03 OBW not charging well?

[1 Lucky Texan]

My wife's outback seems to not charge well. After a few jumpstarts I did a little investigation a few days ago. I have this black and decker charger that has a few limtied functions. One is an 'alternator check'. It seemed to not like the voltage it saw when I turned on some accessories. It was as low as 13.1 . Today her car needed a jump again. The battery seems to charge well enough.

 

Is 13.1 really too low? (again, I had well over 14 with no accessories on - had to turn on the fan, seat heaters and headlights to get as low as 13.1)

 

Is the voltage regulator built into the alternator?

 

Is there a known short lifespan on these? (6 cylinder alts.? 100amps? ) Her car only has about 40k miles!

 

I can't detect any parasitic drains but I may try to get an ammeter on it this weekend.

 

Carl

[Skip]

my check mark goes next to the battery being bad'

 

Maybe a load test with one of these would show you this?

 

alt output should be between 13.8 and 14.2 Vdc

 

Was the engine running faster than 1200 RPM when

you did your tests?

 

Our 03 VDC (H6) still has the factory bat at 75 kmi.

[nipper]

My wife's outback seems to not charge well. After a few jumpstarts I did a little investigation a few days ago. I have this black and decker charger that has a few limtied functions. One is an 'alternator check'. It seemed to not like the voltage it saw when I turned on some accessories. It was as low as 13.1 . Today her car needed a jump again. The battery seems to charge well enough.

 

Is 13.1 really too low? (again, I had well over 14 with no accessories on - had to turn on the fan, seat heaters and headlights to get as low as 13.1)

 

Is the voltage regulator built into the alternator?

 

Is there a known short lifespan on these? (6 cylinder alts.? 100amps? ) Her car only has about 40k miles!

 

I can't detect any parasitic drains but I may try to get an ammeter on it this weekend.

 

Carl

 

You can check the charging system with a volt meter. You need to have ALL the accessories on and the engine rpm at 2500 Rpm. If it is below 13 volts its too low.

 

At 40,000 miles thats early for an altenator to go bad, but stuff happens.

Another possability is a loose blet, or dirty battery terminals.

 

Get the battery load tested too.

 

Yes the volt reg is inside the alt.

 

nipper

[Skip]

You might want to check the positive

battery terminal.

 

Mine was pretty nasty under the red cap cover.

 

I'm sure you saw this if you jumped it.

[1 Lucky Texan]

I just cleaned the terminals. I'm not a fan of them. Their construction seems to limit the surface area that contacts the posts(they have a sort of 'strip' of metal at the top and bottom instead of being a full 'split cylinder'). My 'gut' says the battery is OK. Charged it days ago and it 'seems' to charge well and indicates correct voltage. It is the second battery for the car (batts only last about 3 years here) .

 

I think I'll give Autozone a chance to put their load box on. Its their battery too. (3 year full replacement!)

 

Also, I'll try all the accessories but rev to 2500 (right?)

 

thanx

 

Carl

[nipper]

Yes rev to 2500 rpm. Some places now use a digital load tester, and personally, un;ess the tech knows how to read it, its crap. They dont pick up borderline altenators.

 

Give us the numbers at 2500 RPM everything on, at idle in gear everything on, and idle in gear with everything off. The real number too look at is at 2500 rpm, but the others are data points that will reveal a borderline alt.

 

The best is the old big silver box with the nice analog gauge on it.

 

If you are in a lot of traffic, a borderline alt may pass at 2500 rpm, but may have low output in drive at idle. If you spend alotof time in that area (bumper to bumper traffic) it can give you a battery discharge condition.

 

nipper

[Rooster2]

You may also consider checking the water level inside the battery, if it has the cap covers that can be pried off. Also, clean the battery terminals. Corrosion can build up causing charging problems.

[Skip]

I've never had to have the engine at that high a RPM to get

13.8 V or higher.

 

 

I'm sure Nipper has a FSM reference he's quoting.

 

My FSM says you should get 33 A at 1500 RPM.

 

I'll give it a try and see if the voltage increases

above 1500.

 

Might be time to check the electrolyte

if you go through batteries like that.

and or a small parasitic drain.

[nipper]

I've never had to have the engine at that high a RPM to get

13.8 V or higher.

 

 

I'm sure Nipper has a FSM reference he's quoting.

 

My FSM says you should get 33 A at 1500 RPM.

 

I'll give it a try and see if the voltage increases

above 1500.

 

Might be time to check the electrolyte

if you go through batteries like that.

and or a small parasitic drain.

 

I'll agree to the 1500 if thats the FSM, I havent looked at one recently. Maybe it was 1500, its been a while since i've dealt with a borderline (namely mine).

 

Thats how I know the digital vs the analog testors. 4 shops with the digital passed the altenator. When I got home, put ol' sparky on Blu, and it failed the altenator. Sparky was correct.

 

nipper

[1 Lucky Texan]

I've never had to have the engine at that high a RPM to get

13.8 V or higher.

 

 

I'm sure Nipper has a FSM reference he's quoting.

 

My FSM says you should get 33 A at 1500 RPM.

 

I'll give it a try and see if the voltage increases

above 1500.

 

Might be time to check the electrolyte

if you go through batteries like that.

and or a small parasitic drain.

 

Yeah, our climate is tough on batteries. I 'try' to check the water level every 3-4 months. But I'm really focused on the low voltage I saw during the 'alt check' on my charger. Could be a glazed slipping belt I guess too.

 

I have some distractions at home right now (last daughter and her BF moving out) but, if I can't do further diagnostics some night this week, it will be Sunady before I can concentrate on it. Just keep putting the charger on it till then I suppose!

 

thanx guys

 

Carl

[1 Lucky Texan]

http://www.ibsa.com/www_2001/content/about_us/current/may_2002/images/usmap_zones_lg.jpg

 

 

just fyi

 

Carl

[1 Lucky Texan]

belt looks OK inside and out. (no cracks - not shiny /glazed looking) Dunno how it tightens, couldn't locate an adjustment. Seems tight enough though.

 

The charger backed down to under 2 amp charge rate fairly quickly. Kinda weird.

 

Will try further testing if I can.

[1 Lucky Texan]

OK, warmed up. rpm approx 700-750 I guess.

 

no load - fairly steady 14.2 volts

 

moderately loaded - 13.1

 

severely loaded(rpm about 600) - 12.5 to 12.9 or 13 (varied with A/C cycling)

 

rpm 2200 to 2600 14.2 to 14.4 no load, moderate load, fully loaded.

 

 

wonder if I had a scope if I'd see any excessive ripple?

 

How come systems nowadays never seem to go bad in such a way as to light the 'battery' or 'charging' warning lamps? I had an Oldsmobile that lit the battery light very dimly when the diode trio was bad. My daughter's Nissan had a bad alt. and never lit the battery light either.

 

weird. maybe tomorrow i'll make sure its charged well and let A'zone test it all under load.

 

 

Carl

[nipper]

They do light up the battery and brake lighhts when they go bad. In fact there are many threads that confirm that. It's possible that you have those lights on, but its so dim that you wont see them.

 

Sadly the FSM is a little cryptic as to the spec. They speak current output at a specific engine speed, which i dont recall ever seeing before.

 

The newest manual I have is for a 2000.

 

1500rpm -36a (or higher)

2500rpm -65a (i knew i read 2500 rpm someplace)

5000rpm -86a

 

The troubleshooting chart says the VB at 1500 RPM should be no higher then 15.5 Volts

 

You know what happens if you leave the car loaded at idle, in gear, foot on the brake and leave it for a minute.

 

I think you might be on the hairy edge.

 

I don't want to say you are since the car is not in front of me.

 

DON"T buy a alternator at autozone. Too many people have gotten mismatched altenators from them (the imprezza and legacy alt's look alike, but are differnt animals).

 

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/BatteryAltWin03.pdf

 

Even there they state a voltage of 14.1- 14.8.

 

Maybe you do have a intermitent parasitic drain.

 

Get everything load tested first.

 

You dont have a power amp in this do you?

 

 

nipper

[1 Lucky Texan]

They do light up the battery and brake lighhts when they go bad. In fact there are many threads that confirm that. It's possible that you have those lights on, but its so dim that you wont see them.

 

Sadly the FSM is a little cryptic as to the spec. They speak current output at a specific engine speed, which i dont recall ever seeing before.

 

The newest manual I have is for a 2000.

 

1500rpm -36a (or higher)

2500rpm -65a (i knew i read 2500 rpm someplace)

5000rpm -86a

 

The troubleshooting chart says the VB at 1500 RPM should be no higher then 15.5 Volts

 

You know what happens if you leave the car loaded at idle, in gear, foot on the brake and leave it for a minute.

 

I think you might be on the hairy edge.

 

I don't want to say you are since the car is not in front of me.

 

DON"T buy a alternator at autozone. Too many people have gotten mismatched altenators from them (the imprezza and legacy alt's look alike, but are differnt animals).

 

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/BatteryAltWin03.pdf

 

Even there they state a voltage of 14.1- 14.8.

 

Maybe you do have a intermitent parasitic drain.

 

Get everything load tested first.

 

You dont have a power amp in this do you?

 

 

nipper

 

No amp or any other accessories..

 

What's weird ishow low the charge current is after she reports needing a jump start. If the battery were really discharged - I'd expect high current from the charger. I'd almost bet there were 2 problems here - reduced capacity in the battery AND a marginal alt.

 

She says it starts right up when jumped. So I don't think there's any neutral safety or starter problems. And probably the cables are good at the starter.

 

Also the plates are covered with electrolyte.

 

Nipper - any chance you could explain how the tension is adjusted? I couldn't find anything.

 

Carl

[nipper]

whats your email and how large is your mailbox.

 

You may have a lazy voltage regulator. Thats what it is sounding like more and more.

 

Think about it, is there any pattern to when she has needed a jump start?

 

The way to adjust it is that there is an idler pully that is on a long screw (at leats thats how most of them were). Check where all the idler pullies are, once you trace them look how its mounted.

 

nipper

[nipper]

Ok i screwed up . You need to loosen all the alt bolts. there is one bolt that adjusts the alt, this is a great shot of that bolt.

 

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11709

 

nipper

[1 Lucky Texan]

Ok i screwed up . You need to loosen all the alt bolts. there is one bolt that adjusts the alt, this is a great shot of that bolt.

 

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11709

 

nipper

 

I think the previous post may be more likely to apply to our H6 . The way the belt goes around MY alt., I don't think would be tightened by swinging the alt. like shown in that pic. The belt does a complete 180 ( U )around the alt pulley. with the 'open' part towards the driver's side.

 

I'll try to look at the idlers more closely.

 

 

thanx

 

Carl

[1 Lucky Texan]

Some info on the web seems to indicate the H6 may have a spring-loaded automatic tensioner. Probably one of the idlers. I just need to figure out which one and how to pry it i guess.

 

My 'plan' is to take the battery to A'zone (its a 3 year replacement duralast from them) and let them charge/load test it. If it fails - I get a replacement battery, put it in the car and THEN have the car's charging system tested. If they say the battery is OK - I'll do the same, but this way, if the battery is marginal/bad, it removes a 'confusion factor' for their alternator test.

 

Carl

[OB99W]

[...]What's weird ishow low the charge current is after she reports needing a jump start. If the battery were really discharged - I'd expect high current from the charger. I'd almost bet there were 2 problems here - reduced capacity in the battery AND a marginal alt.

Based on the output voltage you've measured under various load conditions, I'm not inclined to suspect the alternator. If you have access to a scope and want to check ripple, make note of both the amplitude and any irregularity in the waveform.

 

While it's true that the initial charge current should be high if the battery is sufficiently discharged, excessive series resistance can prevent that. Such resistance can be due to either corrosion at the battery cable clamps (which you've apparently already addressed), or problems internal to the battery itself.

 

 

She says it starts right up when jumped. So I don't think there's any neutral safety or starter problems. And probably the cables are good at the starter.

Yes, I'd agree with that assessment.

 

 

Also the plates are covered with electrolyte.

That's good, but of course just indicates the battery hasn't been abused in that manner. Since being able to see the level usually means the battery has removable cell caps, testing electrolyte specific gravity can provide very useful info.

 

As you previously mentioned, using an ammeter to test actual current draw to detect a possible parasitic load problem is the way to go; anything over a few tens of milliamps is excessive. Of course, any parasitic load could be intermittent in nature...

[Skip]

Carl, I'm sure you've seen this setup

to look for parasitic loads

[1 Lucky Texan]

A'zone says the battery boiled out its acid and was heavily 'sulphated'.

 

Got a replacement. (3 year full replacement - pro-rated after that. The battery was purchased in 9/06 !)

 

Just now tried some of the same tests.

 

idle no-load 14.1 - 14.2 volts.

 

moderate load 13.9 - 14.0

 

heavy load - 12.6

 

2500 rpm - 14.1 - 14.2 at low and moderate loads. (didn't wanna put it in gear at 2500!)

 

Some other interesting observations. My 'gut' feeling about the charge rate seems to be born out by the fact that this battery causes the rate to 'back off' much less quickly than the old one. I suspect the capacity was just so low that it was behaving like a small motocycle battery in effect. No single bad cell - just 6 very poor cells.

 

Now the question is - should I still have the alternator tested?

 

(OBTW - I haven't tested for parasitic loads but, since the charger will indicate 'ful', I suspect any parasitic drain would be either intermittent or only present when the car was 'on' or running. Plus, since the capacity was so low, a drain would likely have killed the batt quite quickly. Instead, it seemed it would hold enough for 2-3 starts, even over a couple of days, before finally needing a jump. perhaps there is some internal drain as well?)

 

i dunno - I may make som compariosons with my WRX using my little charger. That way I have some baseline from a system that is not an 'unknown' so-to-speak.

 

this is what I have;

http://www.blackanddecker.com/ProductGuide/Product-Details.aspx?ProductID=17922

 

Carl

[nipper]

Or you can buy better batteries.

 

Sulfated means that there is enough material inside the battery to cause some of the cells to short out. The material will shift around, thats why sometimes it did it, and sometimes it didnt.

 

It never hurts to have more data, so you can have it tested on the car if you want (off the car tests are absolutly useless).

 

I bet your fine now.

 

nipper

[OB99W]

A'zone says the battery boiled out its acid

Whatever that means -- usually it happens if the charging voltage is excessive, but your tests don't seem to indicate that. Perhaps the high ambient temps in TX played a role.

 

 

and was heavily 'sulphated'.

Sulfation tends to happen more readily to car batteries that are allowed to remain partially discharged for too long, or are deeply discharged too often (it doesn't take much; batteries for automotive service aren't typically "deep cycle" type).

 

 

Some other interesting observations. My 'gut' feeling about the charge rate seems to be born out by the fact that this battery causes the rate to 'back off' much less quickly than the old one. I suspect the capacity was just so low that it was behaving like a small motocycle battery in effect. No single bad cell - just 6 very poor cells.

Since you previously mentioned that electrolyte was covering all of the plates, low capacity would likely be explained more readily by sulfation than that "the battery boiled out its acid". Sulfation causes the plates to have an effectively insulating layer deposited on them, and to have less-concentrated electrolyte, both of which lower capacity.

 

 

Now the question is - should I still have the alternator tested?

As I posted earlier, based on the results of your testing I don't suspect the alternator.

 

 

(OBTW - I haven't tested for parasitic loads but, since the charger will indicate 'ful', I suspect any parasitic drain would be either intermittent or only present when the car was 'on' or running. Plus, since the capacity was so low, a drain would likely have killed the batt quite quickly. Instead, it seemed it would hold enough for 2-3 starts, even over a couple of days, before finally needing a jump. perhaps there is some internal drain as well?)

If the battery reserve capacity was very low, it's certainly true that even a small load could easily deplete it. Yes, it's also possible that a certain amount of plate material had been dislodged, forming a somewhat conductive sludge at the bottom of the cells that could add to the self-discharge that occurs even with "healthy" lead-acid batteries; elevated temps increase self-discharge, BTW.

 

Things that kill car batteries:

1) Under-/over-charging

2) High temps

3) Vibration

4) Not maintaining electrolyte level

[1 Lucky Texan]

Whatever that means -- usually it happens if the charging voltage is excessive, but your tests don't seem to indicate that. Perhaps the high ambient temps in TX played a role.

 

 

Sulfation tends to happen more readily to car batteries that are allowed to remain partially discharged for too long, or are deeply discharged too often (it doesn't take much; batteries for automotive service aren't typically "deep cycle" type).

 

 

Since you previously mentioned that electrolyte was covering all of the plates, low capacity would likely be explained more readily by sulfation than that "the battery boiled out its acid". Sulfation causes the plates to have an effectively insulating layer deposited on them, and to have less-concentrated electrolyte, both of which lower capacity.

 

 

As I posted earlier, based on the results of your testing I don't suspect the alternator.

 

 

If the battery reserve capacity was very low, it's certainly true that even a small load could easily deplete it. Yes, it's also possible that a certain amount of plate material had been dislodged, forming a somewhat conductive sludge at the bottom of the cells that could add to the self-discharge that occurs even with "healthy" lead-acid batteries; elevated temps increase self-discharge, BTW.

 

Things that kill car batteries:

1) Under-/over-charging

2) High temps

3) Vibration

4) Not maintaining electrolyte level

 

In looking back, I see I wasn't clear. After returning to A'zone after an hour or so, they said the battery boild out its acid and was sulpahted AFTER THEIR TESTING. I 'assume' they charge it, load it, maybe repeat? During some portion of that, I guess the battery either overheats or 'outgasses' such that fluid escapes?

 

Anyway, I'm inclined to just wait and see how the new battery behaves.

 

thanx for the ideas, opinions and moral support. I sometimes am hesitant to try even simple things without advice from others. I have some book learning, but certainly not as much experience as 2-3 or more of you guys put together!

 

Carl