Dealer Repair Issue

[BenHosed?]

As a surprise to my son and his wife while they were out of the country I had their 1996 Outback w/ 210,000 miles towed to a local dealer. The suspected problem was a blown head gasket. Due to the age of the car, mileage and value of the car I didn't want to put more into the car than it was worth and told the dealer I would authorize the repairs only if the engine was in otherwise good condition. Once the engine was taken apart the blown head gasket was confirmed. I was told that the cylinders looked good and that the engine appeared to be strong. Based on that diagnosis I authorized the head gasket to be replaced. I also authorized new breaks and emission repairs for a total cost of $3,000 (more than the car is worth, probably).

 

The car is now burning 1 quart of oil every 100 - 150 miles I returned it to the dealer to determine why. The diagnosis was bad rings.

 

Could the mechanic have determined the rings were bad when the engine was apart for the head gasket?

Should the mechanic have determined if the rings were bad before saying the engine appeared to be strong?

 

Although I would not have proceeded with the head gasket repairs had I known the rings were bad I am now stuck with a decision of whether or not to have the rings replaced. The dealer has agreed to take the engine apart and put it back together at no cost to me but I will need to pay for having the heads pressure tested and the rings replaced. Sounded like a fair deal until they quoted me $1,200. Is their quote reasonable? Any advise on what I should do?

[EVOthis]

in my opinion you would have been better off to just swap in a 2.2 liter when the head gaskets blew.....but now that you have put out all that money it would be a waste......the way i figure it if you already spent all that money i would follow through the job until the end and have the rings replaced.......that is ALOT of oil to go through in that amount of time.....are you sure that the rings are the only problem?......do you see any blue smoke coming out of your exhaust? do you notice oil in your coolant or coolant in your oil?......

[idosubaru]

i'm cynical and untrusting of dealers and mechanics in general. but i don't think they're to blame here. they should have warned you that there's a possibility of it not working out to your favor. but in general there are a handful of shops/dealers that won't even replace the headgasket due to the possibility of the block having issues....and then having miffed customers, like in your shoes right now.

 

how many miles has it been driven since the work? how much was it driven when overheated? it would have to be driven while overheating significantly to cause block issues, they usually survive.

 

that being said there are a few things to consider.

 

1. i would want to drive the car some more, change the oil and run a significant amount of seafoam through it. maybe others here can clarify but i'd wonder if there's a possibility the rings could be "stuck"? maybe they could seat better over time?

 

2. i would also want to verify where the loss of oil is happening and/or get a second opinion. if it is the rings then it's not their fault...if it's valve stem seals then it could be their responsibility since those were part of the head gasket job.

 

even if you address the bad rings...if it was overheated enough to damage the rings i wouldn't trust the integrity of the rest of the block. for this much money/time i'm thinking you're expecting a good amount of service from this vehicle? dont' think i'd trust that individual motor for that if it was overheated enough to damage cylinders/rings. but again...a second opinion might negate that thought.

[nipper]

If you were my cutomer (i am sooooooooooo tired of the 2.2L swap), I would have recomended an replacement engine.

 

Here is the reason (and any GOOD mechanic would do the same).

 

AS the engine ages, it all ages and wears equally as a unit. ON a extreemly high mileage unit (which this is) the rings are used to a slightly lower compression (which happens as an engine ages). NOw to doa valve job, you are restoring the sealing of the valves, back to brand new, and you also have to machine the heads slightly, which also raises compression. The rings having this many miles on them usualy are not up to the job of the restored and higher compression. Then you get blow by in the rings.

 

The first thing that should have been done was a wet/dry compression test to see how good the rings were. Even if they came out with good numbers, I would still have recomended a replacement/rebuilt engine. Nopw that you have rebuilt heads, the only saving grace is to get a rebuilt block from CCR. Swapping to a 2.2 now would be throwing good money after worse (we already surpassed bad).

 

Just as a longshot, change your PCV valve and see if that helps at all.

 

 

Good luck.

 

nipper

[idosubaru]

good call on the PCV. nipper, is there any chance the rings are "stuck" or is that impossible/improbable?

The first thing that should have been done was a wet/dry compression test to see how good the rings were.

i've heard that wet tests aren't always conclusive on certain engine layouts since the oil tends to pool at the bottom of the cylinder, is that bogus?

[nipper]

good call on the PCV. nipper, is there any chance the rings are "stuck" or is that impossible/improbable?

i've heard that wet tests aren't always conclusive on certain engine layouts since the oil tends to pool at the bottom of the cylinder, is that bogus?

 

Only if the pistons point upside down. Oil will spread out as it is squeezed and expanded with forces of compression. Wet/dry compression tests have been done for years in flat engines. It just requires a few more data points to get it all evenly spread out.

 

Also if your already starting with a 140 lb compression dry, the point is moot. All it does is rule out the valves vs. the rings.

 

No such thing as too much data, but you really need to have as much as possible on ahigh mileage engine. On anyone elses engine, I would draw the line in the sand at 140,000 miles. On boxers, I have to judge on a case by case basis, but the closer you get to 200,000 miles, the more likely its money better spent on a replacement engine.

 

nipper

[OB99W]

[...]1996 Outback w/ 210,000 miles[...]Due to the age of the car, mileage and value of the car I didn't want to put more into the car than it was worth and told the dealer I would authorize the repairs only if the engine was in otherwise good condition. [...]I was told that the cylinders looked good and that the engine appeared to be strong. Based on that diagnosis I authorized the head gasket to be replaced.[...]

While it may not be needed, hopefully that's in writing. If you can prove that you authorized repairs only if the engine was good other than HGs, and got assurances from the dealer to that effect, then you likely have a strong position to stand on.

 

 

The car is now burning 1 quart of oil every 100 - 150 miles I returned it to the dealer to determine why. The diagnosis was bad rings.[...]

An engine with 210k miles on it will be worn, no matter how well it was maintained, and could have problems beyond the obvious HGs. Any mechanic worthy of the title should know that, and verify overall condition before suggesting major work. The real issue is whether you were assured that the engine would perform well after the agreed-upon work was completed.

 

 

Although I would not have proceeded with the head gasket repairs had I known the rings were bad I am now stuck with a decision of whether or not to have the rings replaced. The dealer has agreed to take the engine apart and put it back together at no cost to me but I will need to pay for having the heads pressure tested and the rings replaced. Sounded like a fair deal until they quoted me $1,200. Is their quote reasonable? Any advise on what I should do?

What Nipper has already said is important. IMO, the dealer should have warned you of the possibility that HG replacement might not be all that was needed. If they didn't, it's unfair of them to expect you to pay further to resolve the oil-consumption problem. In your position, I'd politely point that out to them, mentioning that you felt the "cost of $3,000", especially if another $1200 were to be added to the figure, was "more than the car is worth, probably".

[hankosolder2]

Is it possible for the rings to lose their temper due to overheating? I have heard this but never personally experienced it....if the engine was severely overheated prior to the HG replacement, this could have happened- or piston scuffing/ bore damage. The dealer can only inspect the bores when the heads are off; they can't really inspect the rings w/o pulling pistons, which isn't going to happen during an HG replacement.

 

Nippper- what do you have against the 2.2 swap? It's a valid option for those not willing to install a $2500 engine + labor in a $2500 car, or spend $1200 on HGs with an extremely variable outcome- this poster is a good case-in-point. The performance difference isn't that significant. It's not going to be a fast car with either engine option!

 

 

Nathan

[nipper]

I just like the 2.5L, and i am trying to save him some cash if he keeps the car.

 

Also why swap to a 2.5L of the only thing wrong with them is a weak head gasket that gets replaced once (also on a cost basis it works out the same, i have yet to see benefit to swapping engines ecnomically unless you cooked the engine).

 

And this is an engine with over 200,000 miles on it, the rings are already tired. Over heating in this case had nothing to do with it, its sort like saying someone died of a massive stroke at 98. Well at 98 something is going to get them, same with a car at over 200,000 miles. Thats a long long good life for an engine.

 

Now if this car had 25,000 miles on it and the engine was baked, odds are the rings would still hold up, but the piston liners would have shifted.

 

The key to this sitaution is the mileage on the engine. Sure it may have gone another 10 years if it didnt thorw a HG, but it did, and it ruined the balance of the forces in the engine (that all aged gracefully together).

 

The shop screwed up on this one.

 

nipper

[mtsmiths]

I'm not going Subaru-specific here, but any good pepper tree mechanic knows that doing head work on a high mileage engine has a great possibility of causing previously adequate rings to fail.

 

Head and valve work invariblky increases compression and ... instant blow-by.

 

The dealer did not: 1. do due diligence on determining the internal condition of the engine, 2. pay enough attention to the condition when they opened it, or 3. give enough of a *************** about the customer to give him a call when they realized it needed rings too (which would have been no big deal when the engine was already open.

 

I'd be right back in their face, and if I got no satisfaction be climbing the Subaru corporate ladder raising hell until i did.

[johnceggleston]

coming from a "i don't trust dealers" point of view, i would be suspect of their diagnoisis. they maybe covering their a$$ by saying it's the rings when in fact it may be something else. something they don't want to admit. i don't know what, but screwups always try to cover it up. i'd have a wet dry compression test done, maybe by another shop before i did any thing else.

 

 

how did the car run before the HGs were done? how does it run now? what else, if anything, would cause that kind of oil consuption? does the exhaust smoke.? my caravan smoked and it was just valve guides, no where near 1 qt. in 150 miles. this thing must be laying down a james bond smoke screen!!!

 

or like said previously, they should have done more testing before they did the work.

[schlit]

I was told that the cylinders looked good and that the engine appeared to be strong.

 

Should the mechanic have determined if the rings were bad before saying the engine appeared to be strong?

 

 

I doubt you have much of a case here. They didnt lie to you. The engine "appeared" to be strong. The only thing I see is they didnt state the limitations of thier assessment. You'll try to say they should have been more cautious, but who's to say how many checks they should have performed? What is due dilligence? It will vary from mechanic to mechanic.

The engine would have needed rings no matter what, so it's not like they're repairing more than is needed, and they're not charging for tearing it back apart. $1200 sounds reasonable for ring work in your case.

 

I would hang my hat on the fact they didnt properly inform you of the well known risk of head gasket work on a high mileage engine. You need to play the ignorant customer while they're the experts. If they dont budge, you gotta decide to give up the car, fix the rings and take a chance something else is damaged, or drop a new engine in and take a chance it wasn't rebuilt correctly. I sure as hell wouldnt trade it in to them though if you give it up.

[hankosolder2]

I just like the 2.5L, and i am trying to save him some cash if he keeps the car.

 

Also why swap to a 2.5L of the only thing wrong with them is a weak head gasket that gets replaced once (also on a cost basis it works out the same, i have yet to see benefit to swapping engines ecnomically unless you cooked the engine).

 

And this is an engine with over 200,000 miles on it, the rings are already tired.

 

The key to this sitaution is the mileage on the engine.

 

nipper

 

Exactly! I would suggest that if you had a 200K mile 2.5 engine and had the option of doing HG (risky on a high mileage engine for the reasons you mentioned) or installing a used, fairly bulletproof 2.2 for similar money, what would you do?

 

I'm not sure that I would agree with you that the only thing wrong with the 2.5 is HG. Piston slap!

 

 

Nathan

[ccrinc]

Gotta agree with Nipper and Mtnsmith here: if you do the "top" end on an old engine, it's not a matter of "if" but "when" the bottom end is going to fail. For all the reasons stated so far.

 

This goes back as far as you can go in internal combustion engine technology. It's a fact of life.

With a boxer engine, I might even say to draw the line in the sand at say 80,000 miles instead of 140,000.

 

That said, are you getting a puff at smoke at start up only, or blowing blue stuff all the time? If it's not smoking all the time, it's a cheap check to put in a new Subaru Genuine PCV valve. They go bad all the time and with no warning. Do NOT go aftermarket on this one.

 

Emily

http://www.ccrengines.com

[msmithmmx]

I am doing the headgasket on my 2.5 with 190K and I was not going to do the rings. Now I am on the fence If I want to do the rings, or just chuck the engine I have no idea how to do them..... Sorry for the hyjack

[nipper]

I am doing the headgasket on my 2.5 with 190K and I was not going to do the rings. Now I am on the fence If I want to do the rings, or just chuck the engine I have no idea how to do them..... Sorry for the hyjack

My suggestion, get an eingine.

 

 

nipper

[Reveeen]

I *think* we can all attest to the fact that Subaru builds a pretty tough engine. The thing that has been curiously lacking in this thread is the length of time the engine was operated in an overheating condition before the decision was/is reached to do the head(s)/gaskets. I *think* this is the key as to if a repair/rebuild is the sensible choice in ANY situation. The vehicle in question, (in the beginning) could have been operated overheating for many months before the decision to fix it was reached, we simply don't know. This is not a mileage issue, personally I would venture on a head(s)/gasket job expecting good results at anything under 200,000 k (120,000 miles), past this point it could become dodgey, and all bets are off if "cooked" (good and proper), or run out of oil, then you takes your chances.

[msmithmmx]

My suggestion, get an eingine.

 

 

nipper

 

When I got the donor car (200 bucks) the guy included a complete head gasket set and bolts (aftermarket). I allready have 60 bucks in OEM seals... I really want to do a HG job on the 2.5 ... I think I may continue...

[1997reduxe]

I mean, excuse me, but 4200 dollars for a head job?

wow, it's no wonder that you go to the dealer and see these

600 and 800 dollars for certain scheduled maintenance jobs.

I really see people on here doling out the cash sometimes.

I still remember that 97 legacy i saw last year in PA that was

a nice bright red, the seller had maint. records, and had

the timing belt and much or all of the service done at subaru--not

that big of a deal in itself but showing willingness to take care

of the car.

cars.com

price: 3000 dollars.

mileage: 94000 miles.

engine: 2.2, oh yeah, with the trans AND rest of the car attached.