2004 2.5 coolant odor - head gasket?

[Philbiker]

My 2004 2.5 Legacy has 86K miles, in the last few weeks it's occasionally smelled like burnt coolant when I turned the thing off. I have not noticed any temperature problems. I brought it to the shop, they think it's a head gasket. Darn. I knew there was a potential problem with the head gasket on this engine when I bought it - guess this is just my luck . I am going to get the timing belt changed, what the heck, it's a small charge since they're already tearing the engine apart.

 

Not happy.

[hohieu]

Well, it's a bit premature to jump to conclusions. These Phase II 2.5 engines tend to leak externally. Are you noticing coolant loss from your overflow tank. Any puddling of coolant under the car?

 

You may just have a simple coolant leak from any one of your hoses (radiator, heater,coolant overflow hose, bypass), radiator cap, radiator or water pump weep hole. Only the last two items would cost you much. It may be worth poking around a bit or getting a second opinion.

[idosubaru]

GAH!! hold on! do not assume this is a head gasket problem. you need to search the boards here and have a second opinion.

 

i see no mention of testing, information, diagnosis, so they're probably wrong.

 

there are quite a few mentions of "coolant" smell in late model EJ25's, this isn't a head gasket issue. not sure what it is, but others have mentioned it.

[Philbiker]

The shop mentioned that they had read that there are some common coolant leaks that can cause the coolant smell also, and they would check those out before jumping into a HG job. No dice though, it was the HG. Fortunately we caught it early so major valvetrain damage was averted.

[nipper]

STOP, back away from the mechanic

 

First thig to do is to wash the engine. Next is to have a dye put in the coolant. After the engine warms up, it is shut down. Using a black light you can trace the source of the leak.

 

The system should also be pressure tested for leaks.

 

nipper

[ericem]

Ya I wouldn't jump to think it is the headgaskets. Maybe even check in with a Subaru Dealership aren't they car's warrentied till 100k??

[brus brother]

Ya I wouldn't jump to think it is the headgaskets. Maybe even check in with a Subaru Dealership aren't they car's warrentied till 100k??

Not sure that this year was within the official range of HG 100,000 mile/8yr. extended warranty but I certainly would pitch a bit*h to get it covered.

[Blue Whale]

"Major valve train damage" from a suspected leaking head gasket? Either the mechanic isn't playing with a full deck, or he's dealing you cards from the bottom of it. I'd find someone for a second opinion ASAP.

[idosubaru]

something sounds wrong here. can you give more information? what you told us so far doesn't make any sense - head gasket leaks and valve train damage do not make sense at all.

how do they know it's the head gasket?

[Philbiker]

Valve train damage was just my assumption based on long-ago experience with a blown up head gasket in the 80s, not a statement from the shop.

 

I'm going to contact subaru warrantee to see if they will reimburse any part of my expense. Not expecting much.

 

Edit: no dice, the customer support guy at SOA told me that it's out of warrantee anyway and not covered in the list of HG failure VINS. The guy on the phone was polite, but extremely non-commital, using terms like subaru "probably" won't cover the damage, "maybe" they could have helped had I taken it to my dealer instead of a local shop. I kept telling him that's non-commital. Is the answer yes or no? Don't give me "probably" talk! People who can't give a straight answer drive me nuts and this SOA customer service guy, though congenial, made me tear my hear out and I'm bald .

 

Not happy with Subaru and will probably not buy another one because of this episode. Wierd expensive premature maintanance problems was the reason I got rid of my Audi; I bought into the vaunted Subaru reliability myth (literally!). So much for that I guess. I take very good care of my cars as far as scheduled maintenance and use an extremely well regarded local shop which I have been using for at least 6 years so far. I was planning on keeping this car for 200K+ miles but after this I'm having serious considerations of dumping it for something reliable.

 

Lack of warrantee coverage really isn't what makes me unhappy, it's the fact that the HG failed at such a low mileage. I put over 20K miles on the car per year so I pretty much considered the warrantee a moot point, and thought aftermarket warrantees would be a waste of money on a car with the reliability reputation of Subaru. Boy was I wrong. I'm fairly meticulous about standard 30K interval service as well as fluids (brake, transmission, engine oil, coolant, etc.). I wonder how long the other head gasket has.

 

The good news is I got a new timing belt installed (early, I know) and didn't have to pay for labor. :-p

[idosubaru]

dismissing an entire manufacturer over one episode really limits you in the future. it's anecdotal and not the best way to make decisions. it's more indicative of a personality type than it is a good, well informed, decision making process that is best for you. essentially you could rule out every manufacturer on the planet - there is no company that has a 100% success rate in building vehicles that never, ever fail. japanese companies out pace the rest in this area. your 2004 EJ25 has a very good track record, it's unfortunate you got what you did.

 

i didn't hear any details of leakage points or proper testing. i'm also hoping your mechanic didn't "assume" it was a head gasket due to the 2002 and prior EJ25 head gaskets. these had issues (and is why there are certain ones with extended 100,000 mile warranty coverage - that Subaru will honor - and why yours doesn't fall in the range). i would not be surprised if your mechanic assumed it was a head gasket because it's an "EJ25", not realizing that newer ones don't have those same issues. as good as he may be there are millions of hours of subaru specific experience on this board that easily trump his shop. that's the value of a board like this that can offer vehicle, engine, and transmission specific information and trends.

 

good luck with the future, i don't blame you for avoiding audi's though! not a fan of those...or any german cars at this point!

[Philbiker]

dismissing an entire manufacturer over one episode really limits you in the future. it's anecdotal and not the best way to make decisions. it's more indicative of a personality type than it is a good, well informed, decision making process that is best for you. essentially you could rule out every manufacturer on the planet - there is no company that has a 100% success rate in building vehicles that never, ever fail. japanese companies out pace the rest in this area. your 2004 EJ25 has a very good track record, it's unfortunate you got what you did.

This makes sense from an objective standpoint, but the old saying "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice ... you don't get fooled again" comes into play. Seriously, I'm out $1600+ because of this, that memory is going to go with the brand logo for me from now on, there's no way to avoid it. I will not necessarily dismiss subaru and audi outright in the future, but I will definitely put them at the bottom of my list. Sure it "limits" me, but there are so many other auto manufacturers that the real "limitation" is fairly minimal. Also over the years I've lost my AWD zeal.

 

If I have good experience with a company's products I stick with them, if I have poor experience I avoid them in the future. Heck, when I moved I bought a house by the same builder of the one I was in because my experience was so exemplary. I've owned four cars/trucks in my life and only one was a really excellent ownership experience to the point where I'd seek out that manufacturer first. Too bad Isuzu doesn't sell cars & trucks in the USA any more. Audi and Subaru will be at the bottom of my list moving forward as nice as their products are.

 

I'm not a mechanic though I've done simple stuff on my cars and motorcycles throughout the years. I don't need to post every diagnostic to this board, I know Internet message boards love that, especially ones with gearheads like car and motorcycle boards. Suffice it to say this is one of the best shops in the area, specifically known for performance tuning and racing, which in today's hobbyist racing climate means they see a lot of Subarus. One of the senior mechanics/garage managers is a former Subaru dealer mechanic, they know these cars and I'm sure they did all the diagnostics they needed to do, I'm not going to be an A-hole customer and go in there and ask them to document every step they did in order to satisfy the gearheads on an internet message board. (though on the other hand the bike shop didn't seem to mind when I asked them for the out-of-spec measurements for a recent valve adjustment...).

[idosubaru]

mechanics don't mind telling you the results of compression tests, check engine lights, vacuum tests, leak down test, dye tests...etc. it's just numbers. no more than a doctor telling you your blood pressure. they just aren't used to people knowing what any of that stuff is, but they're usually excited to talk to someone that has some intelligence in those areas.

 

i'm not a gear head. i happen to know a fair amount about subarus...and dozens of other things. cars aren't that complicated, those tests are basic. having a good mechanic is nice, most people do not. for us, when you can't see, hear, taste, or smell a vehicle it's very difficult to guess. that's why we ask questions and details. so why have a bunch of people who can't see or touch it guess without information when you can have a trusted mechanic you love that has the car right in front of him to do whatever he wants. we usually assume people are asking because they don't know how to proceed or if they're getting hosed or not.

[Philbiker]

mechanics don't mind telling you the results of compression tests, check engine lights, vacuum tests, leak down test, dye tests...etc. it's just numbers. no more than a doctor telling you your blood pressure. they just aren't used to people knowing what any of that stuff is, but they're usually excited to talk to someone that has some intelligence in those areas.

Yeah, like the example I cited about the bike shop supplying the valve measurements on my valve adjustment, they're fine with giving me the info if I ask for it. I guess I wouldn't be an ahole customer, just a curious one if I asked for the down'n'dirty measurement details for the tests.

 

Though I trust them to do the job right, just like I want to be trusted to do my job right, I don't like having management / customers question every little thing I do every step of the way. It is indicitave of mistrust.

[WAWalker]

The external head gasket leak into the '04 MY is not unheard of, and is becoming more common on the '03 MY. (The same problem that Subaru said was fixed for the '03 MY cars) So I'm not surprised.

 

I've said it before and will say it again. Until there are enough EJ25's on the road with considerable mileage and no head gasket leaks.........................you can't assume that the problem was fixed, just because Subaru said it was fixed.

 

No, you can't assume that every coolant leak on a Phase II EJ25, is a head gasket.......................neither can you assume it is not.

 

Personally, I have no problem showing my customers the leak, if they are skeptical. No diagnostic numbers needed. If coolant is leaking externally from the head gaskets, seeing is believing.

 

My only concern with your car is, sounds like you only had the one gasket replaced? That would make me nervous.

[Philbiker]

Personally, I have no problem showing my customers the leak, if they are skeptical. No diagnostic numbers needed. If coolant is leaking externally from the head gaskets, seeing is believing.

And in many cases such a leak is very obvious.

My only concern with your car is, sounds like you only had the one gasket replaced? That would make me nervous.

It makes me nervous, too! However, the cost of replacing both would have been much higher. The old boxer engine..... I inquired about it but the shop recommended that I not replace the other gasket. They may have thought that they couldn't in good concionse recommend that a customer to replace a part that is working properly and shows no signs of failing. A home mechanic capable of doing the work may have done both. Perhaps I should have insisted that it be done as a precautionary measure.

 

When I was shopping in 04 I did a lot of research on the headgasket problem in the older models but I took SOA's word for it that they had identified and fixed the problem with the '03 models. Offering the extended warrantee on the older models was, I thought, a good faith step. I considered the 35th anniversary package Outback, which was the H3 model, but I didn't want the lower fuel economy and higher gas prices. Also, I didn't like the Pontiac-style taped on plastic lowers and I liked the more comfortable highway ride of the Legacy (and the dual sunroofs are wonderful!). I did get a fantastic deal on this car since I got in in April 04 right before the 05s came out. As I understand it the current generation uses the same engine, does it not?

[WAWalker]

To many people have been and still are taking Subaru's word on the head gasket fixes.

 

I insist on doing both on customers cars. But I do both + t-belt, w/p, oil pump R&R to check backing plate, seals, etc., for less than $1600 too. In the end it is the customers car and money though.

 

Basically the same engine in currant MY's. A few changes to engine management. Basically same head gasket (very, very, very slight visitable change, up to '04. Haven't had any '05- heads off).

[brus brother]

Haven't had any '05- heads off.

phew... my 2000 Legacy had both HGs replaced under warranty and my 2005 OB, well... as the fellow falling from the skyscraper was heard yelling while passing each floor... "so far, so good!"

[WAWalker]

phew... my 2000 Legacy had both HGs replaced under warranty and my 2005 OB, well... as the fellow falling from the skyscraper was heard yelling while passing each floor... "so far, so good!"

 

How many miles. Just out of curiosity.

 

I don't work on a lot of cars that are still under warranty. To may people still believe that they have to have service performed at dealer to maintain warranty coverage. So I only have a hand full of customers with '05 and newer Subarus.

[nipper]

I insist on doing both on customers cars. But I do both + t-belt, w/p, oil pump R&R to check backing plate, seals, etc., for less than $1600 too. In the end it is the customers car and money though.

 

 

Thats always the smartest way to do it.

 

nipper

[idosubaru]

i forgot about this...Subaru offered an additive "conditioner" for the 2000-2002 EJ25's to "help" with the head gasket issues. i've heard of it helping. that may be something to consider now.

 

best to replace both on an engine like this, very few people familiar with this would only replace one. the good thing is with externally leaking EJ25's (2000+ MY), it's not a failure that will leave you sitting...or shouldn't if you catch the signs (like you did). now the 96-2000's....those suck when they blow.

 

bizarre that they would charge you significantly more to replace both gaskets. everything has to come off anyway...timing components, intake, exhaust, there's not much too it to get the remaining head gasket replaced.

[Philbiker]

i forgot about this...Subaru offered an additive "conditioner" for the 2000-2002 EJ25's to "help" with the head gasket issues. i've heard of it helping. that may be something to consider now.

The head gasket kit from Subaru came with the conditioner for my '04. Frankly I'm seriously considering selling the Legacy, I am starting to come to the realization that this car will not go 250K miles / ten years like I was planning without continuing head gasket repairs every few years. Unfortunately virtually all the station wagons on the market have been replaced with "crossover" suvs which have less manageable and usable storage space behind the rear seat.

[idosubaru]

VERY interesting the head gasket kit came with the additive.

 

I am starting to come to the realization that this car will not go 250K miles / ten years

i'd be comfortable with it (i would like to replace both gaskets) though i can understand you are scarred by the ordeal and "sweet" coolant-like smell will forever draw your attention in this car! CCR has never had an EJ25 come back with head gasket issues. i've seen repeat failures on here, but i would guess that's a function of waiting to long to repair (something you didn't do), or the job wasn't done right.

[OB99W]

The head gasket kit from Subaru came with the conditioner for my '04.[...]

Hmmm, that reads like a tacit admission by Subaru that even the newest head gaskets may not be up to the job.

 

If I were you, I wouldn't accept rejection of the complaint by just one SoA rep. I'd suggest doing a Google search on "WWP-99 Service Campaign" to better understand the situation with the earlier Phase-II head gaskets. Armed with that, and the fact that they're still using "conditioner" with the new gaskets, you might be able to get Subaru to step up to the plate.

[Philbiker]

Hmmm, that reads like a tacit admission by Subaru that even the newest head gaskets may not be up to the job.

I agree. I will be heading to my dealer for that little blue bottle before I do my next flush and fill.

If I were you, I wouldn't accept rejection of the complaint by just one SoA rep. I'd suggest doing a Google search on "WWP-99 Service Campaign" to better understand the situation with the earlier Phase-II head gaskets. Armed with that, and the fact that they're still using "conditioner" with the new gaskets, you might be able to get Subaru to step up to the plate.

Problem is they will only honor warrantee work by their terms, i.e. it has to be done by a dealer unless it is an "emergency" situation.