running hotter (not extreme yet)

[brokebill]

few months back, car started running warmer than usual under even slight load increase.

 

it has always ran showing at about1/4 to 1/3 on the gauge and hardly ever drifted to 1/2 or above.

the car sees hard conditions. short trips, lots of hill up and down, and lots of curves.

 

the temperature is one thing that till now has remained constant and it really needs to be performing at its best for what it has to go through.

 

its not simply weather related cause it doesn't matter if its in the 60's or 90's, it pretty much acts the same.

 

when first started cold, it warms up good but seems to get a little warmer before the thermostat opens. then it dosent fall as low on the gauge after it opens(closer to 1/2 than 1/3 like it used to)

 

when under slight load, it drifts above 1/2 alot and when really climbing an incline it now gets to 3/4 when it used to see about 1/2.

 

it will still show as low as 1/3 under no load , coasting conditions.

 

thanks, Bill

[azsubaru]

Could be that you just need a thermostat, but it also could be the radiator is getting old and clogged.

[brokebill]

flushed it out and put in a new thermostat and seems to be back to its old self.(hope i dont jinx it)

 

set right on the 1/4 mark.

 

i'm used to thermostats failing a little more suddenly and totally.

never had 1 semi-fail for months.

 

thanks, Bill

[edrach]

Sign of an aging radiator is a steady increase in temp as your speed increases. The faster you go on the highway, the higher the temp guage will go.....time to think about a new radiator if that's the case. With a good radiator, the temp will stay rock solid at whatever the thermostat will settle on when it's warmed up. A flush helped (you have the data to prove it), but eventually the flush won't.

 

In any event, I hope you got an OEM thermostat.

[brokebill]

ran it almost 3 hrs straight last night, then off and on all day today.

 

temperature stayed on 1/4 the whole time.

also had a good hitachi day in which that 22 year old contraption mixed air and fuel like it was made to do .( you know how rare those days are)

 

still never had a thermostat that went bad for that long and was so consistent in its slight over heating. like it was constantly sticking in the same spot.

 

thanks, Bill

[DaveT]

I second the radiator, just to confirm.

 

Check the fine fins between the tubes. If they are loose, falling out or missing - it's new radiator time. Especially check where the electric fan shroud hides the fins.

[brokebill]

thanks, i'll keep a check on it.

 

i didnt use radiator flush or anything, i just shot a lot of water through everything from every direction.

 

but i will keep an eye on it cause i still question the thermostat failing in that manner.

 

thanks, Bill

[MorganM]

Don't mess around; even "running hot" is bad and a sign something is wrong if not broken.

 

Look at the radiator from inside the enginbay between the fan blades (not from the front through the grill; usually you only see the AC condenser then) Any fins missing? Are the fins rusted or turning green? When did you last replace the radiator cap? How about the thermostat? How many miles are on the water pump?

[McDave]

Don't mess around; even "running hot" is bad and a sign something is wrong if not broken.

 

Look at the radiator from inside the enginbay between the fan blades (not from the front through the grill; usually you only see the AC condenser then) Any fins missing? Are the fins rusted or turning green? When did you last replace the radiator cap? How about the thermostat? How many miles are on the water pump?

 

Psstt... read post #3.

[brokebill]

ok, it set rock solid for almost a month at 1/4 rarely even reaching 1/3.

 

the last couple days it sits on 1/3 and occasionally gets to 1/2 when going uphill or sitting in traffic.

 

i know thats not reason to panic, but its probably gonna start creeping back up a little at a time.

 

i did not use an OEM thermostat.

why exactly the need for OEM on this part?

 

i really dont want to have to invest in a new radiator if thats not what it is.

could a cap possibly be connected to this issue?

 

just hard to believe it could stay so solid for a month and then start the old pattern again.

 

thanks. Bill

[Subaru_dude]

?just hard to believe it could stay so solid for a month and then start the old pattern again.

 

thanks. Bill

 

It's a Subaru, they defy all logic.

 

Invest in a new radiator, new hoses, replace the hose from the carb to the thermostat housing, and might as well do the heater hoses too. It's well worth the cash, you'll have a rock solid cooling system for the next 100,000 or so. That's what I've always done with my EA82s and they've always ran nice and cool.

[brokebill]

what application do i have to look up to find a 2 row radiator that will drop right in? i know i saw it in an old thread but cant seem to find it now.

looks like advance and autozone both sell the single row for $100.

 

i hate to just throw money at it and still not have it fixed but since the slight overheating is so consistent it almost has to be a restriction issue.

i could not find any cold spots in/on the radiator and it looks to be in good shape but looks can be deceiving.

 

i just cant believe that a ? year old thermostat and a month old thermostat would stick in the same place and act the same way so...

 

but a new radiator(even the $100 one) and hoses, thermostat, antifreeze and add in TN tax(9.5%, high because we have no state tax) and it quickly becomes about $200 bucks so i just want to e sure i'm not throwing money away that could go toward the countless other issues the car has.

 

it responded well to just flushing it with water and changing the thermostat last time (mostly the flushing i think) so it does make sense its a restriction issue but i just want to make sure theres nothing i'm overlooking.

 

thanks, Bill

[brokebill]

It's a Subaru, they defy all logic.

 

 

yes, they do

[daeron]

If a radiator is uniformly approaching high temperature, then it is functioning.. or trying to. If you are in doubt and want to give it one last try, you can do all, or some, of the following; I like to spell it ALL out and let you decide how thorough you want to go. I have gone through the whole gamut of cooling system and headgasket replacement in my car short of heater core replacement; from T-stat thru water pump and headgasket job, replacing radiator along the way and flushing everything more than once, so don't think of this as an "all-or-nothing" set of procedures.

 

I would get a moderately priced radiator flushing solution, drain your coolant, replace with fresh water and solution, get her good and hot, drain it, pull the radiator, pull the thermostat, blast the rad out with a garden hose, and then proceed to blast the block out likewise.

 

While the radiator is out, may as well get some degreaser and thoroughly clean the coils.. spray them with concentrated simple green and let them soak for a while, then blast with high pressure water (don't go CRAZY or you can damage the fins) Hot water works best for this sort of application but the internal flushing doesn't really matter.

 

While you run the vehicle with the block flush, use the heater some to fill it with this coolant/flush solution, too. Then, remove the heater core hoses while everything else is out and flush that both ways with your garden hose, too.

 

Replace the thermostat, replace the radiator, remove any questionable hoses and replace with new ones, refill with fresh, clean water and run through a temp cycle as a "rinse" of sorts, drain, and refill with your standard coolant solution of choice.

 

If it still has problems, then you are either consuming coolant, (are you? if not then proceed to B or C) having a headgasket problem, or you need a new radiator or possibly water pump.

[brokebill]

drained and flushed with water,poured in the prestone flush, topped off with water, ran it, drained it, filled with water again, ran it, drained it,

 

then pulled the thermostat, used a hosepipe to flush the crap out of the block and radiator.

installed a new thermostat and bottom radiator hose(it needed it) put it back together and filled with water/coolant.

 

took it down the road and acted the same way.

 

not hot, just a little warmer than it was a few days ago on average but a lot more animated(sitting briefly in traffic or on even a slight incline the gauge will go from 1/3 to 1/2 lots)

 

when im just cruising down the road it pretty much sits solid on 1/3.

 

for the last month it would sit on 1/3 or even 1/4 and not budge except under extreme load and then would not even get to 1/2.

 

i just cant understand how it would straighten up perfectly and then .....

i know, its a subaru but..

 

radiator, water pump?

 

i hate to just throw money at it until something finally works.

 

surely these symptoms add up to something diagnosable.

 

thanks, Bill

[edrach]

Radiator is a heat exchanger; thermostat is just a temp controller. Once the thermostat is open, it's up to the radiator to maintain temp at whatever point thermostat is full open. If it creeps up slowly once the thermostat is open, the radiator is no longer capable of removing the heat the engine generates. The harder the engine works (i.e., the faster you go or the steeper the hill) and the higher the temp gets then.

 

To prove it, take out the thermostat and try it; if it overheats and you're not loosing coolant, the radiator is partially clogged and no longer capable of maintaining temp via the thermostat. Trust me, it's not the thermostat failing partially, it's the radiator.

 

No need to get a double row radiator unless you have a turbo which runs hotter than non aspirated. $100 is about right for a new radiator. Don't waste your money on a double row.

 

Certain things in Subarus work best if you use OEM parts. Thermostat and PCV are two good examples.

[Subaru_dude]

PM sent brokebill. Got a radiator for you if you want it.

[daeron]

what does the radiator feel like? uniformly hot? The way I see it (read: this is logic talking and not a hoard of limitless experience) if the whole radiator is hot, then it is all radiating heat and doing its job... if the water cannot shunt the heat out of the engine and into the radiator, then you will have a strange trickle-up heat issue.

 

I am picturing a stamped sheetmetal impeller on a cheap water pump that has corroded away here....

 

If you are talking about temperatures up to 1/2 then you aren't in a danger zone yet. How long has it been since the timing belts were done anyhow?

 

A water pump is usually less expensive than a radiator, and this creeping heat you have doesn't seem to smell like a radiator issue to me for some reason. Of course, it is alot simpler work to replace the radiator than the water pump.

 

It is a tough call.. did you get much crap out of the engine when you flushed it? (or did I just make you jump through a bunch of hoops for no apparent gain? if so sorry :-p)

[brokebill]

timing belts bout 6 months ago.

 

why is the water pump so hard to change?

 

on the water pump, how can you tell which one you have(short or long)?

didnt i see somewhere about being able to tell which one it is by the way the fan or pulley bolts to the water pump?

 

thanks, Bill

[brokebill]

ok, had the little test done for exhaust fumes in the radiator neck to ease my mind on the possibility of a head gasket issue.

test detected no exhaust fumes.

 

felt around on the radiator real good and noticed that the bottom 2 or 3 inches all the way across the radiator was not nearly as hot as the rest of the radiator.

 

sound like the problem?

any chance an air pocket could be causing this?

thanks, Bill

[brokebill]

timing belts bout 6 months ago.

 

why is the water pump so hard to change?

 

on the water pump, how can you tell which one you have(short or long)?

didnt i see somewhere about being able to tell which one it is by the way the fan or pulley bolts to the water pump?

 

thanks, Bill

 

 

appear to be at least 3 different lengths for water pump.

 

??????????????

even if i may not need it today, i might tomorrow so trying to get it figured out.

 

thanks, Bill

[daeron]

ok, had the little test done for exhaust fumes in the radiator neck to ease my mind on the possibility of a head gasket issue.

test detected no exhaust fumes.

 

felt around on the radiator real good and noticed that the bottom 2 or 3 inches all the way across the radiator was not nearly as hot as the rest of the radiator.

 

sound like the problem?

any chance an air pocket could be causing this?

thanks, Bill

I was playing devils' advocate saying that the pump is slightly more work; nothing more. I can't recall at the moment the determining factor in the pump height.. search for it using my name, I know I have asked, determined, and talked about it alot. go to advanced search, select older gen subforum only, enter my name, and click on "display as posts" and eventually you will find what your looking for. GD and gloyale have both posted extensively on it too.. many pthers have, but I can vouch for those off the top of my head.

 

BUT.. if you have found a problem spot on the radiator, then I wouldn't fuss so much about the water pump. I didn't put very much accent on it, but in my previous post i DID say "*if* the radiator is uniformly hot...." The fact that it isn't changes things; before, it was difficult to pin the issue on a radiator that checked out OK, so the water pump was looking more likely to be the culprit. Now you have discovered a large section of decreased circulation through the radiator; no telling how much of an overall impedance on coolant flow this is, in addition to the sheer loss of heat capacity of the radiator itself. Remember, its only about 14 inches tall (total guess, cant be more than 20) so 2-4 inches of height across the length of the core is a significant amount to lose.

 

 

 

Given the odd nature of the problem, I would like to think that there is probably some contribution from both the water pump and the rad.. but I would wager that replacing the radiator will fixx0r your problem. Hate to say it, but another block flush when you take the old radiator out would probably be wise, if you want to keep the peace of mind you earned by flushing it in the first place. No telling what may have slipped out of the rad and back into the system.. its your call though.

 

Good luck, and I hope I have helped, rather than simply lead you around by the nose :-p

[brokebill]

ordered an autozone radiator today so maybe get to put it in tomorrow evening.

 

may end up replacing water pump too for good measure.

 

what size is the heater hoses so i can get one of those water hose adapters to flush out the heater core good?

 

thanks for all the help.

 

Bill

[edrach]

ordered an autozone radiator today so maybe get to put it in tomorrow evening.

 

may end up replacing water pump too for good measure.

 

what size is the heater hoses so i can get one of those water hose adapters to flush out the heater core good?

 

thanks for all the help.

 

Bill

Bill, I think you'll find the radiator will solve your problem. I'm not sure the water pump will make it work better and you can always replace it later if you feel you need it. Water pump failures usually are more definite than the inability to cool at speed that you are seeing. However, as far as the water pump is concerned, they tend to last 120K or more. If you're close to the 100K mark, I would consider it if you like. But there's so little effort in removing the radiator later (which you'll need to do to get at the water pump), that I'd put it off until later. Don't fix what ain't broke is my motto. Best of luck with this.

 

Check your supplier on the adapter for flushing the cooling systems; I'm sure they'd have a stock hose available for you to determine the right size for the adapter.

[brokebill]

thanks,

finally got a visual/mental grasp on the water pump sizes.

i'll just look at mine when i pull the fan out for the radiator and should be able to tell.

 

not gonna replace it if it dont need it but just in case, how do you go about getting the replacement o ring for the pipe in the water pump?

not finding it listed anywhere, just the water pump mounting gasket.

 

thanks, Bill

 

(and the mileage on this car is unknown. was stopped at about 170k and may not have been working for years before i got it 3 or 4 years ago)