Help diagnosing my TOD

[Andy FitzGibbon]

I've searched and read through many posts on TOD and HLAs, but am going to lay my specific symptoms out here in case someone has any ideas.

The car is an '85 GL with a Weber. Body has 132K miles, and the engine has less (I don't know the exact mileage of this engine, just have a receipt for when the original was replaced with a "low-mileage engine" at 93K). The engine is very clean inside, very little carbon build up and virtually no oil sludge in the heads or cam cases. Last fall I took it apart to do head gaskets. At the same time I did oil pump seals, camshaft seals, cam carrier o-rings, cam case o-rings (metal reinforced), timing belts, ect. The main seals were not leaking, so I left them alone. The HLAs seemed to pump up OK and the oil pump dimensions were within spec. The oil pan has no major leaks so I didn't mess with it either.

The engine runs great now. The only oil leaks are very slight and are coming from either the cam seals or cam carrier o-rings (eBay parts, now I know better). Not enough to even mark the pavement, just a film of oil on the front corners of the valve covers.

The lifters still tick intermittently. Once warmed up, it only seems to happen in the 3000-4000 RPM range, when "crusing" at 35-45 mph with not much engine load. The noise will go in and out, ie. it will clatter for 10 seconds, then clear up, then 30 seconds later will do it again. It's random, and doesn't seem to be effected by anything. Accelerating and loading the engine generally makes it go away. It doesn't make noise at idle, and as far as I can tell doesn't do it at highway speed either.

I'm running Bosch oil filters and various brands of 10W-30 (just put Valvoline in). Been changing it frequently to clear out crap from the head gasket job. Tried running some ATF through with the oil for a couple hundred miles, which came out pretty black (probably crap in the oil pan) but didn't really make any difference in the noise.

Any ideas and comments are appreciated- I know the lifter noise doesn't hurt anything, but it's annoying. I'm thinking of replacing the oil pump at some point.

Andy

[GeneralDisorder]

Are you SURE you put the lifters back in their original locations?

 

GD

[samneric]

Are you SURE you put the lifters back in their original locations?

 

GD

 

My lifters fell out when dismantling my engine (tilt this way, then that) - my own ignorance.

 

Might an EA81 experience the same symptoms and if so, what is the cure? New Lifters?

 

Also, I am not sure what the Tick of Death sounds like. My Brat's engine rattled under load at low rpms until I put higher octane gas in it (I guess timing is advanced). Does this TOD sound like valves rattling? I do know that a couple of my exhaust valves have a lot of play in their guides....

 

Steve

 

(P.S) Didn't mean to hi-jack the thread, can start another if need be.

 

Steve

[idosubaru]

details: is this an EA82 or EA81 engine?

 

i've swapped HLA's (having them get mixed up, fall out, or replaced with other used ones), put them back in the wrong positions before and never had any problems with HLA noise.

 

if a reseal doesn't fix it and you're sure you properly sealed the cam cases and such then i'd vote for a new oil pump.

[idosubaru]

My lifters fell out when dismantling my engine (tilt this way, then that) - my own ignorance.

 

Might an EA81 experience the same symptoms and if so, what is the cure? New Lifters?

i wouldn't worry about it. is something wrong with the engine? my guess is no (see my last post).

Also, I am not sure what the Tick of Death sounds like. My Brat's engine rattled under load at low rpms until I put higher octane gas in it (I guess timing is advanced). Does this TOD sound like valves rattling?

that is pinging, not TOD.

[Gloyale]

=

if a reseal doesn't fix it and you're sure you properly sealed the cam cases and such then i'd vote for a new oil pump.

 

 

He's r4eplaced the seals, and his pump was within spec. I say it's more likely that he actually needs a few new lifters. It happens.

 

Mizpah???Mitzpah???something, Will rebuild you're lifters for something like $3.50 apiece. I definately plan on getting a full new set for this summers EA82t build.

 

Maybe check them out.

[samneric]

i wouldn't worry about it. is something wrong with the engine? my guess is no (see my last post)

 

There wasn't anything wrong with the engine before the dismantle (except the pinging that cleared up with 93 octane). Does TOD sound like pinging?

 

I was just curious if mixing up the lifters was going to cause problems so I could have an answer if it starts making new noises when I get it running again.

 

Steve

[Quidam]

Hey Andy,

 

Have you tried an Italian tune up? Redline should be 6000?

 

Doug

[Andy FitzGibbon]

Well, I put the lifters back where they were when I took it apart. But others have been into this engine before I was, so who knows how long they've been in those locations. The engine is an EA82. It has had about the same amount of HLA noise since I bought it, but I was hoping the reseal would eliminate it. No leaks at the cam case/head seam. The only leaks I can find after washing off the bottom of the engine seem to be coming from the cam seals or carrier o-rings (unless there's another leak hidden somewhere behind the timing covers that I don't know about). The cam seal/o ring leaks are very small.

The pump was within spec, but so were the lifters... I'm thinking one of those two things is probably the problem. This fall I will probably go ahead and replace whatever is leaking at the cams, and the oil pump, but I'm debating weather or not to replace the HLAs at the same time. I haven't looked around much but from what I have seen it seems like about $50 a pop for new ones. Anybody know of a cheaper source? The rebuilt ones sound intriuging too.

RE: Italian tune up... I have been driving it harder, especially on the trip to Athens (3 hours), but haven't noticed any difference.

Thanks for the responses,

Andy

[Gloyale]

Here's the hook up

 

http://www.mizpahprecision.com/pricing.htm

[idosubaru]

The pump was within spec,

there's a good chance that doesn't matter here. i'll try to explain.

 

i would remove the oil pump and check the oil pump to block gasket. the typical issue you see with TOD that won't go away and is as intermittent as yours is that the oil pump gasket (even newly installed ones) get sucked into the oil ports. these are the "ears" of the "mickey mouse" gasket. one port will be sucked in and noticeably deformed. there are even pictures already posted of this condition.

 

this is very prevalent on XT6's and EA82's (having a nearly identical design). over on the XT forums there is a write up on how to create and install a metal cylindrical insert to prevent the gasket from getting sucked in like that. i'm not a fan of doing this and never have, but the point is that it's a recurring issue that is difficult to remedy.

 

i bet the oil pumps are in spec' on all of them that do this, but something about the housing or block is causing just enough give to allow that port to get sucked in and introduce air bubbles into the oil supply...causing intermittent TOD. so the issue isn't with the "pumping mechanisms" that you probably checked....like the shaft and rotor or block bore.

 

a new oil pump might be perfectly flat and help alleviate the problem...or maybe not. a few of done the insert method with good luck. i've never had the recurring issue with mine so i haven't had to go that far...but i've also had a new oil pump on my last two XT6's.

 

i've replaced bad HLA's before and in every case that i have they were noisy all of the time and it was obvious the one (or two) that were causing the issues.

 

i find the oil pump related issues similar to be more varied and random.

 

but i will say the engines with HLA issues have usually been more abused...head gasket issues, already torn apart previously...etc, which may be the case here as well.

 

can you tell if it's coming from one particular HLA or does it move from side to side/front to back?

[Gloyale]

 

i bet the oil pumps are in spec' on all of them that do this, but something about the housing or block is causing just enough give to allow that port to get sucked in and introduce air bubbles into the oil supply...causing intermittent TOD. so the issue isn't with the "pumping mechanisms" that you probably checked....like the shaft and rotor or block bore.

 

a new oil pump might be perfectly flat and help alleviate the problem...or maybe not. a few of done the insert method with good luck. i've never had the recurring issue with mine so i haven't had to go that far...but i've also had a new oil pump on my last two XT6's.

 

This made me think of something that has not been said.

 

It is VERY important to chase the oilpuimp bolt holes with a bottoming tap before installing the pump. Bolts should be cleaned thoroughly or replaced. And they should all get a dab of blue loctite before being torqued to around 30 in/lbs (not very much, overtightening will strip these bolts quick)

[Andy FitzGibbon]

Gary, I was kind of feeling the same way- that intermittent issues were probably air bubble/pump related, and that a bad lifter would be a constant noise. I remember seeing that page about sleeving the oil ports. Hopefully I won't have to go that far, but we shall see, I guess. I've never checked to see if the noise moves around or not, but from the driver's seat it sounds like several of them alternately cutting in and out. The noise will get louder, then suddenly *almost* go away, as if several were clattering at once and then one or two pumped up and quit.

Good point on the oil pump bolts. I did chase the holes, and still almost twisted one long one off while torquing it. Pulled it out and the shaft of the bolt had stretched a scary amount. I really wish they'd used 12mm bolts on these pumps.

Thanks for the Mizpah link. That's a lot more affordable than $50 each for new HLAs. At their price, I will probably just go ahead and replace them along with the pump and cam seals.

Andy

[GeneralDisorder]

Did you completely dissasemble the oil pump and check the internals? What did you check, and against what specs?

 

Of the pumps I've had apart, very few overall were not worn too badly to be reused. But then I've done mostly EA81 pumps. The pump design is similar though. It's usually not the rotor clearances that get you - it's the sleeve bearings and the end plates that get torn up.

 

GD

[Andy FitzGibbon]

I checked the dimensions in the first part of the chart in the '89 FSM. I had the main rotor shaft out, and had the relief valve apart, but I don't think I measured the spring length. Didn't test pressure either.

Andy

[idosubaru]

there are also some spring loaded set ups under the banjo bolts in the cam carriers. i think they're accessable from under the valve covers. i believe they control oil supply to the rockers, that bar that runs along the top of them. not exactly sure how the spring works or if it can really be a problem, but i always clean those out when i can.