1999 OBW-Suspected Head Gasket update

[stevensocial]

Hello everyone,

 

This is an update...help me solve this mystery. Last Tuesday I posted this:

I have a 1999 Subaru Outback wagon, with about 115,000 miles on it. She's a great runner, with little complaints over the life of the car. Last summer I had the Timing Belt and Water Pump replaced just as general maintenance, to avoid larger problems. (I once had a blown timing belt on the side of the highway in a snowstorm on my older Loyale wagon, once is enough). Driving it to the ski resort today I noticed my temp gauge was slightly above halfway. It normally sits at halfway, even with the steep mountain driving. I only had about two steep miles to go to the parking lot, where I would have cell phone service again. So turned on the heater full-blast and crawled slowly to the parking lot. The temp gauge continued to slowly rise, until I was finally able to pull over at the parking lot, where my car promptly pissed out a good half cup of bright green coolant. I let it cool down, got underneath to find the large black rubber radiator hose on the driver's side was collapsed like a deflated balloon. It looked like there was a vacuum somewhere and the air was being sucked out of the hose. The coolant reservoir was very full at this point and was not draining into the radiator. I let the car cool, and slowly poured water straight into the radiator. At this point the temp gauge was stone cold. I called a mechanic back in town, who told be to drive it very carefully to his shop. I drove (mostly coasted in neutral) back down the road to town, only giving it gas to keep up speed. I had the heater full blast again. With all this the temp gauge stayed at halfway, and the heater never heated up. Got it to the mechanic, who specializes in Subarus (and still I'm wanting to double-check, I know I'm just really optimistic). The mechanic got the car on the lift, found the radiator hose un-deflated, back to it's normal shape, and no coolant in the back-up coolant reservoir. The main reservoir was still full. He informed me that it was most likely a blown head gasket, which would cost roughly $1800 for starters. He told me that sure, it was drivable but would likely continue to overheat the whole way home, and eventually something far worse (and more costly) could occur. Luckily I had my trusty AAA Plus membership and was able to have it towed the 80 miles back home to my driveway, where it now sits, brokenhearted.[/i][/i]

 

Yesterday, 6 days after it broke down, I needed to move the car. I remembered that it had driven after I'd gotten it off the tow truck just fine. I started it, it had a noticable rattle from the engine. I turned it off, checked the coolant. The main reservoir.....empty, bone dry. Checked the oil....low low low, barely to the first dot on the dipstick. I filled the coolant reservoir with coolant, fresh water into the radiator, and 2 quarts of oil into oil tank. Started her up after that...ran just fine. Drove around my neighborhood...eyes glued to the temp gauge, which was completely normal. Even took it onto the highway for a couple miles...ran like a dream. It sounds completely normal now.

 

Got it home, let it cool down again. Noticed no leaking of coolant or oil. No noticable change in the coolant or oil levels.

 

So what is that?!? I thought if it was indeed the head gasket, it would overheat again and again as long as I drove it. Could the overheating last week be related to the oil running low? It's holding coolant now, so does that mean it's not a cracked radiator hoe or radiator. I'm mystified.

 

I'm still taking it into my local shop on Monday morning. They're offered to do a couple tests (exhaust gases in the coolant, etc..) for free to determine if it is the head gasket. And will post what they tell me tomorrow night.

 

For you folks out there, what's your best guess?

 

Thanks for your help,

Steven

[davebugs]

Head Gaskets at the very least. Last one I did I had to run it 20 minutes at 55-60 mph to get it to spike. Blows the coolant out the reservoir bottle.

 

Never had one consume oil at the same time. Perhaps an additional problem?

 

I'm assuming that you weren't leaving a trail of white or blue smoke?

 

Dave

[stevensocial]

No, no noticable smoke out of the tail pipe, white or otherwise. Nor is there any water dripping out of the end of the tail pipe.

[hohieu]

A water drip out of the tail pipe is normal. H20 is a byproduct of combustion, which along with condensation in the exhaust system will drip out when your car is first started in colder weather.

 

White smoke out of the exhaust after the car is fully warmed up would indicate and internal head gasket leak.

 

The rattling you hear may be the exahust shields, which sometimes goes away after they heat up and expand.

 

As for checking you oil, in order to get an accurate reading this should be done when the engine is cold and on level ground. It takes approximately one quart to bring the oil from the lower mark to the upper mark. If you've overfilled your oil by a quart or more, you should drain some out or change your oil. An overfilled engine can blow seals due to excessive oil pressure and get sloshed around by the crankshaft.

 

Hard to make a guess at this point without more info.

 

(edited some typos)

[mdjdc]

I am leaning towards HG's, but you may have a bad water pump. I bought a car with a supposed HG blown, but ono of the tests run showed up any HG problems. I drove it for two weeks before the water pump let go a second time and let itself be known as the problem. I replaced the pump and have been driving it for 8 months without a hitch. I have taken it on several long distance rides with no trouble. I hope that's what it is

 

Good Luck

[idosubaru]

EJ25 head gaskets are strange, they do not fail like other..even other subaru...head gaskets. i've worked on and diagnosed a number of EJ25's and having them overheat one trip, run fine for a few trips, then over heat is no big deal. most motors don't do this...but the EJ25 will. i've seen it and others here have too. so don't think it's weird. it will progressively get worse if it's the head gasket.

 

but...there are other components that could fail. it would be odd for a water pump to fail on you at that low mileage and age but it is possible. so hopefully the shop can diagnose.

 

in general the head gasket is more likely statistically to be bad than the water pump - but who wants to gamble with $1,000 - be sure to thoroughly check things out. at only 115,000 miles you still have a great car with plenty of miles. diagnose and fix it properly and you should be golden.

 

the "noise" you heard is very odd and troublind. that's bad to run that low on oil but you still had 2 or 3 quarts in there, so it should not have damaged it. but the noise you heard is scary. bearing issues/internal block issues are bad...so test carefully and keep your ears peeled. but the noise may have been something timing belt related - timing pulleys, tensioner or water pump. they probably need to be inspected and will have to come off for a water pump or head gasket job anyway.

[screwbaru2]

I wouldn't put much faith in the integrity of that motor. With very little in the way of coolant and oil it's probably cracked somewhere head(s) or block. I had the same senairo twice with my 97 outback 2.5. I wasn't up to speed on the HG issue with ej25's from 96 2002 or so, and bought another ej25 from a bone yard. Same thing happened to the second motor. It is starting to look like at least from this board that the issue may have ended with the last gasket desgin. I'm going for the 2.2 to slove my problem. You just have to decide how much $$ your willing to spend. There's no cheap way to get the car back on the road.

[OB99W]

[...]I thought if it was indeed the head gasket, it would overheat again and again as long as I drove it. Could the overheating last week be related to the oil running low?

On a typical water-cooled engine, oil is still responsible for about 1/3 of the heat removal (even though heat capacity of the oil is a lot less than that of water). Being a couple of quarts low can definitely make a difference, especially when the engine is under heavy load such as during a steep climb. Much of the oil cooling occurs from air moving past the crankcase, but a lot less oil will be there when the overall level is particularly low.

 

 

It's holding coolant now, so does that mean it's not a cracked radiator hoe or radiator. I'm mystified.

Yes, it means the radiator and hoses are intact. Based on your previous explanation that when the engine cooled, the lower hose collapsed but the coolant reservoir didn't empty, the radiator cap may be faulty.

 

 

I'm still taking it into my local shop on Monday morning. They're offered to do a couple tests (exhaust gases in the coolant, etc..) for free to determine if it is the head gasket.[...]

Since you may have HG problems, having things looked at is a good idea. If combustion byproducts are found in the coolant, then what's wrong becomes pretty obvious.

 

However, if nothing certain is found (and even if a head gasket is starting to go, that's possible), you might want to do an oil change, check or replace the radiator cap (use OEM Subaru only), and correct the coolant level in both the radiator and reservoir. Make certain that the cooling system is properly filled, "burped" if necessary.

 

As has been already mentioned, even with bad HGs things may seem fine until the engine is sufficiently "pushed", so don't go too far from home until you determine what's happening.

[stevensocial]

Thanks everybody for your input.

 

A little more info based on folks' postings.

 

The timing belt and water pump were replaced last summer. The oil was checked with a cold engine on level ground. The rattle was likely not heat shields as it was more of a knocking sound. The sound is completely gone now. Drove it again today about 2 miles to school and it drives completely normal.

 

I know I'm asking folks to play CSI here, and rest assured after class today I'm dropping it off at Pro-Auto Care here in SE Denver. They've offered to diagnose for free to ensure that it is the Head Gasket.

 

As for now I'm driving like it's grandma's car, with my eyes glued to the temp guage, and the radio off and ears tuned to any strange sounds.

 

Thanks for the advice on not "pushing" the engine too hard OB99W.

[idosubaru]

on one hand i'm with the take it easy notion, but then again i'd be tempted to push it to see what that knocking was. if you're dumping $1,000+ into head gaskets you're expecting it to take subtantial shifting, driving, and regular duties into the future. if you have bearings going out i'd hate to spend all that cash on headgaskets only to last a year. depending which bearings it is (main or rod) it will get progressively worse or could stay relatively the same.

 

maybe some engine guru's can offer suggestions on checking internal bearing condition? maybe it's jumping the gun but you are describing a knocking noise.

[mdjdc]

The lead mechanic at the local Subaru dealership told me to drive the P*** out of it and see if it gets worse when I had suspected bearings. I agree with Gary and think that I'd rather blow them before I sand the money into new HG's. If it is the bearings, you are probably looking at a used engine replacement anyway. It's cost prohibitive to have the block cracked to replace the main or rod bearings. A used engine is much cheaper.

[screwbaru2]

You can probably drive that car for a long time even if the HG is leaking. I drove my OB with the second motor after it overheated slightly and I saw bubbles in the overflow tank. I got six months out of it. I would have gotten more had I cared to change the thermostat after it failed closed. Check the coolant everyday until you get a feel for how fast it's leaking. Check the oil @ every fillup. Drive it normal. I'd still be very suspecious of the motor itself.

I wouldn't put any real money into it but that's me. If you buy a used 2.5 have the hg's changed before it's installed. Or check into buying a 2.5 rebuilt from CCR or some other trustworthy source. The price won't be much different between either options.

[OB99W]

[...]Thanks for the advice on not "pushing" the engine too hard OB99W.

Actually, I didn't say not to push the engine hard, I suggested not going too far from home until you find out what's going on. In other words, determine whether HGs (etc.) are bad, but don't find out by getting stranded miles from help.

 

I also suggested changing the oil, even if it's now at the correct level, unless you're replacing the engine. An overheated engine with low oil isn't kind to the oil that's left, and just because the level was brought up doesn't mean the oil is "good to go". Obviously, change the filter as well.

[michaelbteam]

Had exactly the same elusive issue on a used 99 OBW that I probably bought with the problem. Ran fine around town and as soon as I began my winter commute up Little Cottonwood Canyon to Snowbird, the overheating started. Took it to a radiator shop for an exhaustive test in the shop and we could NOT get it to overheat or lose fluid! I tried a good stop-leak solution but no luck.

I finally deduced that a tiny head gasket leak was forcing coolant into the reservoir, under more extreme driving like 3000 vertical in 6 miles. Since the temp gauge never red-lined, the engine continued to run fine with no oil consumption. I continued to drive the car to Snowbird every morning, and every afternoon when the engine was cool I emptied the nearly full overflow bottle back into the radiator, driving a total of 40 miles a day all winter.

After that I was not interested in dealing with a 2.5 anymore so I sold the car for 3 grand with full disclosure.

P.S.-the buyer said he found some high tech stop-leak that fixed the problem!

Any guesses about that?

[stevensocial]

Hi everybody,

 

Just got the car back from the mechanic. Who confirmed exhaust gases in the coolant. Definitely the head gasket. Most likely something that isn't a problem until the engine is hot, gases build up, with the coolant leaking into the head the gases escape into the coolant resulting in the car overheating. The pressure has no where to go but through the radiator cap.

 

Definitely will bring it in for repair tomorrow or Wednesday. The shop will be using OEM head gasket set, replacing all the other gaskets along with the head gasket.

 

I've got an estimate for $1500, with a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty.

 

Mechanic spooked me, telling me that even though I can drive it around town now with seemingly no problems, the fact that coolant is sitting up against the heads can lead to more costly head repairs. This is why I'm getting it fixed sooner than later.

 

It's funny, we're moving to San Diego is a couple months and were already planning on having a moving sale this weekend. Now it's looking more like a fundraiser sale. Wish us luck.

[Rooster2]

Sorry to hear that you got it confirmed that the HG is your source of trouble.

 

I heard with HG trouble that some of the combustion gasses escape into the coolant, thus pressurizing the coolant with hot gasses. The gas can then be seen as bubbles in the over flow tank. When my 91 2.2 blew the HG, it pressurized and heated the cooing system to the point of causing the radiator to leak. So, keep an eye out for any dripping antifreeze on your driveway even after replacing the HGs.