TPS research I've started this week

[electryc_monk]

OKAY so thanks to the many fine threads of mental activity and the search tool for the forum I'm alot better mentally key'd in to what I'm up against with regards to the TPS - specifically on a Spider intake.

the parts site thats not subaru specific

 

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com

 

/tangent

 

There is one thread I'll be link-referencing about 3 pin that is extra stuff I came across in my hunt.

the thread link:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20086&highlight=throttle

 

an autozone page about testing the TPS:

http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1c/61/fb/0900823d801c61fb/repairInfoPages.htm

 

 

on the bay of evil(Skip's favorite name) here are a few possible(three pin) TPS's that may be tested and modified for use on the EA82 plateforms:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330206599752&_trksid=p2759.l1259

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220196948247&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370019070449&_trksid=p2759.l1259

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TOYOTA-SUPRA-7MGE-THROTTLE-POSITION-SENSOR-TPS-1987_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33557QQihZ014QQitemZ330207603905QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220196295567

 

 

BTW I have emailed a few of these items for specific info *IF* they have time for my wide goose chase!

 

Now, the last item may be a 4 pin?

/end tangent

 

back to the Spider fix....

i hope the pictures attach okay to show the wagons engine bay well enough regarding the TPS in this issue... we'll see.

 

After a few phone calls and google-searchs:

972-436-0590 huffines subaru parts

TPS xt intake

87 and older # 2265aa030 $280.62

88 and newer # 2253aa020 $289.00

 

autozone

adam 972-221-1433 main st. site

tps-4038 wells $204.99 oem convert #22633aa030(funny number but thats what he said after I asked if maybe he misread it and told him the dealership numbers)

***special order only

 

auto parts warehouse.com

BECK ARNLEY THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR --

xt/GL/DL Part #: 158-0498 $40.76 three pins

GL-10/wagon part #: 158-0499 $65.53 three pins

87 rx part #: W0133-1653419 $71.95 delphi (supposedly a flat 4 pin)

talked to a guy on their number and he assured me that its a 4 pin and that they have no restocking fee and fully refundable if its not the correct part- even though its not able to show me the exact photo.

 

 

here are the threads I've gleaned info from searching on here:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/search.php?searchid=525427

http://68.178.49.203/jon/SubaruEA82-ServiceManualPart2.pdf

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24997&highlight=throttle+position+sensor

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20086&highlight=throttle

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/search.php?searchid=526389

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=83178&highlight=oem+parts+online

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=81122&highlight=oem+parts+online

 

ALL This because the TPS on the Spider intake (in the lifted Wagon) has the following data:

A-B data: 1.15Ohm to 3.93Ohm

B-C data: open or closed it stays at 12.3K Ohms

B-D data: nothing at all

 

I'm ready to drill out the two rivets holding it together to see why such a small item garners such a hefty pricetag at the dealership. I think it'll be funny to figureout if its just a couple piece at radio shack...

time will have the last laugh though... not me imho.

[idosubaru]

not sure what you're trying to do...like if this is a project or something, so this suggestion might be pointless. but you can disassembled, clean and reassemble the TPS. it can smooth out acceleration quite a bit on the older vehicles (never done it to a new one). open it up, clean up the contacts and put it back together, free and done!

 

not too mention they fail so rarely that used ones are great options...even better if you'd like to clean them up before installing.

[Gloyale]

What are you trying to accomplish?

 

The stock spider TPS(four pins)

 

has the excact same outputs as the later style, non-spider, Turbo TPS(2 of 4 pins used on the body, plus 3 pin pigtail).

 

Only some minor reconfiguring of the connector is needed.

 

To use a 3 pin style on a spider, I still think simply drilling a hole through the plastic case, and mounting it flipped over is by far the most intuitive, and cheapest solution.

[electryc_monk]

not sure what you're trying to do...like if this is a project or something, so this suggestion might be pointless. but you can disassembled, clean and reassemble the TPS. it can smooth out acceleration quite a bit on the older vehicles (never done it to a new one). open it up, clean up the contacts and put it back together, free and done!

 

not too mention they fail so rarely that used ones are great options...even better if you'd like to clean them up before installing.

 

Well,Gary I forgot to write that I'll be drilling thru the rivets and then cleaning the surfaces seeing as how there was a film of oil on the internal surfaces.

 

1.) cleaned the unit

2.) checked the Ohms values just like before and found the following values:

A - B open 12.26 K Ohm

A - B closed 209.1 Ohm

A - B Idle to WOT scales down like reostat should

B-C open 12.31 K

B-C closed 12.31 K

B-C Idle to WOT no change

B-D open Infinty Ohm

B-D Closed 12.31 K Ohm

B-D Idle to WOT no change

 

SO I'm of the understanding that the FSM says that no variation on B-D means non-working TPS or did I missread it and my dyslexia interfiered?

[electryc_monk]

What are you trying to accomplish?

 

The stock spider TPS(four pins)

 

has the excact same outputs as the later style, non-spider, Turbo TPS(2 of 4 pins used on the body, plus 3 pin pigtail).

 

Only some minor reconfiguring of the connector is needed.

 

To use a 3 pin style on a spider, I still think simply drilling a hole through the plastic case, and mounting it flipped over is by far the most intuitive, and cheapest solution.

 

1.) I'm just wanting to fix the idle issue and drive it again.

2.) I don't want to spend nearly $300 for a reostat to *fix* it.

3.) if my imagination and a little digging can fix it then great I can maybe help out a little for other too.... just maybe.

 

the whole idea of knowing that parts makers look for ways to cross-platform "multi-user" this sensor or that hose then the bottom line is looking better every time.

 

considering what others have been able to do with that LSD thread for the trannies, hub conversion, susppension upgrades.... and adapter plates out the wazzzoooo..it seems logical that from the BWD, wells auto catalouges, ebay imagery and the FSM's that maybe just maybe the basic Ohms values of the TPS will be nearly the same for many applications. At the very least the connectors are definatly used on a miata from BWD's site for a cross reference on the old part number - go figure.

[electryc_monk]

soooo um, Gloyale, where's the write up on the simple connector mod your refering too? How'd I miss that thread? Just my absent-minded luck?

Got a link for me please?

[idosubaru]

good luck, hope you figure something out with it.

 

here's an important question - this isn't regarding your XT6 is it? the FSM's for the XT6 are dead wrong.

 

i think you're talking about the EA82 - which i'd want to verify is correct. i imagine it would be though, but would want to know for sure since the XT6 one is impossible to meet FSM spec's.

 

then there's always this:

not too mention they fail so rarely that used ones are great options...even better if you'd like to clean them up before installing.

[electryc_monk]

good luck, hope you figure something out with it.

 

here's an important question - this isn't regarding your XT6 is it? the FSM's for the XT6 are dead wrong.

 

i think you're talking about the EA82 - which i'd want to verify is correct. i imagine it would be though, but would want to know for sure since the XT6 one is impossible to meet FSM spec's.

 

then there's always this:

 

HEHE, I found what I was looking for last night. AND its an answer for your question too. Link: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=42148

 

Goto post #3 and see the two pictures attached. That's the Spider intake in the GL-10 wagon's bay. This is the same bay with the current TPS issue.

Definately NOT the XT6 bay. (thumbs up) Now I hope this clears things up for this thread.

 

OTOH that thread had a few things oop'sed on and man-did I typo(shudders) sheesh. Sorry again folks.

[Gloyale]

I'd love to explain this fully with wire colors and pin # but I don't have my FSMs here at home anymore. I'll try my best with the assumption you can sort which wires are which, and just give you a general desrciption of how to mate the stock XT (read=spider) TPS to mate to the GL-10 harness:

 

 

The GL-10s orginal harness and TPS should have 2 connectors. one on the main body, and one is a pigtail. Five wires total. But the key is that the ground wires are actually just a split. They are spliced from one wire in the harness, about 6 inches up from the connectors. So really it's only Four wires. Listed in red below. IIRC the ground wires on both harnesses are all black.

 

pigtail= one is rehostat ground, one supply 5v, and one variable signal voltage.

 

main body= one is idle switch ground, one is idle switch signal

 

 

 

 

XT(spider) TPS has 4 pins. All on the same connector. It utilises the same ground wire for both rehostat and idle switch operation.If you have the XT harness connector for the four pin TPS, you can just solder it to the wires from the GL-10 harness. Otherwise, you need to find or fab a connection to the pins but the concept will be the same.

 

You need to match One ground wires to the Ground pin on the TPS. Then match the Supply Volts, Signal Volts, and Idle Switch wire from the GL harness to the respective positions on the XT TPS. Cut or tuck up and wrap the remaining ground wire in the GL harness.

 

Their outputs are the same as far as the ECU will see.

[s'ko]

Hope this helps. I am referencing engine compartment diagrams from an 87 gl-10 and a 1989 XT

 

The XT TPS has 4 wires.

wire 1 is a black wire and it becomes black-red. It goes to pin 16 on the large CE connector, the one with 20 wires. It's between a grn-yel one and a white one

wire 2 is white and it connects to pin 21 on the ECU. It's on the 16 pin connector. It's on the end with a black wire next to it.

wire 3 is green and becomes black. It splits to go to the A/T control unit, and connect to the ECU at pin 22 next to wire 2

wire 4 is blu-whit and splits to go to the AT control unit. it also splits and goes to the check conn. It connects to the ECU at pin 25. The same connector as wires 2 and 3.

 

GL-10 throttle sensor has the three wires that go to the same ECU pin positions.

The 4th wire is located at the throttle switch and connects to the ECU at pin 25.

The other wire on the throttle switch is blk/red and appears to be a ground.

So you need to take your 4 pin connector and splice the wires to their corresponding colors. and it should be fine.

 

pm me if you need copies of my diagrams.

BW

[Gloyale]

This is too confusing.

 

electryc_monk, please fill us in on the details of the car again.

 

You say 87 GL-10? Does it have a Flapper MAF or a Hot-wire type? Originally was it a 3 pin TPS or the 2 connector/5 pin style? The later style convert easily, the early 3-pin presents a bigger issue. Which type are we talking about here?

 

 

Has it been running with the spider on it? Did you already set it up for the Spider TPS and now you are just needing a good one? Or is this still part of finishing the spider conversion?

[electryc_monk]

OKAY its been a wild time down here this last week. Sorry for the delay - REALLY- we had two seperate days this week where I experienced *Michigan like winter snow storms* flanked by warm spring Texas weather.

Monday night we got at least 3 inches of snow that stayed till about 10 AM tuesday then thursday after noon it did it again and gave us 9" that stayed till ... well some areas still had some small north faces with a tidbit lieft on them.... tangent with weather link:

http://www.weather.com/outlook/recreation/outdoors/monthly/75077?from=36hr_topnav_outdoors

 

okay now back to Subie issues.

 

Geez [editted heavily after clearing my mind - the history of the wagon] for remembering this all.....(shakes head side-to-side at self).

 

 

 

HAd it running once these few issues were fixed:

* making a throttle cable adapter plate

* eventually realized - I think it was 180 degrees out

* and one of the cam belts was like one tooth off as well.

 

Once all was solved I took it over to Howe manufacturing to prep for the FMIC install... never followed thru on it sorry to say even after I trimed and covered all the areas for the tubing. Then i took it out for a test spin it was like 1 mile down the road and I finally really got on it and took it up over 4500RPM's and then looked behind to see the white cloud of fog from the tail pipe.

i shut her down and towed it back to the barn and there she sat till this last fall (2005 July/Aug till 2007 Aug/sept). I had easily assumed without inspecting that I'd blown the headgasket or two. IT was set at stock boost BTW.

 

so this setup had the following done to it:

Using the 87 BLUE coupe/sedan/wagon FSM and the XT Red FSM (88? not sure at this writing) I had extra wire and did a meticulous build of the two 15/16 wire bundles so that I was able to -with some slack- make the XT turbo wiring harness directly plug into the 87 wagon wiring harness. Effectively it was a pair of extensions with one big difference, ALL the wires that were for grounding got a helping of serious grounding right at the mid point of the extensions to the frame.

 

I rebuilt the engine in july 2005 with new main seals, gen 3 heads, gasket kits, oil pump, water pump, belts, and a the (freshly cleaned and painted black) spider intake from a XT turbo engine I had sitting around in storage while'st I still drove for GTS (18 wheeler).

 

...got it down to texas and figured out that the white smoke was from the turbo itself and not the freshly rebuilt engine. IT had very sloppy shaft play. I'm not sure how or why I missed such obvious shaft slop but, I did back then in 2005.

 

SO I got it swapped out with a nice tight turbo and a new battery and started it up.

it idled rough but i wasn't to worried as it figured it was due to two plus year old fuel. everything else was peachy keen.

 

Got it smog and safety inspected it with only the oddity of a rough going from idle. It would sputter and buck ...however if I got it up above 3000 then I'd get it to rolling and then eventually get it up to speed. Funny thing is its smog rating was passed with flying colors at the two idle settings as they test at 575 RPMs and 2500 RPMs.

 

go to put it under load and its flat out buck and sputter and die if you weren't careful.

 

so then I did the tron chassing with a fluke metere (Ohms values) and found what I've listed about in this thread.

 

 

I guess what I need to do now is use you'alls advice and at the same time ask for those images you offered too.

 

Cut some wires and solder the tips and then make a 4pin connector into a 3 pin connector and mount the spare 3 pin TPS we have laying around.

 

 

there does that make sense?

 

GAWD I hope so!

 

Oh shoot with all that babbling and i forgot to answer if its a hotwire or flapper MAF!

 

87 turbowagon stock airbox and MAF; it was originally a 3 pin TPS but, as I babbled on above the turbo Spider intake was kept original(4 pin TPS) and the wire looms were meticulously mated with the stock 87 wagon 15/16 wire looms under the coil.

 

I'll post/load some engine bay foto's VERY soon...

 

bedtime for this bonzo!

 

This is too confusing.

 

electryc_monk, please fill us in on the details of the car again.

 

You say 87 GL-10? Does it have a Flapper MAF or a Hot-wire type? Originally was it a 3 pin TPS or the 2 connector/5 pin style? The later style convert easily, the early 3-pin presents a bigger issue. Which type are we talking about here?

 

 

Has it been running with the spider on it? Did you already set it up for the Spider TPS and now you are just needing a good one? Or is this still part of finishing the spider conversion?

[electryc_monk]

Gloyale, S'Ko, Gary.... Thanks alot guys...

 

it took me some time to get "time" to actually do this fix.

 

Spliced the 4 wires from the XT Turbo's wire loom and converted the 3 pin + pigtail TPS from the Wagons original Turbo intake wire loom.

 

started right up.

[audio_file]

To use a 3 pin style on a spider, I still think simply drilling a hole through the plastic case, and mounting it flipped over is by far the most intuitive, and cheapest solution.

 

really? have you done this or do you have a linkey to a related thread?

thanks!