smogging my spfi hatch in ca - now with GOOD NEWS!

[mountaingoatgruff]

Since the vacuum going into the solenoid seems stronger than what is coming out of it, you might try getting a longer vacuum hose and bypassing the solenoid temporarily to see if the egr valve acts better. If it does replace the solenoid.

 

PS I hope it idles lower than 1500 once it warms up.

 

i grabbed a couple spare solenoid when i got that one and i planned on seeing how it acts with each one.

 

it idles at about 750 warm.

[mountaingoatgruff]

CarQuest has 5/8th Evap hose. It does exist, and there is a rewason. You'll need it cause that heater hose you used will start seeping through oil in about 1 year times.

 

Glad to hear it's progresing

 

found a local store that carries 5/8 fuel/emssion line and its cheaper than heater hose, too.

 

it is progressing, slowly and in between all the rest of life's drama but that's how it always is. lots of other things haven't been going so well lately and i'm just glad this is the extent of crap i have to do to get this thing finished.

[daeron]

my thoughts...

 

Take the EGR solenoid you have, and apply voltage to it in your hand. Try to blow through the passage where the vacuum signal would travel.

 

I am wondering if you have an obstruction in your EGR solenoid... The decrease of flow seems to be pointing towards the solenoid being problematic, and a piece of schmutz in there could very well be influencing vacuum signal flow sporacidally (meaning it could pass tests sometimes, and fail others, and still pass the visual inspection yet not be quite enough to be fully functional.)

 

 

Visual testing aside... Your emissions answers are all to be found in a gallon of denatured alcohol, purchased at your local Home Depot. Run your gas tank almost empty, put the alcohol in, drive around like a bat out of hell for 10 minutes, go get smogged, pass with flying colors, go fill your tank up with good old dino-juice (and corn syrup, heh) and go buy yourself a steak for passing emissions. When that tank gets low, fill it up one more time to make sure you dilute and burn the alcohol left in it.

 

 

 

 

Regarding the CA emissions/bureaucracy SNAFU... Those cats have a hell of a balancing job to do. Old car owners are virtually ignored in that entire balancing act. Why don't you organize and speak up? In all that I have read about CA and emissions standards over the years, I haven't heard a single word about a citizens group concerned with older car enthusiasts, and how these new standards (which seriously SHOULD be aimed at effecting the most vehicles and impacting as little civilian freedom as possible) essentially destroy what for some is a hobby, but for many of us is our survival instinct: re-using old cars.

 

To keep a car out of the landfill is to keep another car from being manufactured. If a vehicle passes a sniffer test, then it is not polluting beyond a certain given standard. ARE there any groups of people fighting for "grandfather" right for older cars? The logic is impeccable: far fewer older model cars on the road EACH DAY; sniffer testing to ensure that the vehicles still meet emissions qualification; silencing the largest group of citizens concerned about their rights being trampled upon; AND re-use of existing manufactured goods rather than going to the wasteful effort of building more cars.

 

 

Almost a decade into the 21st century, we STILL havent seen widespread MPG beyond 35. My uncle's 72 B210 got 35-40 MPG.. how many old subarus have done the same? If the car doesn't pollute, that should be the main point.

 

So my question to all of the Sacramento-bashers is, how much have you taken part in any organized effort to influence the decisions of your democracy to better reflect your will, as a part of the population? Democracy only works when your voice is heard, and don't go giving me the $$$ excuse. 1 million Californians who love their Datsuns, their Subarus, their hot rods, their pony cars, their muscle cars... That adds up to a significant voting bloc, and there are BOUND to be plenty of others with money to help support the cause. What have YOU done?

[mountaingoatgruff]

my thoughts...

 

Take the EGR solenoid you have, and apply voltage to it in your hand. Try to blow through the passage where the vacuum signal would travel.

 

I am wondering if you have an obstruction in your EGR solenoid... The decrease of flow seems to be pointing towards the solenoid being problematic, and a piece of schmutz in there could very well be influencing vacuum signal flow sporacidally (meaning it could pass tests sometimes, and fail others, and still pass the visual inspection yet not be quite enough to be fully functional.)

 

did this test this morning. i took a connector with wires long enough to go to a power source and a ground and i slipped a couple pieces of vac line over the ports. solenoid opens and closes no problem. when closed, there's zero air flow - when open, the passage is clear and air flows easily through there.

 

Visual testing aside... Your emissions answers are all to be found in a gallon of denatured alcohol, purchased at your local Home Depot. Run your gas tank almost empty, put the alcohol in, drive around like a bat out of hell for 10 minutes, go get smogged, pass with flying colors, go fill your tank up with good old dino-juice (and corn syrup, heh) and go buy yourself a steak for passing emissions. When that tank gets low, fill it up one more time to make sure you dilute and burn the alcohol left in it.

 

i know folks who have tried these kinds of "fixes" and not only failed but had the tech warn them not to try it again. ca's newer sniffers seem to be able to tell and its thousands of dollars in fines if you get caught so i don't think that's very intelliegent to try, especially with a bar ref.

 

Regarding the CA emissions/bureaucracy SNAFU... Those cats have a hell of a balancing job to do. Old car owners are virtually ignored in that entire balancing act. Why don't you organize and speak up? In all that I have read about CA and emissions standards over the years, I haven't heard a single word about a citizens group concerned with older car enthusiasts, and how these new standards (which seriously SHOULD be aimed at effecting the most vehicles and impacting as little civilian freedom as possible) essentially destroy what for some is a hobby, but for many of us is our survival instinct: re-using old cars.

 

forgive my ignorance but what is SNAFU? when it comes to politics i can spend hours, days, weeks justifying my position as i'm sure most who have a position would. i have paid close attention as a ca resident to the kinds of things going on here and i can say that if they wanted to balance the budget, it'd be done. its that simple. ever since this country abandoned it's constitution we have seen nothing but political plundering from the federal, state and local elected criminals, that's all it is - exploitation of ignorant citizens that won't end until american society says "we've had enough!" i firmly believe that time is coming and i am a donating/participating member of multiple organizations with the goal of galvanizing americans behind true liberty once more (and i don't mean the stupid "democracy" propaganda that the establishment uses to justify it's terrorist behavior abroad - i mean the legal, constitutional liberties that our nation's patriarchs left for us).

 

To keep a car out of the landfill is to keep another car from being manufactured. If a vehicle passes a sniffer test, then it is not polluting beyond a certain given standard. ARE there any groups of people fighting for "grandfather" right for older cars? The logic is impeccable: far fewer older model cars on the road EACH DAY; sniffer testing to ensure that the vehicles still meet emissions qualification; silencing the largest group of citizens concerned about their rights being trampled upon; AND re-use of existing manufactured goods rather than going to the wasteful effort of building more cars.

 

i fully agree with your logic here. one has to understand the mindset of society, though. in the area i live in, your car is not just a status symbol - its a statement of identity, class, social affiliations, and even morality. the automobile is the religion of choice for the average superficial californian and your make/model/year is your denomination. nobody here thinks logically when it comes to cars because people have used cars as a language that transcends previous social signals. seriously, why else would any self-respecting adult be caught dead in a 91 geo metro with 20" rims so shiny its literally painfull to look at them in the sun and low profile tires that force you to go over every bump at 10mph or risk loosing your $3k rim investment (on a car that's not worth $1k in showroom condition)? i see it all day long and it makes me SICK TO MY SOUL!

 

Almost a decade into the 21st century, we STILL havent seen widespread MPG beyond 35. My uncle's 72 B210 got 35-40 MPG.. how many old subarus have done the same? If the car doesn't pollute, that should be the main point.

 

the mileage of any given automobile is carefully designed into it. we could easily be getting what we believe is ridiculous mileage now but the powers that be will simply not allow it. any why does 100 or 200 mpg sound ridiculous? because the industries that control mileage have conditioned consumers to belive that 30 mpg is something special.... have you ever read any of the cali air resources board executive orders? i have and i can tell you there's many of them that are designed specifically to prevent people from introducing ultra-efficient vehicles onto ca roads.

 

So my question to all of the Sacramento-bashers is, how much have you taken part in any organized effort to influence the decisions of your democracy to better reflect your will, as a part of the population? Democracy only works when your voice is heard, and don't go giving me the $$$ excuse. 1 million Californians who love their Datsuns, their Subarus, their hot rods, their pony cars, their muscle cars... That adds up to a significant voting bloc, and there are BOUND to be plenty of others with money to help support the cause.

 

personally, i'm putting all my eggs into the "get the hell outta ca" basket and i'm not ashamed to admit it. just watch a film called "who killed the electric car" and i'm sure you'll understand. like i said, the powers that be will not allow anything but what already is. you're talking to a diehard libertarian who's been doing his homework and i have no porblem having this discussion in greater detail with anyone who is interested.

 

What have YOU done?

 

like i said, i am a member of multiple organizations aimed at the greater solution. also, i take every opportunity to educate my fellow countrymen about the state of emergency we face. i spend time at work, while i'm out running errands, and here at the usmb trying to get people to realize this is it - we can either stand and fight peacefully for our rights or we WILL lose whats left of them. the infringement of auto enthusiast's rights is only a symptom of a greater more dire problem. we as american citizens need to educate ourselves about our legal constitutional rights or we will continue to watch them slip away. there's not enough dedicated folks to stand up for us in washington or in state capitals, we must do it ourselves. so i'll ask you, what have you done?

[mountaingoatgruff]

replaced the egr with a brand new unit and swapped in another solenoid that i fully tested before installing. same scenario, egr doesn't open till 3k rpm's and still acts funny. i had the mulitmeter out already so i checked the connector while the car was warming up and the egr solenoid connector has 13.35V across the terminals with the engine idling cold - that shouldn't be should it? i've got another ecu but i think its a ca model (with egr temp sensor). i'll be trying that one out soon enough... at this rate i'll have moved to co by the time i get it figured out and i probably won't need to have by then. my brother in thornton had no trouble getting his 88 nissan stanza to pass and i know that thing was a rolling shoebox of soot.:-\

 

edit:

i've also noticed in the last couple days that the hatch seems to be running rich, definitely smells like it at least.

[McDave]

replaced the egr with a brand new unit and swapped in another solenoid that i fully tested before installing. same scenario, egr doesn't open till 3k rpm's and still acts funny. i had the mulitmeter out already so i checked the connector while the car was warming up and the egr solenoid connector has 13.35V across the terminals with the engine idling cold - that shouldn't be should it? i've got another ecu but i think its a ca model (with egr temp sensor). i'll be trying that one out soon enough... at this rate i'll have moved to co by the time i get it figured out and i probably won't need to have by then. my brother in thornton had no trouble getting his 88 nissan stanza to pass and i know that thing was a rolling shoebox of soot.:-\

 

The reason I suggested you blip the throttle instead of checking it at certain rpms is some egr valves need exhaust backpressure to operate. You don't get much backpressure unless you either quickly ramp up the rpm, or put a load on the engine (or rev it to 3k rpm).

 

If it's an automatic, have your SO put it in drive and give it a little throttle while you feel the diaphragm. If it's a 5 speed, tee in a vacuum gauge on a long hose between the solenoid and valve (you should have a vacuum gauge in your toolbox anyway) and drive it.

 

PS I'm assuming you're not running headers and a low restriction muffler and no cats. On some cars just gutting the cat is enough to cause an egr valve to stop opening due to lack of backpressure.

[mountaingoatgruff]

The reason I suggested you blip the throttle instead of checking it at certain rpms is some egr valves need exhaust backpressure to operate. You don't get much backpressure unless you either quickly ramp up the rpm, or put a load on the engine (or rev it to 3k rpm).

 

If it's an automatic, have your SO put it in drive and give it a little throttle while you feel the diaphragm. If it's a 5 speed, tee in a vacuum gauge on a long hose between the solenoid and valve (you should have a vacuum gauge in your toolbox anyway) and drive it.

 

PS I'm assuming you're not running headers and a low restriction muffler and no cats. On some cars just gutting the cat is enough to cause an egr valve to stop opening due to lack of backpressure.

 

stock exhaust, 4speed, no i don't have a vac gauge. i'll be going to my dad's to borrow one as soon as i get a chance. time for work again already...

 

edit:

 

i decided to try my other (black) ecu real quick and holy smokes!

 

:banana: i'll a bumpy pickled banana if that egr ain't opening with the slightest bump of the throttle!!!!! :banana:

 

AND (as if that's not good news enough) the black ecu is giving an id code saying its federal emissions so i shouldn't have to worry about an egr temp sensor code, the whole reason i avoided using it in the first place. i'll drive it for a couple days and keep an eye out for the egr to stick again or for any codes but i think the problem is solved... my 92 ecu was apparently malfunctioning.

[newsoobdude]

my thoughts...

Visual testing aside... Your emissions answers are all to be found in a gallon of denatured alcohol, purchased at your local Home Depot. Run your gas tank almost empty, put the alcohol in, drive around like a bat out of hell for 10 minutes, go get smogged, pass with flying colors, go fill your tank up with good old dino-juice (and corn syrup, heh) and go buy yourself a steak for passing emissions. When that tank gets low, fill it up one more time to make sure you dilute and burn the alcohol left in it.

Unfortunately ANOTHER problem with that (besides the ref ripping apart and possible fines) is the fact that one now has to have 3/4 or more of a tank of gas for a gas tank test as well as part of the SMOG ordeal.

daeron-

You'd be surprised at what people think and do regarding CA and old cars. I live in a SMALL (33k) county and there is a law stating one is not allowed to have ANY non running cars (with or without glass) on their OWN property, whether in site from the road or behind a 10' fence. A LOT of people don't like the old cars because "they don't look nice, are gross polluters and are unsafe". Most of the old car communities have the $$$ to have an old car as a toy, not a daily driver and therefore we are able to still keep our old cars as they are NOT being driven daily. Those that do drive the old cars that are driven daily don't have the $$$ to do much and are largely ignored by the CA Government who wants ALL old cars 25 years or older OFF the roads. I don't know about you but a LOT of my friends own older cars that are cleaner than the new beasts put out from the factory and better in the mpg too. SEMA is our friend and without them, few old cars would exist in CA and those that did would have to pass smog as well (YES even the old Model T Ford:eek: ). I know that one has been brought up plenty of times over the years and THANKFULLY it's 1976? and newer ONLY that get tested but unfortunately it's not the rolling 25 years like it was for a small time and no longer 1974 and newer.

[McDave]

:banana: i'll a bumpy pickled banana if that egr ain't opening with the slightest bump of the throttle!!!!! :banana:

 

AND (as if that's not good news enough) the black ecu is giving an id code saying its federal emissions so i shouldn't have to worry about an egr temp sensor code, the whole reason i avoided using it in the first place. i'll drive it for a couple days and keep an eye out for the egr to stick again or for any codes but i think the problem is solved... my 92 ecu was apparently malfunctioning.

 

Well it's about time! I'm glad you figured it out!

 

BTW If you had bypassed that solenoid with a longer vacuum hose as suggested earlier, you might have gotten to this point sooner. But who cares, it's fixed!!!

[GeneralDisorder]

If you had bypassed that solenoid with a longer vacuum hose as suggested earlier, you might have gotten to this point sooner. But who cares, it's fixed!!!

 

I told him to do that 13 threads ago .

 

As long as the solenoid is there and the ref thinks it's hooked to the EGR (through some magical hard lines under the manifold ), then you are golden. The solenoid is only there for warm-up. He see's a solenoid, and a working EGR, and lines all around plus no codes.... good enough.

 

GD

[McDave]

I told him to do that 13 threads ago .

 

Yep, you can lead 'em to water but you can't make 'em drink. Apparently it's a thankless job too.

[mountaingoatgruff]

swapping ecu's didn't fix it. the egr was moving nicely when i checked it that day but after doing my brakes this weekend, the thing is running like crap - i can hardly sputter down the street to see if my brakes are tight. i've got a vac gauge now, just need to sit down and check it out...

[daeron]

grounding issue??

 

it could be intermittent, it could be temporarily "remedied" by twiddling around with any number of points in the system....

[McDave]

I had a '93 Loyale come in the shop today with the CEL on. Code was 34 - egr system. The customer said the light was intermittent and since it had gone off shortly after reading the codes I started with the usual checks - blip the throttle to see if the valve would open, and when it did I manually opened the valve at idle to see if it would stall. It did.

 

For grins I hooked up a Snap-on scanner and found a bunch of info that I haven't found yet in the fsm. For instance, while in D-check mode the ecu will pulse the egr solenoid off and on.

 

So I connected the green test connectors and turned the key on to enter D-check mode. Battery voltage at the + terminal of the solenoid? Check. Ecu pulsing the ground terminal at the solenoid? Check. While the ecu was pulsing the solenoid I watched the voltmeter while wiggling underhood wires, then checked all the harness connections including the ground wires above the left valve cover. No problem found.

 

At that point it becomes an educated guess whether the solenoid or the ecu is the one acting up intermittently. As it turns out, receipts show my own Loyale had a code 34 CEL light and the solenoid replaced shortly before I bought it, and the light hasn't come back on since.

 

With that in mind I priced a new solenoid from Subaru at $180, then found the same Subaru brand part at rockauto.com for $57 + shipping. I'll know next week if it's fixed, but I already feel confident it will be.

[mountaingoatgruff]

my dad's vac gauge shows there's different amounts of vac on the two ports on the tb below the iacv. the one my egr was plugged into has no vac at idle and only goes to 2-4 inches with 3k rpm. the other has no vac at idle and goes to about 15 inches of vac with 3k rpm.

 

during the swap i tore the tb apart and cleaned it pretty good, blowing the passages out with compressed air before reassembly. i bent the tubes out a bit like GD's wrietup covers and checked to be sure there was no obstruction or anything afterwards.

 

so i switched the hoses, put the evap canister line on the lower vac side and the egr supply on the higher vac side. egr opens more frequently that way, but still closes sporadically.

 

my dad said it has to be an intermittent ground issue and i tried messing with the connectors, the wiring, and the pulgs at the ecu - nothing appears wrong there.

 

also, the car has a definite dead spot right off idle. i eyeballed the position of the tps when i rebuilt the tb and after checking it appears my tps is bad. it showed proper open/closed conditions with the feelers on the stop screw but when i checked the "signal wire" it doesn't act like the hayne's says it should. hayne's says at closed throttle the voltage should read 0.5V then smoothly raise to 5.0V at wot. mine has 0.5V at closed and shoots to 5.0v as soon as you slightly move the throttle, no steady increase. should i replace it?

[McDave]

 

so i switched the hoses, put the evap canister line on the lower vac side and the egr supply on the higher vac side. egr opens more frequently that way, but still closes sporadically.

 

Standing at the front of the car looking at the throttle body, the vacuum port on the left goes to the egr solenoid.

 

also, the car has a definite dead spot right off idle. i eyeballed the position of the tps when i rebuilt the tb and after checking it appears my tps is bad. it showed proper open/closed conditions with the feelers on the stop screw but when i checked the "signal wire" it doesn't act like the hayne's says it should. hayne's says at closed throttle the voltage should read 0.5V then smoothly raise to 5.0V at wot. mine has 0.5V at closed and shoots to 5.0v as soon as you slightly move the throttle, no steady increase. should i replace it?

 

Depends on which type tps you have. Check out this post...

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=79393

[McDave]

I forgot to mention that one of the tech tips the scanner made was to ensure you had good grounds to the ecu wiring harness, or suffer possible drive-ability problems. They even suggested running an extra 10 ga. ground wire between the battery and the ecu harness ground spot on the intake.

[Gloyale]

also, the car has a definite dead spot right off idle. i eyeballed the position of the tps when i rebuilt the tb and after checking it appears my tps is bad. it showed proper open/closed conditions with the feelers on the stop screw but when i checked the "signal wire" it doesn't act like the hayne's says it should. hayne's says at closed throttle the voltage should read 0.5V then smoothly raise to 5.0V at wot. mine has 0.5V at closed and shoots to 5.0v as soon as you slightly move the throttle, no steady increase. should i replace it?

 

Haynes manuals are useless for subaru FI diagnostics, partly because they don't distinguish between MPFI and SPFI systems. Better off putting it in your bathroom and wiping you're a** with it.

 

Unplug the TPS and check the resistance between terminals B and D(power and ground). Should be between 3.5 and 6.5k ohms.

 

Now test between B and C(ground and signal)less than 1k ohm at throttle closed, and transition smoothly to greater than 2.4k ohms at wide open throttle(about 80% of the value of B and C)

[McDave]

I had a '93 Loyale come in the shop today with the CEL on. Code was 34 - egr system. The customer said the light was intermittent and since it had gone off shortly after reading the codes I started with the usual checks - blip the throttle to see if the valve would open, and when it did I manually opened the valve at idle to see if it would stall. It did.

 

For grins I hooked up a Snap-on scanner and found a bunch of info that I haven't found yet in the fsm. For instance, while in D-check mode the ecu will pulse the egr solenoid off and on.

 

So I connected the green test connectors and turned the key on to enter D-check mode. Battery voltage at the + terminal of the solenoid? Check. Ecu pulsing the ground terminal at the solenoid? Check. While the ecu was pulsing the solenoid I watched the voltmeter while wiggling underhood wires, then checked all the harness connections including the ground wires above the left valve cover. No problem found.

 

At that point it becomes an educated guess whether the solenoid or the ecu is the one acting up intermittently. As it turns out, receipts show my own Loyale had a code 34 CEL light and the solenoid replaced shortly before I bought it, and the light hasn't come back on since.

 

With that in mind I priced a new solenoid from Subaru at $180, then found the same Subaru brand part at rockauto.com for $57 + shipping. I'll know next week if it's fixed, but I already feel confident it will be.

Update:

The new solenoid was installed last week and the problem has not reoccurred. I'm calling this one fixed - an intermittent egr solenoid.

 

Link to the part @ rockauto.com :

http://67.129.153.73/CGv2Production/Pictures/Subaru%20J-Pegs%2F14774-AA101.jpg

 

Subaru part number: 14774AA101

[idosubaru]

I'm calling this one fixed - an intermittent egr solenoid.

awesome, thanks for the feedback.

 

this is why i removed the EGR on my last engine swap = fewer POF's.