MR_Loyale Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I have to admit that oil filters are something I never really thought about much about. After reading the various threads regarding oil filters and FRAM filters in particular, I got to wondering about some episodes of startup knock I had a while back. You see, being the novice I am, I always used FRAM oil filters. Why? No particular reason other than they appear to be the most common one out there. I used it once, the engine didn't fall apart and so I thought why not? Since then, out of habit, I grab the fram filter. See I am of the mind that if something isn't broken, don't fix it. If something works fine, why switch? Then I came accross some of the threads here that got me to thinking. The negative attitude and some people's personal testing have made me question my Fram usage. I am thinking back several months ago, in the mornings on several occassions, I would have severe knocking coming from the engine. Not the tap tap tap you mght get sometime, but a hard knocking like little elves in the engine with hammers trying to beat their way out. I thought for sure the engine was going to destroy itself. After about 1 minute, it stopped and didn't return for the rest of the day. I had about 5 of these episodes and then to this day it never happened again. Thinking back, the only thing that changed was the fact I have been religiously changing the oil and filter. Could this severe knocking have been caused by a bad Fram oil filter or perhaps something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 there's way too many possibilities and variables to conclusively say anything. as much as i dislike fram and avoid them i would say chances are slim it was "caused" by fram filters. we are talking about a 15 year old motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 It's a known fact that internally, the FRAM filters SUCK. There's some filter or something made out of cardboard that falls apart/callapses, other stuff inside just isn't made worth a crap. But then again, some people have been using them for years without incident. You keep an eye on the oil level I assume? I'm gonna go ahead and blame it on the filter because my dad's Camry had engine knock on start-up until he switched from FRAM to Purolator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoJak Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 If you want to learn more about oil filters here is a really good link: http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Loyale Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share Posted March 10, 2008 If you want to learn more about oil filters here is a really good link:http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/index.html Yeah, it was that article that got me thinking about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeroy Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 For years my EA81 had a severe knock first thing every morning. So bad I have a spare EA81 sitting in the garage as I always thought I would need to change it sooner rather than later! Funny thing was, once I started using genuine Subaru filters the noise stopped! I used Ryco filters (which were once a well respected Australian brand) but now only use genuine or Purolator (Purolator have only recently become available here where I live) which seem to be OK so far. So yes, I think there is more noise on start-up from badly made oil filters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 IF the anti-drainback valve in the filter fails, then all the oil in the oil galleries and pump will dribble back to the oil sump overnight. When you start it in the morning, you will have no oil pressure in the engine untill the pump sucks up enough oil to pressurise the engine. This is wicked bad for the bearings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilDead Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Is there an after market pre-oiler kit for Subaru engines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 After reading this thread and many more like it, I decided to do a little research today. A friend and I were at the Tacoma PAP scavenging for some Subaru parts (of course) and after we got our little treasures I started pulling the hood up on vehicles that had no physical damage. This way I would assume they were in the yard for mechanical failure. On average, I would say 4 out 5 vehicles were running Fram oil filters. Some had Pennzoil or aftermarket filters and very few had OEM or "good" filters. This was just in the import section, we didnt look in the American section. Just a little FYI and kind of confirms my suspitions(sp). I was actually a little surprised at the high number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoyale Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Turbone, Yeah I agree with that too! I think fram sucks. Cause when I first bought my car I (Being new to Subaru or any vehicle) went with Fram. And after a few miles I noticed that where the Filter seal and the oil pump meet there was always a beed/line of fresh oil... So I thought it was just a bad filter. So I bought another one, And again the same thing. Plus in the cold mornings on startup I did have some ticking from a lifter on the Drivers side. SO.... After that I did another oil change (only put 200miles on that filter) and this time I did it with a Subaru filter and now theres no more oil around the seal and no more tick on cold mornings. Only once and a while on really cold days -10 Deg F I'll get a little bit for a few seconds... So all in all, I don't like nor trust Fram anymore. My parents still run them on both there vehicles... (99 S-10 Blazer and 93 Ranger) But not me... My 2 cents, Whatever thats worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 i've had fram filters fail on me before and i'll gladly pay 4x as much for a mobil one filter if necessary!! i read an article just like this one a few years back where a guy did the same thing with filters of every make he could get for a ford 302 and a mopar la 360. both sets of filters showed the mobil one's to be the best overall choice. i've noticed lately though that mobil one is starting to use plastic bypass valves for some models so i'll be looking to find a retailer that sell purolators come next oil change - or if i ever get my hatch going! ...guess i should get back to them heads while the little booger's still asleep, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevethefolkie Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 On average, I would say 4 out 5 vehicles were running Fram oil filters.. interesting observation, but your statistical population was probably a bit small to form any meaningful conclusions. It's quite likely that, due to market penetration, 4 out of 5 filters sold are Fram (or are made by Fram and marketed under another name) anthough that's just observational and I have no hard data to back up that figure. I've heard of Fram failures and tend to avoid them - I tend to run Bosch filters or NAPA premium ones (I started out in the Volkswagen and Saab worlds and a recent convert to Subaru) and have never lost an engine due to an oil filter failure. Then again, I change my oil and filter every 3000 miles on my vehicles and monitor their condition (yep, I take apart a filter every couple changes and look for metal bits or collapsed filter materials - I'm one of those "engineer" types). Much of this comes down to personal preference or prejudice - in the "classic" Saab 900 world I doubt that many would admit to running anything but Bougicord spark plug wires (the OEM supplier) - but I'll break the silence and admit to running Bosch and AC/Delco wires on a couple 900's with fine results. Engines fail for a variety of reasons, clearances in a factory engine can vary, which can lead to one going 300,000 miles and it's sister engine going 30,000 before a rod or main bearing letting go. Then toss into the mix the wide variety of service intervals imposed by "previous owners" - you know - those people to whom the Subaru was just an "old car" for a couple years who ran non-detergent motor oil and didn't change it very often, or who beat the hell out of their cars before selling them. If the filter is to blame it tends to be pretty obvious, on post-mortem you'll find a clogged or failed filter element, starved bearings (spun or galled) and a galled crank or rod journal or two - but without doing a thorough failure analysis for the most part people are taking an educated (or un-educated) guess at what caused the engines demise. So while I've read of Fram filter failures, I've never read of a court case against them for providing an inferior product that cause an expensive engine failure - which - if they were defective in great numbers - at least here in litigation happy America - I'd expect. A premium filter, on the other hand, is cheap insurance - if it makes you feel better to run one then it's worth the investment! I do have to admit that ANY filter is an improvement over the screens that Volkswagen used on their air-cooled engines, but even with those screens, the old 'dubs used to last a long time between rebuilds IF you kept the oil level up and changed it at a decent interval. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I guess the only way to "prove" that a Fram filter was at fault for the demise of a engine before its time would to buy a new car and run nothing but Fram filters in it. Follow the manufacturers oil schedule and keep all receipts of oil changes. Then every 30k, take a sample of the oil to a lab and see what they find. If and when the engine goes TU take the final oil sample and the record of previous ones from the lab and contact a lawyer. IF it shows that Fram has a inferior product. After all that I still dont see anyone winning a court battle over it. Our best choice is to NOT buy Fram products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brokebill Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 was anyone able to sort through all that data in the study and come to a conclusion on what is supposed to be the best overall filter? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevethefolkie Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 I guess the only way to "prove" that a Fram filter was at fault for the demise of a engine before its time would to buy a new car and run nothing but Fram filters in it. Follow the manufacturers oil schedule and keep all receipts of oil changes. Then every 30k, take a sample of the oil to a lab and see what they find. If and when the engine goes TU take the final oil sample and the record of previous ones from the lab and contact a lawyer. IF it shows that Fram has a inferior product. After all that I still dont see anyone winning a court battle over it. Our best choice is to NOT buy Fram products. to be realistic about it, the cost of litigation would be far more than the average value of a vehicle "killed" by a Fram filter (unless you could get enough participants to form a class and have an attorney take on Fram under a class-action). Life is an endless series of choices and compromise, would it be better to re-use a premium filter than slap on a Fram? You'll never know until you try. If the Fram fails, then you've got a problem, but the re-used premium filter could have clogged or failed as well - you just never know the outcome until after the fact. If you're going into Fram avoidance mode, best find out what other brands of filters they manufacture - I don't happen to know - but there's no sense in paying more $$ for filter A if it's made on the same assembly lines as filter F. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 was anyone able to sort through all that data in the study and come to a conclusion on what is supposed to be the best overall filter?Bill My preferences: Purolater OEM Wix Napa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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