Nug Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 It is in my short list, that's for sure. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=124553 Driving the World's First Boxer Diesel By Alistair Weaver, European Editor Email Date posted: 01-29-2008 STORY TOOLS Print this Save this Digg this! Email this Most popular del.icio.us We're driving the 2008 Subaru Legacy Boxer Diesel in Malaga, Spain, but we might as well be in Southern California. Everything looks like Southern California already, right down to the Spanish on the street signs. And while you might think of the distinctive clatter of diesel from beneath the Legacy's hood as the signature sound of European traffic these days, we promise you that it will be heard on the streets of Orange County soon enough. This 2008 Subaru Legacy Boxer Diesel is a European model meant to go on sale this spring, but we think it's surely coming to America. A wave of diesel technology is headed toward the United States, and Subaru clearly wants to be riding the crest. 10 Years in the Making Kenichi Yamamoto, the man in charge of the development of this car, makes no secret of Subaru's lofty ambitions for the 2008 Subaru Legacy Boxer Diesel, which features the world's first horizontally opposed diesel engine for passenger cars. "The benchmark cars were the BMW 320d, the Audi A4 and the Honda Accord turbodiesel," he says. Yamamoto admits that research started on the project nine years ago, but it was impossible at that stage to build a business case for the engine. "Now the situation is different," he notes. "In Europe we need to reduce our carbon-dioxide emissions; we cannot survive without diesel." The new engine was given the green light for production just two years ago, prompting an engineering scramble to turn a promising concept into a reality. It was a tough challenge, but Subaru has not skimped on the technology. Practical Reengineering The basic lump is familiar, a turbocharged, DOHC 1,998cc horizontally opposed four-cylinder engine. To convert this architecture to diesel, the first significant change is a dramatic 6mm reduction in the cylinder bore and an 11mm increase in the length of the stroke. Now the bore and stroke are symmetrical at 86.0mm. One of the results is a much shorter crankshaft that measures 13.9 inches, some 2.4 inches shorter than before. To minimize weight, the block as well as the cylinder heads are made from aluminum. Subaru tells us that the structural integrity of the boxer configuration helps make this measure possible. As with almost every European turbodiesel, the Subaru employs common-rail technology for the new engine. The turbocharger is mounted below the engine and connected directly to the catalytic converter, an installation that's becoming more common in all kinds of engines because it promotes quicker light-off for the catalyst. The power figures are impressive. The boxer diesel produces 148 horsepower at 3,600 rpm and 258 pound-feet of torque at just 1,800 rpm. The engine is capable of 60.5 mpg. This compares with the 320d's turbocharged 2.0-liter inline-4 diesel that produces 174 hp and 271 lb-ft of torque, while the Honda Accord's turbocharged, 2.2-liter inline-4 diesel delivers 138 hp and 251 lb-ft of torque. Meanwhile, the gasoline version of Subaru's 2.0-liter four-cylinder boxer also manages 148 hp, but just 144 lb-ft of torque. Driving in the Real World The new engine will appear first in the 2008 Subaru Legacy Boxer Diesel and the 2008 Subaru Outback Boxer Diesel, both of which are scheduled to be introduced in Europe this spring. The badge on the Legacy sedan's trunk reads, "Boxer Diesel" and the car is also set apart by the scoop on the hood that directs air to the air-to-air intercooler on top of the engine. Prod the starter button and you'll hear an unmistakable diesel rattle. It's not loud or especially intrusive, but it's there all the same. Move away and the rattle subsides immediately. Subaru has increased the quantity of acoustic insulation in this car, but there can still be no denying that this is an exceptionally (and unexpectedly) quiet engine, an aspect of the horizontally opposed configuration, Subaru claims. At full throttle, you can hear the characteristic growl of a Subaru boxer, although it's deeper than the gasoline equivalent. Really, you have to listen hard for it, and the engine noise at highway speed is notable only by its absence. The engine pulls cleanly and easily from as low as 1,700 rpm, although its best work is done by the time the tach needle reaches 4,000 rpm. The power flexibility through the midrange is impressive. In top gear, the diesel takes 23.4 seconds to accelerate from 50 to 100 mph, a veritable sprint compared with the 37.0 seconds it takes a Legacy with a normally aspirated 2.0-liter gasoline engine to accomplish the same feat. Our only criticism of the Legacy Boxer Diesel has to do with the transmission. First, the shift lever is farther forward than before. But more important, the wide-ratio five-speed doesn't seem to make the best use of the wide power band, and surprisingly enough a six-speed would be a better match. Yamamoto admits that a six-speeder is under development and will be ready by the end of the year, together with an automatic version. The Business Case for Diesel At present, Subaru's new diesel engine is destined only for Europe, but Subaru is taking a wait-and-see approach to its introduction in Japan and the U.S. At present, the engine will not meet California's stringent air emissions regulations. "We would only introduce the car in the U.S. if it was legal in every state," says Yamamoto. "Meeting the California legislation is very hard and very expensive. We are researching it, but there is no timetable." Subaru estimates that fitting the particulate filter needed to make the engine fully compliant would add around $1,500 to the price of the car. Nevertheless, Hirofumi Senoo, the general manager of Subaru's European test center tells us, "Diesel is the main focus for the U.S. market. It has more potential than hybrid gasoline engines because hybrids are only good for the city." Subaru will let others take the lead in the introduction of diesel to the U.S., but will be ready to strike if the market becomes receptive. Only the Beginning This engine is really only the start of Subaru's diesel strategy. In addition to the 2008 Legacy Boxer Diesel and 2008 Outback Boxer Diesel, the Impreza will feature the new engine toward the end of the year. And, having proven the technology, Subaru is confident that it can produce versions with as much as 161 hp without any risk to its durability, although such a power output would increase fuel consumption and air emissions. There is even talk of an STI version or even a rally special. "It is my personal opinion that it would be good to see a motorsport version," Senoo says. "A WRC engine has lots of torque but not much power." Europe has been deluged with a wide range of brilliant turbodiesels in recent years. BMW in particular has led the way with the development of diesels that are quieter, more frugal, less polluting and, in most cases, more powerful than their gasoline equivalents. Subaru is late to the party but its entrance is impressive. Once on the move, this is one of the most refined diesels on the market today. This is a boxer that can punch above its weight. Edmunds attended a manufacturer-sponsored event, to which selected members of the press were invited, to facilitate this report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 If i have the funds at the time i will seriously consider it. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 My current daily driver is a 1981 VW Dasher diesel. It gets 40mpg. I carpool with a coworker, who buys half the fuel. This is a pretty good arrangement, except for actually having to drive a VW Dasher. It is slow as hell. It has 52 horsepower. Passing someone involves anticipating the passing zones and getting a running start, and hoping no one is in the oncoming lane. Also, parts are getting very rare, and it is really loud in there. Also, it leaks when it rains. I adore diesels. I really like the power delivery of the TDI VW diesels, but abhor their electrical systems. I'm nearly salivating at the thought of a diesel AWD car. I really hope they offer a manual transmission though. If not, all bets are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 i'm up for buying a wrecked one and dropping the diesel in an XT or something. so it'll be a few years out for me. 52 hp...wowsers, i think i'd rather have a ride in your car than an STi, that would be an interesting and hard to come by experience. seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 Maintaining momentum is half the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chef_tim Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 I will also be looking at them. It's really amazing that people ask "why would you want to pay so much for diesel fuel"?? Um, because for an extra .60 to .80 cents I get to double my current milage:rolleyes: . Let's hope they come soon. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 I will also be looking at them. It's really amazing that people ask "why would you want to pay so much for diesel fuel"?? Um, because for an extra .60 to .80 cents I get to double my current milage:rolleyes: . Let's hope they come soon. Tim People are dumb. I'd personally drop serious coin on a diesel/electric hybrid, but there are none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSRBIKER Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Another factor to consider will be the additional cost of the diesel engine, typically in the US it's $3-4,000. With that in mind you have to figure out your payback vs a gas engine as well. I think this is a major hinderance for diesel sales in the US since most people don't keep their cars long enough to recoup and benefit from having a diesel engine. Do I want one, absolutely but I'll look at the benefit to value of my money and recouping my investment before I do it. I would be interested in a Bio-Diesel conversion as well. I will also be looking at them. It's really amazing that people ask "why would you want to pay so much for diesel fuel"?? Um, because for an extra .60 to .80 cents I get to double my current milage:rolleyes: . Let's hope they come soon. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVX_commuter Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 I would like to get one when the price of a used one is reasonable. so maybe in ten yeasr or so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 Another factor to consider will be the additional cost of the diesel engine, typically in the US it's $3-4,000. With that in mind you have to figure out your payback vs a gas engine as well. I think this is a major hinderance for diesel sales in the US since most people don't keep their cars long enough to recoup and benefit from having a diesel engine. Do I want one, absolutely but I'll look at the benefit to value of my money and recouping my investment before I do it. I would be interested in a Bio-Diesel conversion as well. I'm only considering the car because it has a diesel engine. Additional costs be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njdrsubaru Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 i am, i gotta make my 95 EJ22 last as long as possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 I will also be looking at them. It's really amazing that people ask "why would you want to pay so much for diesel fuel"?? Um, because for an extra .60 to .80 cents I get to double my current milage:rolleyes: . Let's hope they come soon. Tim People are really dumb, diesel is cheaper to refine than gasoline, and when gasoline drops diesel seems to stay, but when gas prices rise, diesel decides to rise too, it costs over 160 bucks to fill my dads npr, ONCE A WEEK MINIMUM. cmon guys, lets build a diesel refinery empire and sell our fuels for 99 cents a gallon, we would make so much more money than them once we got our locations set! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulwnkl Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 I might consider it, but then by that time fuel might be back down at $1.50/gallon. In any event, if diesel engines somehow do end up flooding the US market, diesel fuel will double in price or more because the USA has no more capacity to refine it. We need more refineries in the USA no matter what, but if folks want diesel, we need different types of refineries (hydrocrackers, not solvent refiners). Did you know that Europe exports gasoline to us because even with diesel-biased refineries, they have too much gasoline? In any case, I'll consider the diesel Subie IF they ever bring it here, but I'm not holding my breath... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Thinking about it.... But what they REALLY need to do is bring back the Baja.... with a diesel and a dual range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SakoTGrimes Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 The idea of having a diesel in a Subaru has been getting kicked around here for years. I mean, why hasn't anyone actually done it already? Thanks to the Socialist Republik von Kalifornia and people who like to pretend to be environmentalists, all automakers that sell in the US are now unable to make an actual diesel engine. If and when the boxerdiesel makes it to the US, buyers will pay the premium price for it but be unable to burn proper fuel in them. As far as I know new diesels with their computer stuff, catilytic converters and urea injection (WHY!?) will refuse to burn anything but the ultra low sulfer synthetic petroleum based crap. I suppose one could modify it to work like a diesel is supposed to, but then the I/M Nazis get you. Yes, it makes torque and gets OK milage. Just like any other new Soob. Sorry for the rant, I just wish people would leave a good thing like old fashioned diesels alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 The idea of having a diesel in a Subaru has been getting kicked around here for years. I mean, why hasn't anyone actually done it already? Thanks to the Socialist Republik von Kalifornia and people who like to pretend to be environmentalists, all automakers that sell in the US are now unable to make an actual diesel engine. If and when the boxerdiesel makes it to the US, buyers will pay the premium price for it but be unable to burn proper fuel in them. As far as I know new diesels with their computer stuff, catilytic converters and urea injection (WHY!?) will refuse to burn anything but the ultra low sulfer synthetic petroleum based crap. I suppose one could modify it to work like a diesel is supposed to, but then the I/M Nazis get you. Yes, it makes torque and gets OK milage. Just like any other new Soob. Sorry for the rant, I just wish people would leave a good thing like old fashioned diesels alone. I welcome computer-controlled diesels with open arms. Piezo-electric injectors have the capability of up to 7 injection events per combustion cycle. This is completely impossible for any type of mechanical fuel injection. The result? More power, better driveability, less pollution, better fuel economy. If I need to spray some urea in there, or have a particulate filter, whoopity doo. And we needed to ditch all of that sulpher in the fuel long ago. While it may contribute to some injector lubrication, one can extend the oil change interval without it. Oh yeah, and it keeps that ************ out of the air. Also, it makes diesel exhaust stink less, which will go a long way convincing the public that diesels have finally "grown up". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulwnkl Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 I agree. Plus, it's absolutely ridiculous to have 2 different emissions standards (like the Euros do) for gasoline and diesel cars. If a certain standard is desirable, that should be the standard. Doesn't matter how you meet it, just have to meet it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSRBIKER Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 The US refinery capacity for diesel is fine right now, sure we need to develop new refineries but what we need is to allocate all refinery production to US consumption. There is a member of a 4x4 board I am on that works at a diesel refinery on the west coast, guess what NOT A SINGLE GALLON IS REFINED FOR THE US MARKET....he watches the tanker ships everyday fill up and sail off to China. Until the US government gets their heads out of their asses and starts to enact laws to prevent this and repeal all tax incentives for gas companies unless they subsidize the cost of our petroleum products we are all in a ************ load of trouble financially. Oh yea that will never happen since lots of our lawmakers have hands in their pockets or own energy stocks... Long gone are the days people ran for public office to help the citizens, now it's how they can help themselves/families/friends gain advantages we aren't aware of or allowed to take advantage of. Off my soapbox for now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subeman90 Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 I will buy one...as long as it isn't some stupid expensive LLBean model and here is the biggest hurdle....a 5/6 speed manual trans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SakoTGrimes Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 I welcome computer-controlled diesels with open arms. Piezo-electric injectors have the capability of up to 7 injection events per combustion cycle. This is completely impossible for any type of mechanical fuel injection. The result? More power, better driveability, less pollution, better fuel economy. If I need to spray some urea in there, or have a particulate filter, whoopity doo. And we needed to ditch all of that sulpher in the fuel long ago. While it may contribute to some injector lubrication, one can extend the oil change interval without it. Oh yeah, and it keeps that ************ out of the air. Also, it makes diesel exhaust stink less, which will go a long way convincing the public that diesels have finally "grown up". My entire point was that if every diesel started using vegetable oil instead of that synthetic crap sold at pumps and incorrectly labeled as "diesel fuel", which was the good Mr. Diesel's plan to begin with, we'd have none of the problems that have caused new diesels to be outfitted with silly emmissions stuff that makes them significantly less efficient. I can't argue with the piezo style injectors though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted April 9, 2008 Author Share Posted April 9, 2008 My entire point was that if every diesel started using vegetable oil instead of that synthetic crap sold at pumps and incorrectly labeled as "diesel fuel", which was the good Mr. Diesel's plan to begin with, we'd have none of the problems that have caused new diesels to be outfitted with silly emmissions stuff that makes them significantly less efficient. I can't argue with the piezo style injectors though. I'm not sure that the emission control devices make them "significantly less efficient". We're talking a particulate filter. From a pricing standpoint, I agree completely. Definitly adds to the cost. And yes, I think biofuels should be much more widely available. I belive that time is coming. Did you know that some early diesels were running off coal dust? They had pneumatic fuel injection, which simply didn't work good enough. I think I'd have thrown myself off of a boat too if I had to figure out how to inject coal dust into an already pressurized cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 I'm not sure that the emission control devices make them "significantly less efficient". We're talking a particulate filter. From a pricing standpoint, I agree completely. Definitly adds to the cost. And yes, I think biofuels should be much more widely available. I belive that time is coming. Did you know that some early diesels were running off coal dust? They had pneumatic fuel injection, which simply didn't work good enough. I think I'd have thrown myself off of a boat too if I had to figure out how to inject coal dust into an already pressurized cylinder. Everything ran off cold dust at the begining. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SakoTGrimes Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 The coal dust engines were actually called "hot bulb" engines and technically were not diesel, but are often referred to as "semi-diesels" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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