blown head gasket or cyl liner/engine block separation?

[Guest theotherskip]

this was buried in the other thread i have about a possible blown head gasket...

 

i went to the dealer the other day (in SE PA) and asked for a head gasket replacement estimate and he asked what symptoms i was having. i told him about the overheat & bubbles in the expansion tank. he said that it was probably not the head gasket, but more likely the "cylinder liner separating from the engine block." he said that they have not had any problems with the head gasket on this car (97 2.5l), but have had a lot of problems with the BLOCK?!? i asked if there was any way to check this, and he said that you have to remove the heads and check the block. i asked if he felt that this was a normal problem, for the block to go bad at 72k miles, and he just seemed to shrug it off. he gave me on of those "i've been working for subaru for 15 years..." blah blah blah. he said that that this particular engine (2.5l phase 1) doesn't have head gasket problems, rather this cylinder liner problem. i asked if he was sure, with everything about having bad head gaskets, not to mention the 6 revisions of the head gasket by subaru, and he stuck to his story...

 

feeling that he was full of @#$%, i walked out with the estimate... has anyone ever heard of this? i searched the web for this, and only found one person talking about it, www.imprezawrx.org/STi_Ml...est252.txt (link not currently working), but found a ton of articles about the head gasket problems. i figured he was just giving me crap after saying that there were no head gasket problems on this car, especially after reading everything on this board.

 

any thoughts?

[Guest Commuter]

I think my reaction would be very much like yours.

 

I've been on this board (and poke around some others) for 2.5 years now. In the latter part of 2001, a lot of head gasket posts started popping up. I asked my dealer about it around the end of the year. They said they'd only had a couple occurrances. March 2002, my head gasket goes. While I'm waiting in the service area, the service writer is talking to someone on the phone about persistent overheating problems etc... possible head gasket failure, and so on. I started to inquire. I was told that over the past several weeks, they were doing head gasket work at the rate of 2 per week. This continued on for a good part of 2002. I asked again earlier this year (2003) and I was told that the blown head gaskets had pretty much run their course. They weren't seeing too many anymore.

 

Cylinder liner loosening? It's possible. I can't say that I've stumbled upon that. Sometimes cracked blocks or heads are suspected. I don't think that is frequent either though. Head gasket failure. Yes... lots of evidence on that one.

 

The odds would point to the head gasket. You won't know though until you are in there. A commonly quoted figure for head gasket work including machining of the heads and a valve job is around $1000 US.

 

Commuter

[Guest Cougar4]

I would tend to think the same as you about this but the tech may have a reason to think the way he does, from real experience. Either way it seems you need some major work done. If you really want to keep this car you might want to trade out engines. I would consider a rebuilt one from CCR. This is pretty expensive to do but you will have a engine warrantee when it is done.

 

Colorado Component Rebuilders, Inc.

5861B Marion St., Denver, CO 80216

Phone: (303) 293-9230, Fax: (303) 293-9231

E-mail: CCRInc@aol.com

[Guest meep424]

Wait one... do these cars even use liners???!!? that's news to me.... can someone confirm??

 

mike

[Guest theotherskip]

the person i was dealing with at the dealership was the service writer, not a tech. i was almost dumbfounded when he said that they haven't had any problems with the head gasket...

 

i did get a quote from ccr about replacing the engine. due to my current employment situation (or lack thereof), i am unable to replace it, and will most likely be doing the job myself. i have read all the great things about ccr, and they got back to me very quickly and i am definately impressed.

 

as for if this engine uses liners or not, i dunno. i just searched the web, and didn't find a definitive answer. i assumed it did... i always assumed that they pressed in a cast iron liner, but a web search reveled that there are currently some ceramic coatings that they can apply to a basic aluminum block without the need for a liner. i couldn't find what subaru uses (or doesn't).

[Guest Commuter]

meep,

 

I don't know if we're are referring to the same thing when we say "liners". Virtually all Aluminum engines employ a steel cylinder of some sort. Cast in place or pressed in place somewhere along the manufacturing process. This is what I understand to be a "liner". (And I know the terms is used since it comes up in specs in the industry I work in.) I believe that old cast iron blocks had a separate liner inside the cylinder bore and this is the origin of the term. Perhaps someone can comment.

 

I read an article in the past year where one manufacturer (Mercedes I think it was) has and engine that uses Aluminum liners. The alloy is a special mix with Silicon and other stuff to give it heat and wear resistance. Being of an alloy matrix through, it would actually "bond" to the block when it was cast, becoming an integral part of it. The molten Aluminum for the block would melt about 20% of the liner thickness where it contacted it and fuse right to it. No loose liner possible in this case (short of tearing the metal apart). I think this was a limited production engine. It might have been a prototype... I can't recall now. Still, probably a sign of the future.

 

Just saw the above post about ceramic coatings. Coatings of one sort or another are certainly possible. As with any of this stuff, it's all about economics. I don't know to what extent coatings are used. I saw the block of my engine when it was replaced. I'm 99% sure it was just a conventional (cast) steel liner. That's still the case with most engines I believe.

 

Commuter

[nipper]

All aluminum engines (except MB) use liners. Anyone remeber the Chevy Vega fiasco? Aluminum cylinder walls chewed themselves up at about 54K like clockwork. Chevys fix was to re sleeve the engine.

The liners are installed while both the block and liners are cold. I have never heard of a liner seperating (despite my poor spelling ive been doing this for over 20 years on the engineering end). If the liner did seperate, MAN the engine would blow itself apart, as the liner would turn into a hammer.

That said there are tow terms here, a liner and a sleeve. a liner is installed in the engine bore. a sleeve is installed usually due to over boaring a block, since what happens is that you breech the water jacket. Just an FYI.

 

nipper

[ferret]

All EJ's use Iron Liners in the cylinders. Talking to a Tech I know from the Subaru Region site in Orangeburg NY, They have had a 'few' liners shift in the block. He has seen the 2.2 and both the DOHC 2.5 and SOHC 2.5 do this. As he stated, it's NOT common. The Turbo block IS different and he hasn't seen any of these shift, but he states, they still could.

When these shift, it is always been away from the head (lower into the block). And he says its not by much (.005 to .0010). But enought to see when you have the head off. Symptoms........You guessed it.....Same as the 2.5 DOHC head gasket.

So for a Service Mgr to make a blanket statement is ir-responsible. As with all mechanical things, you don't know until you take it apart. But the ODD's are in favor of a blown head gasket, and not the liner shifting.

 

P.S.....EndWrench has a good writeup this month on Subaru Cooling Systems...Confirming what I have done for the neighbors for over 20 yrs....Do NOT FLUSH COOLING SYSTEMS....and ALWAYS use De-ionized / De-minerialized water when refilling. Can get it in almost any supermarket.

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/CoolMay05EW.pdf

[earlyworm]

I am in the process of replacing both the headgaskets on my 2.5L 1996 Outback. When I pulled it apart I found that the headgasket had seperated and had created a divit in the head at the failure. The original symptoms were bubbles in the radiator. If you are getting bubbles don't delay. The repair shop was able to resurface the head but it was close.

[avk]

earlyworm, this thread is four years old.

[earlyworm]

its what i get for having too many screens open................. not posting on the correct link...

[nipper]

its what i get for having too many screens open................. not posting on the correct link...

 

 

i've done that too

 

 

nipper