samneric Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 Ut Oh, After getting my car back together after my head gasket job I have been getting "Billows" of white smoke from the exhaust when cold. The smoke clears up after about 20-30 seconds. The engine also runs eratically - sometimes fine, sometimes hesitates, esp at low rpms. After searching the forums, my first guess is a crack in the heads although I wonder if it could also be coolant from the carb gasket or intake gaskets.... Wouldn't I get smoke all the time if these were the culprits??? I did notice a crack between cylinder 3's ports that seemed to go a scarily long way into the chamber - like as I remember past the valve guide.... I have a photo of the crack and an example of an ER27 crack from Gravityman on the site here... http://www.alonzostreet.com/steve/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=575 Its hard to see the crack but I as I remember it goes quite a way down. First impressions are appreciated - I think I'll also go get a vacuum gauge and compare the results to the chart that Nipper posted in a recent thread. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 how coolant goes to pistons? if fail is erratic, it maybe a leak on the intake gaskets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samneric Posted May 17, 2008 Author Share Posted May 17, 2008 how coolant goes to pistons? if fail is erratic, it maybe a leak on the intake gaskets In the second shot in my Gallery, the cut-out section of the cylinder head shows how far down Gravityman's crack went down. The gallery below the port is the water jacket. If the crack goes down that far, water gets sucked in with the air/fuel. If that IS my problem, I can understand why the symptoms appear when cold - more water leaks through the crack until the head warms, expands and lets less water through. The gaskets I used on the intake came with the Felpro set and were grey in color. I've heard people recommend OEM gaskets only for the intake and wondered if these Felpro ones compare. My only other concern is where the carb mounts onto the intake. The FSM says to install two gaskets (I presume one on each side of the plastic spacer block). I only installed one gasket (all the came in the kit) on the upper side of the spacer... Could water leak from the coolant passage into the inlet passage if there isn't a gasket underneath the plastic spacer??? I checked the water level in the rad this morning and its definately gone down. Gonna go out and buy a vac/fuel pressure gauge to run some tests..... Has anyone had intermittent hesitation from a faulty fuel pump before? I'm concerned that it will read the correct pressure when I have it idling but may be intermitantly putting out lower pressure when driving... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 The crack doesn't seem too bad to me. I would definately suspect the Carb and intake gaskets. It's also not uncommon for these engines to smoke quite a bit on start up after headgasket jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 i used the felpro head set when i replaced my heads but i made sure i used oem intake gaskets and i've had no troubles. i taped the felpro ones to the mating surfaces of my old carb'ed intake to protect it from gouges... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samneric Posted May 17, 2008 Author Share Posted May 17, 2008 i used the felpro head set when i replaced my heads but i made sure i used oem intake gaskets and i've had no troubles. i taped the felpro ones to the mating surfaces of my old carb'ed intake to protect it from gouges... Where did you get oem ones from? Dealership??? I just ordered some new intake gasketes from RockAuto - made by Corteco. They look like more solid material than the Felpro ones. Just replaced the PCV and tube (because it was split at the connection). It runs nice now but it may just be in one of its "good" moods. I tested the fuel pressure. It is 1 PSI on idle and during acceleration. There is no PSI with engine off and ignition on. I thought it was supposed to go on for 10 seconds to prime the system????? Was gonna try some RTV gasket sealer under the plastic carb piece next... I just ordered a new head gasket set. I'm gonna pull the heads off my spare Brat and see what condition they are in. The ones I just serviced have that crack and the valve guides on cylinder 3 are lose. I only get compression of 160 on that cyl also - all others are 170. Will keep posted with more news events. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 i got the felpro set from kragen's and the oem intake gaskets at the dealership. i think the intake gaskets were like $14. the oem intake gaskets are reinforced with a thin sheet of metal in the middle while the felpro ones are just poorly die cut from a solid sheet of their black material - apparently without any reinforcement of any kind. i used all the other felpro gaskets and seals, even the exhaust stuff that some guys say is oem only stuff too. i really want to see if i have any problems there, but i wasn't about to mess around with the intake side. i also rebuild my throttle body before installing and i just used a niehoff kit for that. no problems there either. edit: i replaced a ton of crap while doing my spfi swap including the pvc, all hoses fliuds and filters, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, o2, crank seals, resealed oil pump, cleaned out my oil pan and then some. all that "extra" stuff certainly helped to assure things would be kosher once i did get it running! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 I would bet you're leaking coolant at the carb base, 'specially seeing as you only used one gasket on the spacer. Just repaired my BRAT for the same conditions. Rough running at start up, big ol cloud of steam out exhaust, then it'd run on all four. Blown carb base gasket, for the 2nd time...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 How much have you ran this engine after the repair? You will get some smoke after you do a repair like that, but it goes away after it all burns off, usually after the engine warms up and you've taken it for at least a few miles of driving. The coolant can pool up in the catalytic converter and muffler and take 30 minutes or more to burn, or boil, off after everything gets hot. If you've been driving it and you get the white smoke every time you start it up, in the morning, after it sits at work all day, then you have a small leak. It's enough to fill a cylinder or two with just enough coolant to create the smoke. But it will get worse, it will wash the oil from the cylinders and slowly destroy your engine. Start small, the carb base gaskets, then intake manifold gaskets. Don't just assume the worst and take the heads back off. If it wasn't doing this before the repair, then it's not a crack. If it was, then happy hunting! Most time folks jump on the worst case scenario and pull the heads. But while doing the job you have to replace the intake gaskets, fixing the problem without realizing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 I would bet you're leaking coolant at the carb base, 'specially seeing as you only used one gasket on the spacer. Just repaired my BRAT for the same conditions. Rough running at start up, big ol cloud of steam out exhaust, then it'd run on all four. Blown carb base gasket, for the 2nd time...... after rereading post #3, i'd say tom's got you on the right track for sure! i'd be amazed if felpro intake gaskets failed so quickly, i doubt they'd sell them if that were the case. i couln't find just a carb base gasket except from the dealership so when i was messing around with my carb i cut a couple gaskets out of a roll of gasket paper i had lying around, felpro brand i think. just don't cut a hole for the coolant port on the intake and it works fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 after rereading post #3, i'd say tom's got you on the right track for sure! i'd be amazed if felpro intake gaskets failed so quickly, i doubt they'd sell them if that were the case. i couln't find just a carb base gasket except from the dealership so when i was messing around with my carb i cut a couple gaskets out of a roll of gasket paper i had lying around, felpro brand i think. just don't cut a hole for the coolant port on the intake and it works fine. You have to be careful using gasket paper too, some is made for oil, some for coolant exposure. I've seen gasket paper fall apart after spending hours cutting them, just because I failed to buy the correct material :-\ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaingoatgruff Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 You have to be careful using gasket paper too, some is made for oil, some for coolant exposure. I've seen gasket paper fall apart after spending hours cutting them, just because I failed to buy the correct material :-\ . yup, that's right. for short term uses like hours or days its not as big a deal but for long term use proper application is critical for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samneric Posted May 19, 2008 Author Share Posted May 19, 2008 I would bet you're leaking coolant at the carb base, 'specially seeing as you only used one gasket on the spacer. Just repaired my BRAT for the same conditions. Rough running at start up, big ol cloud of steam out exhaust, then it'd run on all four. Blown carb base gasket, for the 2nd time...... This may indeed be the beast.... While I was switching out the PCV, I noticed a puddle of coolant on the block, behind the carb. The heater hoses don't connect anywhere near so I can only assume that the puddle came from the carb.... Now to buy some Felpro gasket paper - I guess Napa will sell that... I will make sure I don't cut out the coolant hole in the gasket. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samneric Posted May 20, 2008 Author Share Posted May 20, 2008 Now to buy some Felpro gasket paper - I guess Napa will sell that... I will make sure I don't cut out the coolant hole in the gasket. Steve Made myself a new gasket this afternoon from Felpro "Rubber Fibre" gasket material. It doesn't look as "rubbery" as the gasket from my kit... A bunch of coolant pumped into the intake when I removed the carb due to the "altitude difference" of the rad cap. Drained rad down to a lower level than the carb and installed my new gasket below the spacer (no hole for coolant to carb). Put back together and started. No external leaks after run up to temp (there were before). Engine ran rough on idle but fine after hitting the gas. Still does this after about 3-4 mile run... Is this because if water in the inlet passages? Wouldn't it have all gone into the cylinders by now??? Curious - I will run it and see.... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 Nope, run it out on the road more. If it doesn't go away, move on to the intake manifold gaskets. If that doesn't do it, move onto the head gaskets. But I bet you just need to run it more. It could take days for the stink of coolant to go away. Pull the plugs and dry them off too. The biggest issue will be the coolant leaking down when the engine is not running, filling the cylinders and leaking past the rings into the crankcase. if that happens, do not run the engine. The coolant will wash away the oil and trash the bearing surfaces. But that's worst case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samneric Posted May 21, 2008 Author Share Posted May 21, 2008 Nope, run it out on the road more. If it doesn't go away, move on to the intake manifold gaskets. If that doesn't do it, move onto the head gaskets. But I bet you just need to run it more. It could take days for the stink of coolant to go away. Pull the plugs and dry them off too.The biggest issue will be the coolant leaking down when the engine is not running, filling the cylinders and leaking past the rings into the crankcase. if that happens, do not run the engine. The coolant will wash away the oil and trash the bearing surfaces. But that's worst case. Cheers! One more symptom I notice while running it (and after disconnecting the exhaust from the manifold to lift the engine and remove a bolt that dropped into the timing hole of the bellhousing ).... The exhaust gaskets (from felpro kit with metal reinforced centers) had black smoke stains on them - I guess from a poor seal - on the rear side of the engine. I can hear them blowing again now that its running. Are we SURE there is only a flat gasket that goes between the manifold and y-pipe? Shouldn't there be some kind of ring gasket that goes in there also???? Would this leak cause a lack of back pressure and lead to poor engine idle??? I know the rear exhaust silencer has just come unwelded and is rattling around (can hear that also) so I guess I am now in search of a new exhaust...:-\ If I need to invest in a new pipe, I'd rather get one that sends out the sweet rasp of the boxer - Note "sweet rasp", not "Loud and Abnoxious Boy Racer thunder". Anyone got recommendations on a y-pipe to rear section that they like??? Lots of questions!! all advice appreciated! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 If the pipe bolts directly to the head, then it's just one flange gasket. But if you have the big iron(?) manifold pieces that have the pipe going up to the air suction valve, then there is a ring gasket between that and the head, and the flange gasket between that and the pipe. Use Subaru Gaskets, all others will blow out. Be careful to not overtighten the bolts, the threads will strip out. I used walker flange gaskets last time and coated them with copper rtv selant, and it just lasted longer before blowing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samneric Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 If the pipe bolts directly to the head, then it's just one flange gasket. But if you have the big iron(?) manifold pieces that have the pipe going up to the air suction valve, then there is a ring gasket between that and the head, and the flange gasket between that and the pipe. Use Subaru Gaskets, all others will blow out. Be careful to not overtighten the bolts, the threads will strip out. I used walker flange gaskets last time and coated them with copper rtv selant, and it just lasted longer before blowing out. Yes, I have the (I guess Iron) manifolds with the metal pipes that lead up to a silencer and the rest of the affair. At the moment, I just have this piece between the manifold and Y-Pipe: I have always had to use a ring gasket like this: So I need both huh? Didn't see the ring in the exploded view of the exhaust in the FSM. I went out and bought some new stainless washers, lock washers and nuts. It only has nuts on at the moment. The Y-Pipe is connected to the tranny mount as expected and also to the rear exhaust section with the spring loaded bolts. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 It'a more like this, a fiber ring that goes between the head and the iron piece. There is a recessed groove that it fits in if I remember right. It isn't that silver crush type like you see in a lot of domestic cars. Either way, you're on the right track. 1987 SUBARU BRAT GL 1.8L 1781cc H4 2BBL (5) : Exhaust : Exhaust Manifold Gasket ItemPriceCoreTotalBECK/ARNLEY Part # 0374768 Manifold Set, Exhaust, 1 Per CarChoose: [Wholesaler Closeout -- 30 Day Warranty (Only 10 Remaining)] ($0.98)[Regular Inventory -- Full Mfr. Warranty] ($3.84) FEL-PRO Part # MS91443 {Set} OHV Engine $4.32$0.00$4.32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samneric Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 It'a more like this, a fiber ring that goes between the head and the iron piece. There is a recessed groove that it fits in if I remember right. It isn't that silver crush type like you see in a lot of domestic cars. Either way, you're on the right track. 1987 SUBARU BRAT GL 1.8L 1781cc H4 2BBL (5) : Exhaust : Exhaust Manifold Gasket ItemPriceCoreTotalBECK/ARNLEY Part # 0374768 Manifold Set, Exhaust, 1 Per CarChoose: [Wholesaler Closeout -- 30 Day Warranty (Only 10 Remaining)] ($0.98)[Regular Inventory -- Full Mfr. Warranty] ($3.84) Thanks Frank, I imagined that was the kind of gasket that connects the manifold to the head.... but my issue is connecting the Y-Pipe to the manifold...... I have bought some new bolts and washers so I will try using those with the flat gaskets that came in my kit (pictured above) ...just wanted to know if there was a ring in there as well - just a flat sealing surface doesn't seem right to me.... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 No it doesn't does it. But that's probably why it leaks all the time. Even OEM flange gaskets will blow out in time. I really think that a flex pipe, the stainless braided type, installed in the y pipe would help that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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