subyrally Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 so yeah, i finally get the carb back into the brat, get seats in it, start bolting up the fenders. and now it wont even turn over, so i have no idea if my carb rebuild fixed my original problem or not. i dont know what is wrong now, i think it might be the starter, but im really not sure. when ever i try to start the engine, it just makes a loud "clang" and i think it tries to turn but just bounces back to where it was before i turned the key. i am thinking that its either the battery or cables is buggered or the starter is done. but it was turning over just fine last weekend when i swapped in a new fuel pump/ i am starting to think that im not meant to ever drive my brat. everytime i make a bit of progress, it immediatly countered with some sort of set back. how can i tell if its the starter without pulling it off the engine>? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 Hydrolocked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 Hmmm, pull the plugs out and see if it will turn over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 Did a bunch of coolant go down the intake when you removed the carb? GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted May 16, 2008 Author Share Posted May 16, 2008 Did a bunch of coolant go down the intake when you removed the carb? GD no coolant passages in my carb for coolant to get into the manifold that way. either way, i think it was the battery, i think it was leaking already, but i thought it was just water from all the rain we have had out here. i just got a new battery for the impreza, so ill try that out after breakfast. i think that was the reason it wasnt turning over, but i didnt think of it last night cause i had been driving the car yesterday, it started fine, but maybe it was already going out and starting it that last time was enough to do it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted May 16, 2008 Author Share Posted May 16, 2008 ok, got a new battery this morning, its not the problem, granted, i needed the battery anyways for the impreza. im leaning towards the started after lookign at a few things and talking to a friend about it. looks like the starter is shot, its drawing a lot more voltage than it should be and te positive cable is getting hot. it turns very very little when i hit the key, the alt. belt moves maybe 1/4" tp 1/2" and bounces back when i let off. the realy suck part of it is that now i cant get the car registered for at least another week or two. mom wouldnt add it to the insurance since it wont start and without that, i cant get tags for it. so even if i do get it running this weekend, i cant ever test drive it, thats if i could even afford the parts to fix it. wouldnt have been so bad if the bank would let me have more than $100 of my pacheck before next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samneric Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 its drawing a lot more voltage than it should be and te positive cable is getting hot. it turns very very little when i hit the key, the alt. belt moves maybe 1/4" tp 1/2" and bounces back when i let off. I feel your pain with the issues you are having - I've just had my fair share of frustration with mine. The good news is these guys on the forums can help you out when you are ready to tackle the issue. I've never experienced hydrolock but that is the first thing I would attempt to diagnose because reading into the idea, water in a cylinder would cause the symptoms you are having. Any electrical motor will draw more voltage (actually Current) when it is obstructed and can't spin. This heat is simply the side effect of electrons travelling through a wire and if more electrons (current) flow, more heat will be produced. Electrical friction ! yeah baby! Anyway, taking your spark plugs out and trying again is a cheap an quick way of ruling the hydrolock problem out. As another member pointed out recently, each step that you take isn't meant to be the final solution (although its great when it is the first step), more like a series of tests to rule arrive at the ultimate fix. A side affect of your troubleshooting will be that you get to learn more and more about how your car works.... As for no car - bicycles get great MPG Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 im leaning towards the started after lookign at a few things and talking to a friend about it. looks like the starter is shot, its drawing a lot more voltage than it should be and te positive cable is getting hot. it turns very very little when i hit the key, the alt. belt moves maybe 1/4" tp 1/2" and bounces back when i let off. Sounds like a hydro locked engine to me. Could be from coolant or fuel. You should at least try pulling the spark plugs out, and then cranking it over. I'll bet you expell water or ALOT of fuel out of at least one cylinder. Otherwise you risk bending a rod if it cranks and does decide to fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted May 16, 2008 Author Share Posted May 16, 2008 hmmm, i dont think it would be coolant in the cylenders, but it could be fuel. ill try the spark plug trick when i get home from work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 don't all ea81 engines have a coolant passage at the base of the carb? if you pull the carb off, that creates the opportunity for water/coolant to get down into the intake. the level in the rad is higher than the carb pad and gravity forces coolant upwards out of that coolant port on the intake. happened to me when i pulled my hatch's carb. if you can't see the little coolant port just in front of the air/fuel port of the intake it's probably caked with crud or rust (from carb base) or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted May 16, 2008 Author Share Posted May 16, 2008 i have no idea, but mine didnt seem to have any kind of coolant passage into the carb, the only holes there were the two air passages and the hole for the bolt that hold the two bottom sections together. either way, there was no coolant that came out when i pulled the carb. last i checked, the radiator was full of coolant and there is none in the oil and no smoke the few times i had it runnig on starting fluid. my theory is that maybe i dumped way too much fuel into the engine due to the fuel puimp not being controlled by its relay box, its hooked to a toggle switch right now since that fuel pump control box wasnt workign at all. when i get home from work inabout an hour and a half, i am going to try to figure it out some more. ill pull the plugs out and see if anything comes out when i try to crank it again. i hope its nothing major though. don't all ea81 engines have a coolant passage at the base of the carb? if you pull the carb off, that creates the opportunity for water/coolant to get down into the intake. the level in the rad is higher than the carb pad and gravity forces coolant upwards out of that coolant port on the intake. happened to me when i pulled my hatch's carb. if you can't see the little coolant port just in front of the air/fuel port of the intake it's probably caked with crud or rust (from carb base) or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubaruJunkie Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 The coolant passage stops at the intake manifold. It doesnt enter the carb. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted May 16, 2008 Author Share Posted May 16, 2008 The coolant passage stops at the intake manifold. It doesnt enter the carb. -Brian hmmm, that is odd, maybe that was the cause of the rust on the underside of the carb base. there was a small depression in it, looked like it was just something left from casting or something, i guess thats the coolant passage everyone is talking about. either way, when i was taking the carb off, there was no coolant that came out of there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubaruJunkie Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 yeah there is a small depression on the base of the carb where sediment will build. That matches the coolant port. And im sure coolant leaked out of the port into the manifold, unless you drain the radiator before hand, its almost impossible to keep fluid from draining out into the manifold. Remove the plugs, check all your starter connections and battery connections. It should turn over. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted May 16, 2008 Author Share Posted May 16, 2008 hmmm, yeah, thats the plan for when i get home tonight, with any luck, i can figure it out and get it running agian.... either way, im still depressed, i was all about getting it registered this morning so i could drive it around and then take it to the show, oh well, its not the end of the world. things could always be worse, right? ill update tonight once ive had a chace to get under the hod and mess around a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 hmmm, that is odd, maybe that was the cause of the rust on the underside of the carb base. there was a small depression in it, looked like it was just something left from casting or something, i guess thats the coolant passage everyone is talking about. either way, when i was taking the carb off, there was no coolant that came out of there. Under the "depression", on the manifold, you will find the coolant passage. The coolant is in the manifold, not the carb. It's designed to heat the base of the carb to prevent iceing. Often the gaskets under the carb do not have a hole for the coolant (they don't need to), and removing the carb will not always remove the gasket. My guess is that you removed the carb and the gasket came off clean and stayed on the manifold side? If that's the case, while you were busy rebuilding that carb a bunch of coolant could have leaked out from under that gasket and down the manifold into the engine. You may not have noticed a small stream comming from under the gasket like that. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted May 16, 2008 Author Share Posted May 16, 2008 actually, that part of the gasket stuck to the car and was a mofo to get off, lol. i am going to be working on it after i eat here, so maybe i can figure it out before tomarrow, not that it matters really. but yeah, i hope its nothing major,. Under the "depression", on the manifold, you will find the coolant passage. The coolant is in the manifold, not the carb. It's designed to heat the base of the carb to prevent iceing. Often the gaskets under the carb do not have a hole for the coolant (they don't need to), and removing the carb will not always remove the gasket. My guess is that you removed the carb and the gasket came off clean and stayed on the manifold side? If that's the case, while you were busy rebuilding that carb a bunch of coolant could have leaked out from under that gasket and down the manifold into the engine. You may not have noticed a small stream comming from under the gasket like that. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikerbob Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 hmmm, i dont think it would be coolant in the cylenders, but it could be fuel. ill try the spark plug trick when i get home from work. Another way to check to see if its hydolocked. Put a wrench on the pully bolt and try to turn the motor over by hand. If you can't, then thats most likely your problem. Pull them plugs Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted May 17, 2008 Author Share Posted May 17, 2008 well, it was definatly hydrolocked, lol i figured out what i did, i found the coolant passage under hte carb, but i had no idea it was coolant. i thought it was some kind of air passage, like a vaccuum passage or something like that, i had no idea, lol. but yeah, i had cut out a sectionbetween the airway and coolant passage in the gasket cause i though that was how my original gasket was set up, turned out to be that it had just crumbled at that spot when i pulled the carb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[HTi]Johnson Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 well, it was definatly hydrolocked, lol i figured out what i did, i found the coolant passage under hte carb, but i had no idea it was coolant. i thought it was some kind of air passage, like a vaccuum passage or something like that, i had no idea, lol. but yeah, i had cut out a sectionbetween the airway and coolant passage in the gasket cause i though that was how my original gasket was set up, turned out to be that it had just crumbled at that spot when i pulled the carb. BINGO! SO, all is not lost, is it? Does she run? Hopefully things work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted May 17, 2008 Author Share Posted May 17, 2008 Johnson']BINGO! SO' date=' all is not lost, is it? Does she run? Hopefully things work out.[/size'] no idea yet, lol. it was nearly 11 when i get the carb back on. but i was able to get a lot of coolant from the cylinders. only problem though, it looks like it might be a ,amifold gasket thats leaking, not the coolant passage at the carb. there was only coolant in cylinders 2 and 4, 1 and 3 were bone dry.so be fore i do anything tomarrow, i am going to look into getting a new set of intake gaskets for it. i owuld like to get ahold of the fuel pump control box for the car, that way i dont havet o worry abuot hte switch i have hooked up at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 i've been told that i go overboard sometimes, but i would definitely replace the intake gaskets if you suspect there's leakage in either one. it's a good way to get in there and clean things up and for as much labor and money as you must have into it by now its not much more to replace the intake gaskets, they're like $14/pair at my closest dealership. do yourself a favor and soak the intake bolts with a penetrating oil and give it time to work so you don't snap any of them. i like to use deep creep, but that stuff isn't easy to find around here. while you're letting whatever you use work you could cheep-o flush your coolant system with a garden hose to get some junk out. i pull the rad hoses, t-stat, and housing off then go to town. sounds like you're making progress and maybe addressing some important issues, so things aren't all bad!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 just out of curiosity, where are the fpcu and fp relay located? i read up a bit and i think the big black box with the mitsu logo located just above the hood release handle would be the fpcu, right? i read a post in which GD said the fp relay is likely to be found under the pass seat but i definitely don't have one there (maybe for a different car?) and i didn't even see a fp relay in a quick scan of my 84 fsm's wiring diagrams. i know my hatch had no problems with fuel delivery (until the fuel got to the carb:rolleyes:) so if i can find them and eliminate them with no adverse side effects, i'd be glad to give them both to you, subyrally...just say the word. i still have the carb'ed fuel pump too but i'm not sure what it'd cost to ship that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted May 18, 2008 Author Share Posted May 18, 2008 the black box is the fuel pump relay, but it also controls the pump as well. i finally got my friend over today to look at carb. he did a complete tear down of hte carb, including the parts i couldnt get apart. cleaned everything in and out and put all the small bits back in leaving me to bolt it all together and get it back in the car. it was getting gas to the carb, but i think it just needs some fine tuning now to get it running. i think that i need to adjust the mixture and idle controls. it wanted to start this afternoon when i got it together, but its like it just wasnt getting enough fuel, i sputtered a couple times and while cranking, it tried to run on its own for about half a second. its close just out of curiosity, where are the fpcu and fp relay located? i read up a bit and i think the big black box with the mitsu logo located just above the hood release handle would be the fpcu, right? i read a post in which GD said the fp relay is likely to be found under the pass seat but i definitely don't have one there (maybe for a different car?) and i didn't even see a fp relay in a quick scan of my 84 fsm's wiring diagrams. i know my hatch had no problems with fuel delivery (until the fuel got to the carb:rolleyes:) so if i can find them and eliminate them with no adverse side effects, i'd be glad to give them both to you, subyrally...just say the word. i still have the carb'ed fuel pump too but i'm not sure what it'd cost to ship that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 When that carb base gasket blew on my '86 BRAT last November, it wouldn't fire up after repairs until I swapped in new sparkplugs. May want to try that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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