Need Help...Not Starting....

[simbey1982]

Alright so i have just finished the following on my 92 Legacy Turbo

 

1. Headgasket Job with pressure tested and resurfaced (.004) heads

2. Replaced Timing belt

 

Engine was removed from the vehicle and stripped down to shortblock. Engine then was put back together to longblock then put back in car. Connections were checked and re checked.

 

Everything was hooked up all fluids are in. I turn the key and it just turns over. I figured it needed to pressurise fuel system. I keep turning it over....no firing.

 

recheck sensor connections...take off fuel feed and fuel spurts everywhere...take a plug wire and stick a screwdriver in it and rest it near a ground point, strong spark...Then i tore it half way apart and re did the timing...same thing..

 

It just turns over with no firing...while turning over i hear an AIR thumping sound coming out of the throttle body "thwump, thwump, thwump" in sync with engine turning over.

 

SO....questions are

 

1. Can i try to read the ECU codes and get something out if it without a successful startup?

 

2. THe knock sensor female end broke when removing the engine...i replaced it with crimp ends and soldered them...would that do anything like this?

 

3. WHAT THE HECK IS CAUSING THIS???!!!!!

 

Thanks

[john in KY]

Quite often the problem described is caused by using the wrong timing mark on the balancer. Seems everyone the first time they replace the timing belt makes this mistake.

[EVOthis]

yeah same.....i would def. check your timing one last time...i just did the timing belt on my ej22 for the third time......i guess third time is a charm because the first two times i did it i was a few teeth off each time......i would also check compression.....

[sea#3]

You might want to check that you have the pulleys on the correct cam shaft .

The left cam sprocket has bumps on the inside edge for the cam sensor , they should be marked left and right

But It's like john in KY says check your t-marks again- see attatched

T-belt marks.doc

[simbey1982]

i checked the cam sprockets which were marked L and R. I put the cam sprokets and the crank sprocket at 90 degrees then aligned the marks on the timing belt with those....how would it have come out of timing???

[simbey1982]

bump

[OB99W]

[...]It just turns over with no firing...while turning over i hear an AIR thumping sound coming out of the throttle body "thwump, thwump, thwump" in sync with engine turning over.[...]

If I'm understanding your description, that sounds like compression pressure is being released when intake valves are opening. If so, that's an obvious sign of mistiming between crank and cams. You could do a compression test...

 

i checked the cam sprockets which were marked L and R. I put the cam sprokets and the crank sprocket at 90 degrees then aligned the marks on the timing belt with those....how would it have come out of timing???

...but I'd suggest rechecking the timing. Is it possible you've used the wrong marks? Don't use the arrows. See the following links.

 

2.2 Liter, timing belt:

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/2.2SingleOverWin01.pdf

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/2.2Liter.pdf

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/TBeltEWWin05.pdf

 

Motor Magazine series; starts with 2.2, then moves on to 2.5:

http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/072001_08.pdf

http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/082001_08.pdf

http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/092001_08.pdf

http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/102001_08.pdf

http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/112001_08.pdf

[aircraft engineer]

Be careful, though, if you are trying to use the "big" full engine picture in

 

102001_08.pdf (the 4th picture down)

 

as a guide - the picture was printed BACKWARDS with "right and left reversed on the engine. THEY PRINTED THE PICTURE WITH THE NEGATIVE UPSIDE DOWN!!

[OB99W]

[...]102001_08.pdf [...]the picture was printed BACKWARDS with "right and left reversed on the engine. THEY PRINTED THE PICTURE WITH THE NEGATIVE UPSIDE DOWN!!

How do you know the neg was flipped? Maybe the pic was taken using a mirror, or it's from a JDM model, or a Subaru from an alternate universe.

 

Okay, it's reversed. If nothing else, the oil filler position is a giveaway. Fortunately, it's for the 2.5, which isn't the engine currently being discussed.

[simbey1982]

Ughh...im not sure what i could be doing wrong....i followed a manual just like you provided to install the timing belt...lined up marks on the sprokets with the marks on the timing cover... then installed the belt in the correct rotational direction with the lines on the belt aligned with marks on the sproket....what am i doing wrong???

[aircraft engineer]

the cams are timed to the crank and all the marks line up. so the belt timing is OK. Do you still have the timing belt cover off? Pull of the pulley and rotate the crank cogged pulley around until it has the keyway is down. The cam marks should line up to the notches (yeah, I know you said it's all lined up, this is just a check). IF the marks line up, the timing is OK.

 

But still no spark. Hmmm - how about a bad connection cam or crank sensor connection? All the pins straight on the connector? bad sensor itself? Those connections snap tight when they connect - push them in all the way.

 

This was a 2 cam engine, right? If it's a 4 cam then a pair of cams might be swapped? (I admit to knowing NOTHING about that engine)

[john in KY]

[aircraft engineer]

The reason it is BLUE is because it thinks it's a LINK (I clicked on it and it tried to open a window)

[john in KY]

Haven't yet figured out how to generate a link. That 2-week old post I tried to direct the OP to pretty much explains what went wrong and how to do the belt right.

[simbey1982]

you have that link?? Yes 2.2s are SOHC...i shudder at the thought of the subaru DOHC

[OB99W]

[...]But still no spark.[...]

The OP's first post of this thread said "...take a plug wire and stick a screwdriver in it and rest it near a ground point, strong spark...", so that's apparently not an issue.

 

Simbey1982, there are several ways to continue diagnosing this. We know the engine needs fuel, air, compression, and spark (correctly timed) -- since you've already checked for most of those, it might be useful at this point to determine compression. (I'm still wondering about the "AIR thumping sound coming out of the throttle body" that you previously mentioned.)

[aircraft engineer]

the woosh as the sound of the obvious goes flying right over my head...

 

So if there's spark, then a quick way to check if it's doing anything at all is to squirt a bit of gas into the intake and crank away. If it fires, then the issue is fuel

[simbey1982]

you mean squirt a bit of fuel in the cylinder not the intake??

[Gloyale]

I believe you used the wrong mark on the crank sprocket. NOT the arrows! The crank mark is actually on the one of the tabs on the back of the sprocket. If you used the arrow, you're valve timing will be off(which explains compressed air out the intake)

[john in KY]

you have that link?? Yes 2.2s are SOHC...i shudder at the thought of the subaru DOHC

 

Best I can do is to tell you to goggle "Endwrench win 01". The article will show you what you did wrong.

 

(Looking for the winter of 2001 endwrench publication.)

[OB99W]

I believe you used the wrong mark on the crank sprocket. NOT the arrows! The crank mark is actually on the one of the tabs on the back of the sprocket. If you used the arrow, you're valve timing will be off(which explains compressed air out the intake)

That was my take on it too (see my post #7 in this thread), but simbey1982 says timing is okay and that's why I'd like to see compression readings.

[simbey1982]

I didnt use the arrow on the sprockets. I used the correct timing mark.

 

So what i am gathering is i need to do a compression check....but wont i get inaccurate results since its not firing?

 

Also how do i check to see if fuel is getting to the cylinders? its getting past the filter but once it gets to the engine i dont know how to effectively check it.

 

Thanks for the help:popcorn:

[OB99W]

[...]So what i am gathering is i need to do a compression check....but wont i get inaccurate results since its not firing?[...]

During compression testing the engine is only cranked (not started), so ability to fire or not shouldn't affect accuracy of the readings to a great degree -- however, a cold engine with poorly distributed oil will have somewhat lower readings. All spark plugs should be pulled, the coil pack primary should be disconnected, and the injectors electrically disconnected to prevent fuel from entering the cylinders during the test (assuming that can happen; see below).

 

 

Also how do i check to see if fuel is getting to the cylinders? its getting past the filter but once it gets to the engine i dont know how to effectively check it.

You could verify that the injectors are pulsing, but even that doesn't ensure that fuel is actually entering the cylinders. Since the spark plugs need to be pulled to check compression anyway, you could crank the engine a bit, and then pull a plug -- the plug tip should be wet with gas (because the engine isn't firing).

 

By the way, did you try aircraft engineer's suggestion "to squirt a bit of gas into the intake and crank away", to see if manually adding fuel will induce firing?

 

 

Also, could you be specific as to what work was done on the heads? Anything more than the .004" resurfacing?

 

Thanks for the help:popcorn:

Let's hope you make some progress.

[Gloyale]

During compression testing the engine is only cranked (not started), so ability to fire or not shouldn't affect accuracy of the readings to a great degree -- however, a cold engine with poorly distributed oil will have somewhat lower readings. All spark plugs should be pulled, the coil pack primary should be disconnected, and the injectors electrically disconnected to prevent fuel from entering the cylinders during the test (assuming that can happen; see below).

 

 

 

No need to disconnect the injectors or the coil. Just pull the plugs. Then crank the engine for hte test with a remote starter switch or simply by jumpering a wire from +12v to the starter solenoid. (It's so easy on subarus:grin: )

 

That will crank the engine without powering the ECU, Fuel pump, coil, etc....

[OB99W]

No need to disconnect the injectors or the coil. Just pull the plugs. Then crank the engine for hte test with a remote starter switch or simply by jumpering a wire from +12v to the starter solenoid. (It's so easy on subarus:grin: )

 

That will crank the engine without powering the ECU, Fuel pump, coil, etc....

Applying 12 volts directly to the starter's solenoid terminal using a remote switch or just wire will obviously crank the engine. However, if I don't know someone well enough to gauge their care and competence, then I don't suggest that approach. Why? Because doing that bypasses the car's safety switch, and you never know what gear the trans may have been left in.