My Time Has Come - Another 2.5 HG

[subsince77]

197,000 almost trouble free miles, but now my time has come to join the ranks of the 2.5 HG victims. My biggest regret is that I was unable to break grossgary's statement that he has NEVER seen a 2.5 get past 200,000 without blowing the HG - so close to victory.

 

The problem has developed so subtly that, although I knew the odds, I still tried another thermostat and a new radiator. In fact even now, this car will run around close to home just fine, and will not overheat unless I take it out on the highway and run above 65 for a while.

 

Anyway, sorry for the length of this but I would like some opinions on where to go from here. The car is in great shape. No problems that I know of with the tranny (manual) or driveline. It has new rear axles, and a clutch with only 20,000 miles on it. Brand new radiator - that's a bonus. It was within a short time of needing a full timing belt/water pump/valve adjustment job. i would guess it will need new front axles at some point, was re-booted at 113,000, no noise but they can't go forever.

 

I know the general thought is go with a 2.2, I am considering it, but still leaning toward the 2.5. Emily says that CCR has not had any blown HG's on 2.5's with the new gaskets.

 

I don't have the tools or skills to do this myself, or a really good Subaru shop in town, so my options right now are: Take the car to a dealership that I have worked with and do trust. They are about 3 hours away from here. They will do the Hg job, Timing belt/WP and etc. job, for about $2000. That includes machining the head surfaces, but no valve work. Add $500 if I want the heads gone through completely. I am assuming at 200K it would at least need some exhaust valves. So around $2500.

 

Or trailer the car 4.5 hours to Denver and have CCR install one of their rebuilds for about $3100 assuming I get my core charge back. A 2.2 is about $600 less, but I have to say that, for me, this has been a good engine and I really like the power, especially living at 8000' and driving passes a lot.

 

Any thoughts?

[screwbaru2]

You sound like a battered wife he hurt me but I love him. The 2.5 is a great engine right up to the time it craps the bed on ya. Go for the 2.2L

[msmithmmx]

Seems like cash is not a problem, go with a 2.5 and do the valve work.

[subsince77]

Seems like cash is not a problem, go with a 2.5 and do the valve work.

 

No, actually cash is a big issue, but so is the logistical problem of where to do the repair. We have tended to keep our cars a long time over the years, so I need to do a good enough job to get another, well, 100K would be nice.

 

I think the valve work is a given. I guess the question is whether the CCR engine with many more new components is a better deal for the extra money and time investment.

 

Thanks

[lmdew]

Go with CCR if you are going to put in that much money!

 

Then you have a new engine not just new heads

[idosubaru]

My biggest regret is that I was unable to break grossgary's statement that he has NEVER seen a 2.5 get past 200,000 without blowing the HG - so close to victory

i've never said that, if i implied it i apologize. these motors do make 200,000 without blowing the head gaskets.

 

replacing the head gaskets is a very reliable solution. i'm all about CCR, but with financial concerns and a 200,000 mile car i would not feel the least bit concerned recommending having the head gaskets replaced.

 

for the cost of a CCR engine maybe you'd expect to make 400,000 miles...it could happen but i bet the odds are stacked against you...accidents, transmission issues, drive train, ujoints, rust, paint, and most annoying the suspension will start to wear on you (bushings all over the place, struts, etc...). there's a lot that can happen over that amount of time and mileage.

 

or you could replace the headgaskets and have a good chance of the engine lasting as long as you want to keep the car anyway. i'm all about CCR but if finances are a concern i'd consider this.

 

a very important part of this decision is how much you trust the person doing the work....are thy looking out for you or making a buck? are they going to do a good job. if you're confident with that, i would be confident with the head gasket replacement.

[Skip]

The other consideration is

 

You live in THE coldest place in the lower 48.

 

You also have probably over 2 foot of fresh white chit.

 

Getting your car fixed correctly means a lot

more to you than to

some of us not so

 

"environmentally challenged".

 

Good luck sir, very beautiful country you live in

but not for me.

[subsince77]

i've never said that, if i implied it i apologize. these motors do make 200,000 without blowing the head gaskets.

Sorry grossgary, I must have misquoted you. In one of my recent marathon reads of the HG threads, I ran across that statement by someone in a semi-heated exchange where you guys were trying to convince someone that they did indeed probably have an HG problem. My apologies.

 

More importantly, thanks for the perspective. The shop I am thinking about is a dealer in Grand Junction, CO. I have never been fond of dealers, but my experience with this particular shop, and that of several other people I know, has been very good. However, another nice benefit of going with CCR is the 3 year warranty, although, 36,000 miles is probably more like 1.5 years - no guarantees with the dealer I don't think. I found out that a friend of mine that runs a towing business has to take one of his trucks over to Grand Junction soon for some work, so I think I have a free ride over there - another plus in that column.

 

for the cost of a CCR engine maybe you'd expect to make 400,000 miles...it could happen but i bet the odds are stacked against you...accidents, transmission issues, drive train, ujoints, rust, paint, and most annoying the suspension will start to wear on you (bushings all over the place, struts, etc...). there's a lot that can happen over that amount of time and mileage.

 

or you could replace the headgaskets and have a good chance of the engine lasting as long as you want to keep the car anyway. i'm all about CCR but if finances are a concern i'd consider this.

 

Good points. I do want/need to keep it awhile. If money was no issue I would be looking for an 06 OBW. I think the difference between reworking this engine, and a CCR boils down to $600-$700.

 

Maybe it would be worth a compression test on this engine to see how things are looking.

 

 

Please permit me a couple more questions:

 

What do you all think about the clutch situation - only 20,000 on it, should I replace it while the engine is out?

 

As for the timing parts, I emphasized to the dealership that his is the second round on this car. They said they would inspect the tensioner and pulleys, but seldom replace them. Does that sound right, or should I just insist on new parts? Can you tell how worn a tensioner is by feeling or listening to it?

 

One last thing. I have a mechanic friend, not a Subaru guy, that is quite frustrated with me because I am convinced this car has a bad HG. He is used to seeing Toyotas with blown HG's. Every time he starts them they shoot a gysere out of the radiator, they blow hoses etc., lots of pressure all the time.

 

Mine will run for weeks without even overheating, then one day heat up. Yesterday is actually the very first time since this started, that the car pushed any coolant out into the reservoir, the first time it ever blew cold air through the heater, and the first time it didn't return to a normal temp after being shut off for just a few minutes. Somedays, I can run it for an hour on the highway no problem, other days it will heat up after 20 minutes.

 

Why the intermittent nature of the Subaru headgasket problem?

 

Thanks again to all.

[jon38iowa]

197,000 almost trouble free miles, but now my time has come to join the ranks of the 2.5 HG victims. My biggest regret is that I was unable to break grossgary's statement that he has NEVER seen a 2.5 get past 200,000 without blowing the HG - so close to victory.

 

The problem has developed so subtly that, although I knew the odds, I still tried another thermostat and a new radiator. In fact even now, this car will run around close to home just fine, and will not overheat unless I take it out on the highway and run above 65 for a while.

 

Anyway, sorry for the length of this but I would like some opinions on where to go from here. The car is in great shape. No problems that I know of with the tranny (manual) or driveline. It has new rear axles, and a clutch with only 20,000 miles on it. Brand new radiator - that's a bonus. It was within a short time of needing a full timing belt/water pump/valve adjustment job. i would guess it will need new front axles at some point, was re-booted at 113,000, no noise but they can't go forever.

 

I know the general thought is go with a 2.2, I am considering it, but still leaning toward the 2.5. Emily says that CCR has not had any blown HG's on 2.5's with the new gaskets.

 

I don't have the tools or skills to do this myself, or a really good Subaru shop in town, so my options right now are: Take the car to a dealership that I have worked with and do trust. They are about 3 hours away from here. They will do the Hg job, Timing belt/WP and etc. job, for about $2000. That includes machining the head surfaces, but no valve work. Add $500 if I want the heads gone through completely. I am assuming at 200K it would at least need some exhaust valves. So around $2500.

 

Or trailer the car 4.5 hours to Denver and have CCR install one of their rebuilds for about $3100 assuming I get my core charge back. A 2.2 is about $600 less, but I have to say that, for me, this has been a good engine and I really like the power, especially living at 8000' and driving passes a lot.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I say go with the CCR 2.5. You are fortunate to live so close to them. I am positive the 2.2 is a better engine, but I like the extra horse Power of the 2.5.

just my 2 cents

Ps. Congratulations on your mileage. Still very respectable, in this age of 100K designed cars.

[idosubaru]

What do you all think about the clutch situation - only 20,000 on it, should I replace it while the engine is out?

i'd leave it if it was replaced properly. make sure the pilot bearing, throw out bearing and clips were all replaced 20,000 miles ago, anything that wasn't should be, they are very cheap and access is already granted. if you wear the clutch for some reason then replace it, otherwise it should be fine.

 

As for the timing parts, I emphasized to the dealership that his is the second round on this car. They said they would inspect the tensioner and pulleys, but seldom replace them. Does that sound right, or should I just insist on new parts? Can you tell how worn a tensioner is by feeling or listening to it?.

 

yes you can. wear isn't the main problem, it is lack of grease. and yes you can tell a lack of grease by feel or listening to them. at this age/mileage i would doubt none of them need replaced. at least the bottom sprocketed pulley should be replaced, and probably more. personally with this much money going into an interference engine i would replace them. but then again i buy the cheap ebay kits, not high dollar dealer stuff on these items. at 200,000 you're expecting the original pulleys to go another 100,000, that's a lot.

 

One last thing. I have a mechanic friend, not a Subaru guy, that is quite frustrated with me because I am convinced this car has a bad HG. He is used to seeing Toyotas with blown HG's.

 

just tell him he's wrong and people that know more about subaru's than he does are helping you. i run into the same thing but the opposite way...i'll help someone with a vehicle and it won't make sense to me because i'm used to subaru's, that is about all i do, at least to an in depth extent.

 

Why the intermittent nature of the Subaru headgasket problem?

Thanks again to all.

 

what you are experiencing is completely normal for an EJ25 leak. rather than rehash it here, you can revisit the "why EJ25 headgaskets fail" threads, there's one really good one...and others as well.

[cookie]

These Subaru gasket problem is a bit of a bear to diagnose compared to other vehicles I've seen. The good part is that yours is probably not all that bad and some folks would pull the thermostat and limp by for a while. No heat though and in your area that would be shivers. A kid did it over here in CA a while ago and limped by for a couple years of short college trips.

After one downtown SF over heat it limped to Lake County by running at night, where it became a parts car.

If it were my car from what you say I'd take it to CCR or is that the band?

Let them decide how the clutch is, they have to take it our after all.

I had 30,000 miles or so on my Forester clutch and we put it back in after the tranny rebulild. It looked good for a long time.

This is the same reason I put a lot of money in my Forester this year. Avoiding car payments, higher insurance, registration, etc. when we seem to be going into a recession might be a good idea.

I usually get laid off when the republicans are in and get a better job under the Democrats.

[wtdash]

The $600 difference is worth it for the warranty alone, IMHO. I've read on here and elsewhere that the 2.5 may have other issues once the miles add up...ask Mr. Nipper.

 

I agree that the extra HP of the 2.5 is required @ 8,000 feet. I've read that the main complaint of Subie owners in the Rocky Mtn states was about a lack of power due to the altitude.

 

And since yours is a 5-speed, you don't have to worry about the extra cost of fixing the 4EAT.

[idosubaru]

I've read on here and elsewhere that the 2.5 may have other issues once the miles add up...ask Mr. Nipper.

agreed - i definitely see more EJ25's with failed bearings than EJ22's. which is odd considering EJ22's tend to be older (been around far longer) and have more miles/abuse......

 

i would also recommend the rebuild if the price difference is indeed that small.

[cookie]

Gary,

 

Are the bearings about the same size? In other engines I've seen an increased rate of bearing failure with more displacement. I can think of one motorcycle program in which the leap from 750 cc to 900 cc ended up being cancelled because of the rate of increased bearing failure.

Those dudes went to an entire new power plant.

[subsince77]

Thanks everyone. My wife and I were both leaning toward the CCR engine. I just have to figure out how to get it to Denver. That is 4.5 hours and, let's see, three passes I guess. I wonder if I could drive it there with the thermostat out. Does the engine warm up enough to run well that way in cold weather? Last week it was in the area of -35 here at night and -15 during the day. It was much warmer on the front range, but that would still be a really cold trip!

 

I can probably scare up a trailer, or else I can unhook the rear driveline and pull it on a dolly right?

 

Thanks for all the great input.

 

grossgary, the guy that did the clutch is pretty good. I know he used a very good clutch, and I think he would have done everything necessary. but, I will have whoever works on it take a look. My last clutch went 175,000, 78,000 of those were put on by me. I'm not very hard on clutches.

 

Thanks again, this really helps us make a good decision. And for the record, I have no doubt about the superiority of the 2.2 as far as being a less problematic engine, but I have really enjoyed driving this car and I think with the new design HG, it will be more reliable.

[cookie]

Tow it with dolley and disconnect or on a trailer. As a guy who has blown a head gasket on a mountain and paid through the nose just for 10 gallons of water (wrecker call for the water) a trailer is much better.

Climbing mountains is going to put all kinds of changes and strains on an engine you don't get around town. I suspect CCR is going to charge you for a core if you blow it up and it is not rebuildable.

[The Dude]

You have an ideal situation with the CCR installation if you decide to take that option.

1. You are in the same state as the seller and installer of the rebuilt engine. It will be easy to haul the installer into small claims court if things go bad.

2. You are buying the engine through the installer. There is only ONE company legally responsible for the entire job. Many times if the rebuilt engine goes bad the rebuilder blames the installer for a substandard installation, and the installer claims that the rebuilder supplied a bum engine. The poor customer is left in the middle feeling like a ping-pong ball. Always try to buy the rebuilt engine through the installer.

3. Unlike many in the rebuilt/used engine industry, CCR has earned a sterling reputation. I've been on this board for nine years. I can't recall even one complaint about CCR.

[subsince77]

Tow it with dolley and disconnect or on a trailer. As a guy who has blown a head gasket on a mountain and paid through the nose just for 10 gallons of water (wrecker call for the water) a trailer is much better.

Climbing mountains is going to put all kinds of changes and strains on an engine you don't get around town. I suspect CCR is going to charge you for a core if you blow it up and it is not rebuildable.

Good points. That also lets me off the hook for a very cold ride to Denver.

 

 

You have an ideal situation with the CCR installation if you decide to take that option.

1. You are in the same state as the seller and installer of the rebuilt engine.

Also, it should be quick for them to determine that my engine is in good shape. It ran great today.

 

It will be easy to haul the installer into small claims court if things go bad.

2. You are buying the engine through the installer. There is only ONE company legally responsible for the entire job. Many times if the rebuilt engine goes bad the rebuilder blames the installer for a substandard installation, and the installer claims that the rebuilder supplied a bum engine. The poor customer is left in the middle feeling like a ping-pong ball. Always try to buy the rebuilt engine through the installer.

3. Unlike many in the rebuilt/used engine industry, CCR has earned a sterling reputation. I've been on this board for nine years. I can't recall even one complaint about CCR.

 

Wow, thinking of a lawsuit and the car is still sitting in the front yard. I'm sure that's all true, but I'm not anticipating any problems with CCR:)

[subsince77]

Just an update. I'll be calling Emily tomorrow to set up an engine exchange in a couple of weeks. I remembered that my power steering pump has a leak, so I'll probably pick up a new one for the new engine. Other than that, I think we are set.

 

I have been driving the car every day for the last couple of weeks with no sign of overheating. I am staying close to home though, and rarely doing any driving over 50 mph, and only about 30 miles/day. The car starts and runs perfectly every day. I am looking into a trailer for taking it to Denver. Sounds like it will only take 2 days to get it done. We have had a constant stream of winter storms, so I'm hoping for a break.

 

Not looking forward to the bill, but it will be so good to trust the car again. It will take months to break the habit of looking at the temp gauge every 3 seconds. Maybe I'll settle on every 10 seconds.:-\

[subsince77]

This is it, my last full day with my old engine. Tomorrow afternoon she gets loaded on a trailer, and Monday morning we take her over the hills for major surgery. The operation is scheduled for late Monday, and she is supposed to be released again on Tuesday.

 

I've been driving this car everyday since "The Incident." and it has not used one bit of anti-freeze, shown any inclination to overheat, thrown any codes, or misbehaved in any way. I have been SO tempted to take it out on the highway and make sure that the diagnosis is correct, but I haven't. No sense taking a chance on heating it up now.

 

I got thinking that this car has never asked for an oxygen sensor in its whole life. So, after the surgery, I'll probably treat it to one. I'll also give her some new seat covers, re-glue the door gaskets, and give her a much needed mid winter bath while we are on the Front Range.

[subsince77]

I am only posting this because I know all of you are losing sleep over how this car is doing. I appreciate it, but you needn't worry, she's in good hands. Towed her over several mountain passes yesterday through ice, snow, blizzard conditions, closed roads and detours, but we got into Denver yesterday afternoon. She went "under the knife" er, wrench, yesterday late afternoon. and I pick her up late this morning with a rebuilt 2.5, and a resealed P/S pump. We then turn west to go back up over all that country to get home tonight. My only complaint is that CCR does not allow you to call in to the OR nurse for updates during the procedure.

 

Don't worry, I'll let you know how it all goes.

[Rooster2]

Gee, this operation has more drama and stress then a heart transplant show on TV. I hope all goes well. Keep us posted on patient recovery!

 

I have driven from Denver to the "Summit" many times to go skiing, so I know all about going up and down the hills encountering heavy snow, ice, and blizzard conditions. Trailering your car to Denver was a wise move. Driving four and a half hours in a car with a bad motor in those conditions would have been way too stressful, and maybe not successful.

[subsince77]

OK, one last post, then I'll let this thing die. CCR is a great place to deal with. They did exactly what they said they would do, in the time they said it would take. We drove the new engine back across the mountains on Tuesday under sunny skies. The car has a bit more power, particularly on the low end. We came up Monarch pass in 4th, and not pushing it hard at all, until we started getting into snow-packed conditions near the summit and had to slow down.

 

On the trip home, over three or four passes depending on how you count them, I got 27.5 MPG. A little lower than normal, but not at all bad for a brand new tight engine. So far so good. It is great to have the Subaru back on the road, and not having to watch the temp gauge every second.

 

The only problem I have had is that the car threw another 0303 & 0304 misfire code on the way up out of Denver. This is a problem I have been trying to get rid of for about a year now. It only happens on longer trips at highway speeds. It is always both #3, and #4, and I never feel anything. I had hoped that the problem was my 200k exhaust valves, but it seems not to be. After some conversation with CCR about turning around, I elected to drive on home. I don't think this has anything to do with the new engine, but is somewhere in my old parts.

 

I already have new wires, plugs, and coil pack of all the right types. I am still frustrated that the plug wires that Subaru sells for this car are too short, and I have ordered a set of NGK wires on the recommendation of CCR. I can't imagine that NGK wires would be incompatible with the NGK plugs for the same vehicle, and they will hopefully be longer, so I think it is something to try.

 

There is one other thing that I am going to try also on the recommendation of CCR, but I'm going to save that story for another thread. If it ends up solving the problem, it will make an interesting post.

 

Thanks to everyone that coached me through the HG issue, the decision about whether to repair or replace, and all the information I gather about my car on this site. This is the best automotive site I have ever found.