

BINGO!!

 

Well done G.

 

Too many times I overlook the obvious in search of

the complicated, again well done.

 

On the test connectors my bad, I am an MPFI guy (used to be)

The SPFI must be white and green. The green ones are what I meant to mention.

 

Both sets should have matching counter components neither should

be plugged in when using the car.

 

Try this link but knowing yours are under the hood.

(do not be mis lead by the bold words at the top)

http://www.troublecodes.net/Subaru/

 

 

Spinnaker,

Your boating prowess is now something to be admired!!

You'll figure this simple SPFI bit out in no time!!

[Spinnaker]

you know, I can rebuild a boat or engines no problem.... But I still have a hard time cooking a damn hot pocket in the microwave...

 

I have found that the best way to cook is .... Nice a crispy on the outside... Damn... now I'm hungry!

 

Alright, I'll get you guys know how it goes!

[Spinnaker]

Ok.... I am a DUMB rump roast!!!! I had the fuel lines backwards. So it fires up now.

 

But It still has a bit of stumbling when the pedal is pressed about mid way down. I also think that now I need to replace the micky mouse gasket. I'm getting a fairly hardy ticking that I have not had in the past..... And the oil pressure gauge is reading close to ZERO. But that is were it has always been since I got the car.

 

Thanks for the help guys!

Tim

[Skip]

Way kewl Tim,

Give Gloyale the credit for this one.

 

You might try a Seafoam treatment in the petrol tank.

The injector could want a bit of cleaning.

 

The TOD can be Mickey or some other things.

 

Might wanna try some Marvel Mystery oil in the crankcase.

 

Lots of people have had luck with it.

Takes a hundred miles or so to work it's magic.

 

As for the low reading on the OP gauge.

 

Many say go aftermarket.

 

Some say (my expierence here) try another oil pressure

sender unit first.

[Spinnaker]

Good info on the sending unit. It had the TOD before but now it was more like the KOD (Knock of Doom). Sounds like a bottom end knock more than a lifter area sound. I shall try the Marvel oil today as I am right in the middle of pulling the oil pump and doing the timing belts.

 

I'll keep ya posted!

Tim

[ScottG]

Don't feel bad, Spinnaker. I did the same thing last fall - removing the SPFI to adjust the TPS - I reversed the fuel lines & wound up with a situation exactly like yours. (And I've never rebuilt a boat engine, except for a small outboard).

 

As other members have said,....it's easy to reverse some of this stuff, & not recognize what you've done. No need to beat yourself up....It's all part of the Subie learning curve.

 

ScottG