94 loyale intermittent start problem

[94commuter]

Hi, new to the board and there seems to be a wealth of info here so I thought i would see if anyone has had this problem. I've had the car for about a month now. the second day I had it the engine would not turn over, I tried several times with no response from the starter. by the time I grabbed my meter to check voltage at the solenoid and a helper to turn the key, the car started and worked great for three weeks without fail. it failed again yesterday, I checked and found I was only getting 7.5 volts at the solenoid. any suggestions on where to start looking? is this a common problem? I don't know if it makes a difference but it did fail after about a thirty minute drive with the ac on, so it was definetely warm..... thanks, Steve

[True2Blue]

did u try swappin coils out? and check ur grounds

[Gloyale]

Hi, new to the board and there seems to be a wealth of info here so I thought i would see if anyone has had this problem. I've had the car for about a month now. the second day I had it the engine would not turn over, I tried several times with no response from the starter. by the time I grabbed my meter to check voltage at the solenoid and a helper to turn the key, the car started and worked great for three weeks without fail. it failed again yesterday, I checked and found I was only getting 7.5 volts at the solenoid. any suggestions on where to start looking? is this a common problem? I don't know if it makes a difference but it did fail after about a thirty minute drive with the ac on, so it was definetely warm..... thanks, Steve

 

 

Let me guess, all you got was a *click* when you turned the key??

 

You're contacts in the ignition switch are getting worn. It can not conduct enough amps to engage the solenoid.

 

I myself have wired at least a dozen pushbuttons for starting in Gls and Loyales not to mention Hondas, Mazdas, and Toyotas.

 

Some people wire relays. But that still relies on the ignition switch which will eventually fail. You could wire a relay activated by a pushbutton, but that is overkill.

 

Just run a fused 14g or 12g wire from a good 12v source to a pushbutton and out to the starter solenoid. Use a piggyback connector on the end that hooks to the solenoid so the original wire can be maintained. That way you use the button only when the key fails.

 

You can wire it *hot all times*, or *hot in run*. I preffer at all imes so I can use it to crank the engine for compression testing or any other reason without having to have the key or having power to the coil, ECU, etc.

 

Search *pushbutton Starter* and you'll find it's all been discussed before.

[94commuter]

thanks, for the replies, makes perfect sense........

[True2Blue]

So u got it fixed?

[GeneralDisorder]

Some people wire relays. But that still relies on the ignition switch which will eventually fail. You could wire a relay activated by a pushbutton, but that is overkill.

 

I disagree on a few points.

 

One - I have not seen a switch fail and be unable to activate a relay. The current is very small and no arcing of the switch contacts should take place. Thus the switch shouldn't deteriorate beyond that point. It could happen, but replacing the switch is so simple at that point that I fail to see the point in worrying about it.

 

Two - wireing a relay using the existing switch retains stock functionality. And wireing a relay using a pushbutton allows you to use small gauge wire to the pushbutton for the relay coil. It also saves the pushbutton from the same fate as the ignition switch.

 

Three - pushbuttons are ugly and impact the resaleability of the vehicle. They seem hokey to most people and smack of a disregaurd for proper/quality electrical repair to the rest. I would not buy any vehicle repaired in such a way.

 

GD

[94commuter]

true2blue, no I haven't got to it yet, I'm just happy to hear its not anything I can't repair myself. Instead of relays or pushbuttons are replacement ignition switches available? I would have a hard time trusting a junkyard replacement even if I could find one..

[True2Blue]

You should be able to get anything for a 94. No problem

[Gloyale]

true2blue, no I haven't got to it yet, I'm just happy to hear its not anything I can't repair myself. Instead of relays or pushbuttons are replacement ignition switches available? I would have a hard time trusting a junkyard replacement even if I could find one..

 

 

Last time I checked, new ignition switch is was around a $100 at the dealer.

[Gloyale]

 

One - I have not seen a switch fail and be unable to activate a relay. The current is very small and no arcing of the switch contacts should take place. Thus the switch shouldn't deteriorate beyond that point. It could happen, but replacing the switch is so simple at that point that I fail to see the point in worrying about it.

 

I have installed pushbuttons in cars that had previously been set up with a relay.

 

Two - wireing a relay using the existing switch retains stock functionality. And wireing a relay using a pushbutton allows you to use small gauge wire to the pushbutton for the relay coil. It also saves the pushbutton from the same fate as the ignition switch.

 

They way I install them, with a piggyback on the solenoid connector, and the original signal wire still in parallel, you CAN start the car with the key.

 

Most of us have know that this problem is very intermittent, and most of the time you're car starts fine.

 

Three - pushbuttons are ugly and impact the resaleability of the vehicle. They seem hokey to most people and smack of a disregaurd for proper/quality electrical repair to the rest. I would not buy any vehicle repaired in such a way.

 

Hmmm... Seems to me pushbutton start is all the rage in all the new vehichles nowadays......

 

And NOT STARTING, will lower the value a whole lot more than the switch.....

 

LOL

 

But seriously, I install high amp rated, good looking pushbuttons. I place somewhat discreetly, but in easy reach of where you're hand is at the ignition switch. Definatley not hokey or "improper" or "low quality". Homey don't play that.

 

Properly fused, routed, connected, mounted, etc., It is the most dependable and permanent solution. I do agree with you completely GD that proper fusing and design of the circuit, and connections are all critically important. But if someone can't properly install a pushbutton, then the increased complexity and # of connections involved in wiring a relay is a recipe for disaster.

 

As far as resale, C'mon.......??? Really???? You yourself are one of the biggest bashers of EA82 Loyales in general tell people to not spend more than $300 bucks on one. At that price, the pushbutton doesn't hurt. Especially considering it gives a peace of mind to the new owner that they won't have to worry about fixing this chronic asian car ignition switch problems themselves.

[Frank B]

It's your contacts in the solenoid. Not the switch, battery or the starter motor. The click is the sound of the solenoid plunger making contact with the contacts. If it clicks, then the switch and the relay are working. Just like spark plugs, the contacts wear down over time with the electric current jumping the gap as the plunger gets close to the

contacts. You'll find that one wears down faster then the other.

 

Does it look like this?

The starter motor is the round part, the solenoid is the square part. If you remove that gold cap on the end of the solenoid, you will see the contacts and the plunger.

This starter is a NipponDenso starter, as used in Toyota, Honda, Isuzu, Kabota, John Deere, Mitsubishi, just about any import engine.

 

Here' the contacts. Super cheap on Ebay.

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/items/nippondenso-contacts_W0QQ_nkwZnippondensoQ20contacts

 

 

I just went through all this, that's the only reason I know.

You'll need a 12mm, 14mm ,and 17mm socket and wrench, 8mm or phillips srcewdriver. just remember to disconnect the positive battery cable from the battery before you remove the starter.

[Gloyale]

It's your contacts in the solenoid.

 

If this was true, the starter would not work even when supplied with voltage from a source other than the ignition switch.(i.e. pushbutton)

 

I have yet to see a Subaru starter that wouldn't crank when hit with voltage from a jumper wire to battery voltage. That would be the prescribed test for the solenoid in a service manual, would it not??? They always pass. It is ALWAYS a problem of getting the current to the starter, via the factory wiring/switch.

 

Search this topic and you'll read most of the time people have already replaced a starter, or contacts, or both, often multiple times(which would replace the contacts too) only to have the problem reoccur.

 

The click is the sound of the solenoid plunger making contact with the contacts. If it clicks, then the switch and the relay are working.

 

You are partially correct.

 

The click is the solenoid moving. However since the ignition switch can't provide it with enough amps, it doesn't pull closed hard enough to make a good contact. Espescially since there is some carbon on the contacts. However there will always be some carbon on the contacts, even new ones after only a few uses. Replacing the starter or the contacts will only work temporarily.

 

The point is that if the solenoid can be supplied with enough Amps, the contacts inside will conduct fine, they just have to be drawn tightly toghether. If the available current is insuffiecent, the electromagnet will not pull the contacts hard enough.

[Cougar]

First let me say, "welcome to the forum here" and hope you enjoy it.

 

The trouble you are having is due to a bad connection somewhere alright. One place you might check for it is in the connector to the ignition switch. Some have found this kind of trouble there. You may find the connector by removing the panel under the steering column. Check to see if the voltage is ok there and look for any signs of burning at the connector.

[Frank B]

If this was true, the starter would not work even when supplied with voltage from a source other than the ignition switch.(i.e. pushbutton)

 

I have yet to see a Subaru starter that wouldn't crank when hit with voltage from a jumper wire to battery voltage. That would be the prescribed test for the solenoid in a service manual, would it not??? They always pass. It is ALWAYS a problem of getting the current to the starter, via the factory wiring/switch.

 

Search this topic and you'll read most of the time people have already replaced a starter, or contacts, or both, often multiple times(which would replace the contacts too) only to have the problem reoccur.

 

 

 

You are partially correct.

 

The click is the solenoid moving. However since the ignition switch can't provide it with enough amps, it doesn't pull closed hard enough to make a good contact. Espescially since there is some carbon on the contacts. However there will always be some carbon on the contacts, even new ones after only a few uses. Replacing the starter or the contacts will only work temporarily.

 

The point is that if the solenoid can be supplied with enough Amps, the contacts inside will conduct fine, they just have to be drawn tightly toghether. If the available current is insuffiecent, the electromagnet will not pull the contacts hard enough.

 

 

I just went through this, it was a two week ordeal. During this two week period I removed and dissasembled the starter 5 times. Jumping voltage from the battery to the solenoid did not crank the starter, it just clicked. Jumping voltage from the battery to the spade terminal on the solenoid, the one the ignition switch suplies voltage to, did nothing but make it click. Only when I jumped it to the contact on the starter itself did it spin, which isolated the starter motor from the solenoid and switches. So that ment it was the solenoid, or contacts. It worked, it's fixed, how can there be anything wrong about that?

[Gloyale]

Jumping voltage from the battery to the solenoid did not crank the starter, it just clicked. Jumping voltage from the battery to the spade terminal on the solenoid, the one the ignition switch supplies voltage to, did nothing but make it click.

 

Well, from that testing, it seems your problem was the contacts in the starter. (or you were jumpering with too small a gauge wire)

 

Yours would be the first case of failure of those contacts I've seen.

 

Keep in mind, a weak current from the ignition switch will not pull the solenoid closed very hard. This may have caused the excessive carbon on the contacts you replaced. And it could end up doing the same thing to the new set.

 

In general, I still maintain that the Ignition switch is far and away the most likely cause when this issue rears it's head.

[daeron]

my car had the switch issue for a long long time... click, click, click... start.

 

Eventually it got REALLY bad. Screwdriver time when it failed... jump the hot battery wire to the solenoid terminal.. sometimes first contact, sometimes after a few tries, magic. Eventually, the solenoid burned completely, and I needed a new (junkyard) starter.

 

Got that in, next day, get to work...

 

click. click. click. click.

 

 

I figured out myself, the hard way, how to do the relay fix.

 

Two years, 40K miles, and about one complete calendar year of pizza delivery (~50-100 starts a day) and the relay still works fine.

 

 

 

There are many many places this issue could arise from.. and two VORACIOUSLY opposing schools of thought. I find a pushbutton switch with no relay to be tacky, and of a certain (questionable) risk. I find a pushbutton switch with a relay, to just be tacky looking... I'm not trying to look cool. Besides, a pushbutton switch says to any potential thief "Already been hotwired--Easy!"

 

Some say that the switch will wear out completely eventually. This happens, no big deal, i pop the hood and touch the trigger wire for my relay to the battery terminal. ALSO makes a GREAT remote starter switch, and since my "high-amp" line to the relay is constantly live, I can turn the motor over from under the hood even if the keys are miles away.

 

 

 

 

WHATEVER you do, unless your starter solenoid contacts are indeed worn, you JUST need to find a way to route some 12VDC to the solenoid terminal.

 

 

Choose your own adventure beyond that.

[Gloyale]

I find a pushbutton switch with no relay to be tacky, and of a certain (questionable) risk. I find a pushbutton switch with a relay, to just be tacky looking... I'm not trying to look cool. Besides, a pushbutton switch says to any potential thief "Already been hotwired--Easy!"

 

You guy's aren't getting the point that the circuit should absolutely be of proper gauge wire with a fuse at the source. I ussually tie into the 12v at the fusebox, so additionally the ciruit is protected by the factory harness fusible links.

 

I really want people to stop spreading the idea that a pushbutton is somehow not a *proper* or *safe* circuit. Wired properly, it's no more *risky* than the original Fuji designed circuit, which did not use a relay. Not every circuit needs a relay. In fact, I think it just adds another source of possible failure.

 

I said it before, i'll say it again. If you can't wire a safe pushbutton circuit, how the hell are you going to wire a relay???

 

I don't mount it where it's visible form outside the car, so they would have to break in already to see it. And then, A thief wouldn't be able to start (or steer) the car without the key. It would just sit there and crank. I've wired a few buttons to be hot only when the key is *on* for extra protection. If a thief got in and pressed the button without the key, nothing would happen.

[daeron]

I really want people to stop spreading the idea that a pushbutton is somehow not a *proper* or *safe* circuit. Wired properly, it's no more *risky* than the original Fuji designed circuit, which did not use a relay. Not every circuit needs a relay. In fact, I think it just adds another source of possible failure.

 

I know, and I hear you and agree: a properly wired, properly selected switch is perfectly fine and safe. I just far prefer not to have an additional pushbutton for a starter.

 

Now... you give me a bluetooth key that unlocks my doors given a certain proximity, and de-activates a disabler on the car or something.. THEN I will talk about a pushbutton starter switch. Yes, even on a rusted out subaru. THAT would be worth using

 

Shy of that, my tastes simply lean towards relay, and I tried to make both of those points clear in the first place without going on at length.

[Frank B]

So, have you fixed the car yet?

[presslab]

When I bought my 88 wagon the previous owner had replaced the starter. It still occassionally did not start but a quick tap on the solenoid would get it going. The solenoid wasn't bad, it was the ignition switch; I put a relay inline and haven't had any problems since.

 

So it could be a combination of problems, but if you direct jump to the solenoid from the battery and it doesn't turn over then it's probably not the ignition switch.

[94commuter]

frank B, I have an ignition switch ordered, sixty dollars from the dealer. I'll probably do a pushbutton tucked away somewhere out of sight just for the "this might happen again someday" luck that I seem to have.....

[GeneralDisorder]

frank B, I have an ignition switch ordered, sixty dollars from the dealer. I'll probably do a pushbutton tucked away somewhere out of sight just for the "this might happen again someday" luck that I seem to have.....

 

Unfortunately that may not fix the problem. This problem is almost always a combination of things. Yes, the switch may be part of it, but I've replaced them only to have the problem not change.

 

In fact, I've replaced the starter, switch, checked the available connections inbetween, cleaned all the contacts, replaced the positive cable to the starter, and replaced the ground cable and cleaned/reterminaled all the grounds.... only to have the problem return or even be worse.

 

The trouble is probably a poor factory splice, or just corroded wireing at some point in the crank circuit. No amount of parts swapping will fix it (many of us have tried), and short of unwrapping the entire harness (often not worth the time considering the value of the vehicles in question) the best fix is to live with the abilities of the wireing you have and put in a relay to get full current to the starter solenoid.

 

GD