EVOthis Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 I have a 96 legacy ej22 and am looking to replace the cam seals i have made sure that nothing else is leaking and have come to the conclusion that it is the seals. I did the timing belt around 15k ago and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on what else i should replace while i'm in there... The water pump was also done not to long ago and the oil pump and front crank seals are dry, any help would be super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 The "true" way to know if it is indeed the cam seal is to look at the rubber "dust seal" behind the cam rear belt cover. If it's showing oil, the cam seal is leaking. The one I did (driver side) was swelled from oil contact so it just got reinstalled - it's only a "dust seal' anyway (when you see that swollen "gasket" the cam seal is obviously a "leaker"). You might have an easier time if you either marked the belt before you took it out (to re use it) or just replaced it since you WILL remove it to do the work. It's a full "front of the engine teardown" - including removing the cam sprockets to get at the cam seals. Might as well do all the seals at the same time (which means taking off the oil pump for "ease" of doing it) and could even consider another set of valve cover gaskets. Try the crowfoot wrench trick I "discovered" to hold the sprocket in place if you want to reuse the timing belt - it wouldn't take kindly to being used to hold the sprocket while loosening the bolt. Go get a paint pen to mark the belt and use a ruler to make the line straight if you try to reuse it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 the drivers side cam also has an oring behind the cap. the seal presses into the cap and the cap bolts onto the front of the engine. behind that cap is an oring. it's the same oring that i believe is on the cap at the rear passengers side of the engine too. replace those orings, particularly the one behind the front cam seal while the timing belt is off. check all your timing pulleys while the belt is off as well. regrease or replace as necessary. any rough feeling or noise is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted April 1, 2008 Author Share Posted April 1, 2008 thanks guys.......like i said i just did the timing belt about 15k ago and ALL the pulleys and tensiors are good,the oil pump is dry, the water pump was just done,and the front cranks seal is dry,brand new valve cover gaskets... i got the cam seals today and the o rings.......do i have to like index the cam sprokets or anything before i remove them?.......grossgary- so let me get this straight 1 oring and 1 cam seal go in the front of the drivers side head/cam cap 1 oring goes in the rear cam cap on the passangers side head 1 cam seal goes in the front of the passangers side head......... oh also do i have to drain the oil to do this job? Should i lube the o rings or the cam seals a little with oil or anything before install? sorry for all the questions....i read the haynes manual and it wasnt too clear....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 No need to drain the oil. It's all "dry" up there and you aren't going into the "system" anyway. I didn't do the o-rings because they are not a "moving" part - once compressed, they just sit there. Either they leak from the get go or not - and barring anything to MAKE them leak, they won't. There's no pressure behind them to cause a leak. IF you take it apart, then you would replace them - it's easier if you take off the driver's side cam tower for access, but aside from that, I wouldn't do the o-ring. The seals are a "moving part" (the cam) and over time will wear out. A little lube helps with the reassembly (on the inside of the seals to help slide over the cam bearing face) so you don't chance tearing the face a little when sliding them over the cam end. just used some engine oil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 your run down of the parts looks correct. I didn't do the o-rings because they are not a "moving" part - once compressed, they just sit there. Either they leak from the get go or not .they are prone to leakage. the ones you have seen may not leak but they definitely can leak a fair amount. and they are so easy to replace - it's only a few extra 10mm bolts (2 on the rear and 3 on the fronts usually i think), that there's no reason not too. yes coat the seals and orings with grease or oil before installing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted April 1, 2008 Author Share Posted April 1, 2008 thanks again guys......i only have one question remaining which hopefully you can answer......im going to reuse the timing belt so obviously i will mark it before i take it off.......once i get the belt off and am ready to remove the camshaft sprokets do i have to index them or anything (the cam sprokets)?....... i only have about 2 hours a day to work on this so hopefully if i start tomarrow i will be done on friday.... ...thanks again for your help....most appreciated.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njdrsubaru Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 thanks again guys......i only have one question remaining which hopefully you can answer......im going to reuse the timing belt so obviously i will mark it before i take it off.......once i get the belt off and am ready to remove the camshaft sprokets do i have to index them or anything (the cam sprokets)?....... i only have about 2 hours a day to work on this so hopefully if i start tomarrow i will be done on friday.... ...thanks again for your help....most appreciated.... Hey Evo I am doing the same job soon, however i am buying the sprocket tool on the 11th to make things a little easier, my work will include timmng belt, water pump and seals.... let me know if you run into any problems as i have done this work several times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 "index the cam sprockets"? i am assuming that refers to lining them up a certain way? they only will install one way, so there's no need to index or mark them if that's what that refers to. two hours a day, you should easily get this done by friday...if not much sooner. the only tricky part is getting the cam sprockets off, other than that it is relatively easy really. i never mark the timing belts, lining up the crank and cams is easy enough as it is, but marking won't hurt either. i've pulled a few that had marks on the belts. Edit = Good Luck! and Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 thanks nj and grossgary........i was thinking i could hold the cam sproket with a strap wrench and get the bolt out.......it worked for the HB so i guess its worth a try......any other tips on how to get that off without the special subaru tool?...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 i just loosen them before removing the old timing belt. taking care to make sure the cam doesn't slip in the timing belt teeth. the problem here is you want to reuse that timing belt, so putting stress on it might not be ideal. if you pull the valve covers there's a flat spot on the cams that a wrench can fit on to hold them in place as well. but who wants to do all that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I've had luck using an impact wrench. It's quick enough and they really aren't torque'd that tight. I just hold the can sprocket by hand (watch the fingers) and it only moves maybe 1/2 inch. The impact (air or elec) is much quicker than a wrench and breaks them loose. Perhaps I've just been lucky. I had tried those Sears rubber strap wrenches and a ratchet but that's a 'bad' combo - too much 'give'. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 thanks for the tips fellas...unfortunately i wont be able to begin work until friday....:-\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 thanks nj and grossgary........i was thinking i could hold the cam sproket with a strap wrench and get the bolt out.......it worked for the HB so i guess its worth a try......any other tips on how to get that off without the special subaru tool?...... I always use the impact gun also. Use it while the belt is still on. Breaks them loose right away. If you are doing seals on an interference engine line the marks up before you take the belt off. A big socket also works great as a seal driver to install the seals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 thanks subaru360......i will def do that....thankfully i have an ej22 in a 96' legacy so no interference engine here.....i had a scare a while back when i first bought the car, i knew nothing about subarus and my timing belt jumped a few teeth...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 holding the cam sprocket - here's what I did - with a crow foot wrench about the width of the sprocket spoke, put the crowfoot on whatever longer socket handle you have so the crowfoot is like this -------!_! the socket square would be at the bottom pf the "U" in that attempt at a picture the wide part of the spoke goes into the U of the crowfoot. Now put the "other" socket for the bolt on (another handle) and hold the crowfoot in place to stop the sprocket from turning. Use the farthest outward from the sprocket hub to get maximum holding power (that's kust inside the sprocket itself - right where the spokes "start" ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE "WHEEL" one hand holds and turns the socket, the other holds the wrench with the crowfoot. IT COMES UNDONE EASILY without damage to the BELT because there is no real torque transmitted thru the belt - it is ALL stopped by the crowfoot. Une the same procedure to tighten - I used a torque wrench to tighten the bolt NO NEED FOR THE SPECIAL TOOL - just use the spokes in the cam sprocket as a point to put the crowfoot. I think it was 17mm or so (but just measure it or use the "try one until it fits" method) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 thanks for the tip aircraft engineer i will def. give that a try......the only thing im removing is the radiator fans so i dont really know if i could get an impact gun down there.....maybe a butterfly or something....but i did just buy a serpentine belt tool that came with a couple crowfoots so this will be a good chance to use that........so with one hand i have a ratchet and socket on the bolt and the other hand i have holding the crowfoot on the sproket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 That's it in a nut shell. I found that holding the crowfoot on the closest to vertical of the 5 spokes with the crowfoot down on the bottom and the socket wrench end about 90 degrees worked well. TRY to get a crowfoot that fits SNUG on the spoke (remember, they taper outward toward the sprocket and farther out for the "holding point" is better) - it will work better that way. I guess it's a little hard to describe but once you try it you'll see what I mean and how easy it really is to hold the sprocket You "could" do it with a long extension in the crowfoot, but the socket will get in the way. It's not the "usual" use of a crowfoot. I wish I had taken pictures... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 if you pull the valve covers there's a flat spot on the cams that a wrench can fit on to hold them in place as well. but who wants to do all that? You're thinking EA/ER stuff. The EJ cam is buried under the rocker arm assembly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 thanks aircraft engineer......that is really helpful...any info i can get on the subject will be helpful seeing as i have never done the cam seals before......ill let you know if i run into any problems....ill hopefully start the work tomarrow..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 alrighty....i got it all apart today...to get the cam sprokets off i used a huge prybar and just rammed it in one of the sprokets and i used a gear wrench to get the bolt out......i marked the timing belt in relation to the cam sprokets (used white out)....i got the cam seals out (harder than i thought)i think it was because they were dry rotted.....i also got bothe cam caps off and replaced the orings and put those back on.....so it looks like monday will be my next free day to work on it so in all luck i can get it back together correctly and it will run......if anyone has any other tips they can offer that would be most appreciated.......thanks again for all your inputs and advice..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 if you got the seals replaced, the rest is rather easy. sounds like you're making great progress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 yeah it felt kind of weird removing the cam caps and everything....ive never gone further than the timing belt on anything........but yeah so far so good...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 whatever worked for you is OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 Maybe this is too obvious but . . . while you have the front end opened up do a thorough inspection of idlers (especially the cogged one), tensioner, water pump and oil pump. Timing belt too. It's a good feeling isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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