Rusty Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 I have a 02 outback w/108k miles which I’ve had for about 8 months. It has recently developed (or worsened)several issues. After the last couple fillups, I noticed a slight hesitation that happened pretty consistently for a couple miles. I put in a new fuel filter since I don’t know when that was last changed and my wife drove it a couple days to work (about 30 miles) total and noticed no change. The next day we took it out and started hesitating really badly. At a stop light it would idle fine and it would rev smoothly with the clutch in. But as soon as I started out, the rpms would drop to almost zero even when giving it more than normal gas. Then it would come back and take off. The CEL came on after about 5 miles and it continued to hesitate badly and jerk every time the throttle was increased or decreased. I took it to Schucks to have the code read and the guy said the only one was E104-system running rich, which doesn’t seem to match any of the codes I’ve seen listed. I’ve since then also put new plugs and wires in with no change in performance. The CEL hasn’t come back on yet but I’ve only driven about 5-6 miles. As a side question, how do you tell if the wires are Subaru or not? The ones I ordered came in a Subaru box but only say Hi-performance silicone suppression cable on them. Im not sure what else i can add, so what kind of possible problems could cause these symptoms? Any ideas would be helpful. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 make sure that check engine code is correct if it comes back, give us the exact code the computer tells you. give us a brief history of the car - any recent major work done? was the timing belt replaced (that's a 105,000 mile item)? has the air filter ever been replaced? where did you buy the plug wires from? use Subaru wires and NGK plugs only on this motor. (it sounds like you did, just checking). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickensheets Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 OEM plug wires fixed my similiar prob. at 110k miles. Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 possible Knock sensor. Get the codes read from autozine or someone, and lets see what comes up. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 possible Knock sensor. Get the codes read from autozine or someone, and lets see what comes up. nipper The good news is that the knock sensors that I've had that were bad were visibly cracked. The black 'casing'. I don't know how often they go bad and still look o.k. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 If the DTC translates to the "system" is "rich", then it could be indicating P0172. That code is set when the ECU is having to push the fuel trim lean (past a point that's reasonable) to compensate. If that's the code, common causes are fuel pressure problems, bad CTS (coolant temperature sensor), or bad MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share Posted April 15, 2008 give us a brief history of the car - any recent major work done? was the timing belt replaced (that's a 105,000 mile item)? has the air filter ever been replaced? where did you buy the plug wires from? use Subaru wires and NGK plugs only on this motor. (it sounds like you did, just checking). PO had the headgaskets, timing belt, thermostat, and water pump done at 100k. I put a new air filter in about 3k miles ago, then fuel filter, NGK plugs and the Subaru wires just recently. I got the wires from subarupartsforyou.com. They came in a subaru box but Im not sure if they are genuine or not since they dont say Subaru on them. The good news is that the knock sensors that I've had that were bad were visibly cracked. The black 'casing'. I don't know how often they go bad and still look o.k. If Im looking at the right thing, I dont see any type of cracking on it. I dont want to spend more money than I have to but is it worth just replacing it or the MAP sensor just to know they will be good for long time more? I dont have any idea how often they go bad. Probably should check the prices on them before i even consider anything like that though:eek: . I guess I'll try to drive it a little more tomorrow and see if I cant get the CEL to come on again then try and have it read again. Keep the suggestions coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 the wires you got will be Subaru OEM - so they should be fine. did you remove the knock sensor to check it? the cracking is typically on the bottom and can look like corossion/separation of the plastic/metal too. looking at the top while it's bolted to the engine won't show you enough. is the check engine light on now? the car was running fine at one point then right? it's not like it's always had problems since you got it? no - there's no need to "just replace" the knock sensor or MAP. they do not fail very often. knock sensors have known issues, but other than the cracking at the base there's no point in replacing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Any chance that this hesitation started after buying a tank of gas? I have had this happen, and it turned out to be some water in the gas. Add a can of "dry gas" product to your fuel tank. Maybe that will solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Any strange noises from the front of the engine, like a bad timing belt tensioner? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 The ones I ordered came in a Subaru box but only say Hi-performance silicone suppression cable on them. Are they numbered 1,2,3,4? I recently had a 2000 Outback, same hesitation crap. (except we were getting cylinder misfire codes) Replaced wires with "prestolite" brand, OE replacements.( I couldn't ge thte cheap owner to spring for actual OEM, Which might be made by prestolite actually) Problem solved. If they are blue, and say "MAX PROTECTION" on the side. Made by belden, then I would highly suspect them. Those are the wires I just took off that Outback. They seems to be a popular, cheap, crappy brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Are they numbered 1,2,3,4? I recently had a 2000 Outback, same hesitation crap. (except we were getting cylinder misfire codes) Replaced wires with "prestolite" brand, OE replacements.( I couldn't ge thte cheap owner to spring for actual OEM, Which might be made by prestolite actually) Problem solved. If they are blue, and say "MAX PROTECTION" on the side. Made by belden, then I would highly suspect them. Those are the wires I just took off that Outback. They seems to be a popular, cheap, crappy brand. Belden is a cheap brand, They would always fail lab tests at a very early point in time. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share Posted April 16, 2008 Are they numbered 1,2,3,4? I recently had a 2000 Outback, same hesitation crap. (except we were getting cylinder misfire codes) Replaced wires with "prestolite" brand, OE replacements.( I couldn't ge thte cheap owner to spring for actual OEM, Which might be made by prestolite actually) Problem solved. If they are blue, and say "MAX PROTECTION" on the side. Made by belden, then I would highly suspect them. Those are the wires I just took off that Outback. They seems to be a popular, cheap, crappy brand. No, the new "subaru" ones are black and arent numbered and have no name on them. I thought it was strange that they werent but I dont know what genuine ones should look like. The old ones I took out were numbered and say Packard 0102 R-16-AIPS so I dont know if those are the originals or not. The major hesitations started after I put a new fuel filter on but before I did anything with the wires (although it was hesitating occasionally before I did the filter) so Im kind of doubting they were the major or only problem. Hoping I'll have time tonight to drive it some more and get the CEL to come back on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 [...]The major hesitations started after I put a new fuel filter on[...]These may be of interest:http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/OBDSpring04.pdf http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/FeedNov06EW.pdf http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/07FebFuelEW.pdf Hoping I'll have time tonight to drive it some more and get the CEL to come back on.Good; getting any codes read would be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Posted May 4, 2008 Author Share Posted May 4, 2008 These may be of interest:http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/OBDSpring04.pdf I saw that before and for a couple days I thought that might have been the problem because it started running almost normal. I finally was able to get the codes read and came up with a P0302 (cylinder 2 misfire), P0304 (cylinder 4 misfire). I cant remember the number on the 3rd one but it was something about "bank 1" which i think has somehting to do with the front O2 sensor? The Schucks guy said he thought that the misfires probably caused the other one, but who knows. The other 2 schucks i went to didnt know how to use the scanner. Yesterday I decided to take it on a longer freeway trip yesterday since I dont drive it that much. The CEL came back on as soon as i started driving and it started jerking a bunch again. I had a hard time even keeping the speed limit on the freeway in 5th gear. When i gave it gas, nothing would happen most of the time even when floored. Then it would just take off. When i let off the gas it would start jerking again so bad i would have to push the clutch in. A couple times i was nearly stuck in the middle of an intersection because the car wouldnt go from a stop. I had to pump the gas a bunch to get the rpms up and then ride the clutch a bunch to get it going. It would almost die and giving it gas didnt seem to do anything. I put some fuel injector cleaner in and some new gas to see if that would help but so far nothing. Coming home last night I found that if i kept it in 4th and the rpm's at 4200 it cruised along just fine but if it droped below that or I shifted to 5th (which also dropped it down) it would start jerking again. Any more ideas? Im lacking on the time/knowledge to do much major stuff so Im probably going to have to take it to someone if I cant get it figured out. Ive been wishing I had kept my 87 wagon, it didnt seem to have any problems in 215k+ miles:rolleyes:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted May 4, 2008 Share Posted May 4, 2008 After reading your original post, and responses, I am debating if you have an ignition or a fuel problem. On the ignition side, it could be coil pack or spark plug wires. On the fuel side, it could be water in the gas, or clogged fuel filter. Hmmm....maybe not clogged fuel filter, or car would not hold a steady 4,000 plus engine rpm for very long. Still, you might try adding a can of "dry gas" to the fuel. It is a different product then fuel injection cleaner. Try again for a code read again. Keep us posted on what the codes may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 We are beyond codes here, its time for tried and true 1930's technlogy. Put a fuel pressure gauge on the car and lets rule that out. Get a vacum gauge and tell us what it is reading. My feeling is that the ignition is breaking up at high load. The ignition system is under a higher load in 5th gear, then in fourth, even though the engine rpm may be the same. I cant scroll back as i'm typing, but lets make sure some things are ruled out that can affect igintion. Knock sensor (though that will affect performance not make a miss) OE ignition wires OE recomended spark plugs. I am getting the feeling it may be the coil pack, but i can't tell without an oscilliscope. It sounds like a classic coil failure to me. It can drive you batty. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Posted May 13, 2008 Author Share Posted May 13, 2008 Dealer says it has a system running rich code and needs a new catalytic converter and 02 sensor for a total of $1392:eek:. I know the cats are expensive but are they that much? Is this a problem that would just happen almost over night? Are they full of crap or is it goodbye tax rebate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Replace the front O2 sensor only first. Its a simple enough job, get the OE sensor from an on line supllier. See if that clears it up, as it usually does 98% of the time. You may be that 2% with a bad cat, but either way youll need a new O2 sensor, so no risk. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Dealer says it has a system running rich code[...]What is the code number (Pxxxx) (not the code definition as you've provided)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-fleet-feet Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Two simple checks: did you check they ran the correct wire to the correct plug, and that they are all tight? Are all your plugs in tight? Don't crank them down, just 'feel' for wiggles. And, I blush to suggest this, but did you install the fuel filter in the correct direction? It's easy to swap the lines and do it backwards. You should do the front O2 sensor anyway; it's a cheap fix, and it's probably the cause of the code, NOT the Cat. If you keep driving on it, though, it can cause more damage, so get it done as soon as you're able. Search O2 sensor on here, you'll read lots of stories about how a stealer said the Cat was needed and it really wasn't - just the sensor. Just because a dealer did the wires doesn't mean they did it right! Every mechanic has to learn on someone's car... maybe yours! (and if you did it yourself, sorry - my bad) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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