Need to change clutch..... pull engine or tranny

[lostinthe202]

'96 legOBW, 2.2L 5spd 178k

 

I need to do some clutch work and I've been doing some reading on old threads and I can't decide between pulling the tranny or pulling the engine.

 

Some info,

 

*I've recently (160k-ish) did the T-belt+pulleys+seals+WP job

*I don't have a lift or access to one, but I DO have an engine hoist

*originally a PA car so there is rust, not the worst, but enough to make me when doing a brake/rotor treatment recently.

 

So if I've got my info right I'm looking at:

 

Pulling engine -

 

A/C compressor disconnected from mount and hung out of the way,

Exhaust manifold unbolted (any part of it need removal?)

Various wiring disconnected

Coolant drained, and Rad disconnected and removed

Starter removed

Power steering pump removed and hung out of the way

 

Forgetting anything?

 

Pulling Tranny -

 

Starter removed

Front axles removed from tranny but left in hub (right? didn't I read a thread about that? Couldn't seem to find it again...)

drive shaft disconnected.

crazy jack action to wrassle with loose tranny.

 

Forgetting anything?

 

That about cover it?

 

Pulling the tranny does seem like less steps, but all of the rust is on the underside, the engine bay looks pretty good. I'm wondering if I actually wouldn't come out ahead going the engine route.

 

Thoughts? Opinions? Bring 'em on, and as always, Thanks!!!

 

:popcorn:

[edrach]

'96 legOBW, 2.2L 5spd 178k

 

I need to do some clutch work and I've been doing some reading on old threads and I can't decide between pulling the tranny or pulling the engine.

 

Some info,

 

*I've recently (160k-ish) did the T-belt+pulleys+seals+WP job

*I don't have a lift or access to one, but I DO have an engine hoist

*originally a PA car so there is rust, not the worst, but enough to make me when doing a brake/rotor treatment recently.

 

So if I've got my info right I'm looking at:

 

Pulling engine -

 

A/C compressor disconnected from mount and hung out of the way,

Exhaust manifold unbolted (any part of it need removal?)

Various wiring disconnected

Coolant drained, and Rad disconnected and removed

Starter removed

Power steering pump removed and hung out of the way

 

Forgetting anything?

 

Pulling Tranny -

 

Starter removed

Front axles removed from tranny but left in hub (right? didn't I read a thread about that? Couldn't seem to find it again...)

drive shaft disconnected.

crazy jack action to wrassle with loose tranny.

 

Forgetting anything?

 

That about cover it?

 

Pulling the tranny does seem like less steps, but all of the rust is on the underside, the engine bay looks pretty good. I'm wondering if I actually wouldn't come out ahead going the engine route.

 

Thoughts? Opinions? Bring 'em on, and as always, Thanks!!!

 

:popcorn:

I'm not the fastest mechanic in the world, but the first clutch I did on my '91 Legacy took 10 hours start to finish. Worst part was making love to the tranny from underneath trying to line it up and get it in.

I didn't have a very good transmission jack.

 

Some years later I had occasion to replace the engine on the same Legacy. I did have a hoist and it took me just over 4 hours to pull one and install the other. Doing the clutch with the engine out is easier than doing it from under the car.

 

You do the math and you'll know which way I'm doing the next clutch replacement.

[davebugs]

Engines are easy. BTW I leave the entire exhaust intact. After the engine is lifted it is much easier to get some tranny support in there.

 

Easier to redo the baffle plate. Easier to assess the flywheel.

 

I put new clips in (dealer item) except when they are out of stock. A couple dollar item that could possibly cause another removal later.

 

Dave

[FSRBIKER]

I would say with no lift pull the motor is easier, I can easily get mine out in about 90 minutes. I hate working on my back if I don't have to, also replace your plugs while the engine is out! Do your self a HUGE, HUGE favor and look into this product first: http://www.smart-service.com/store-tranquil-sleeve-kit.html

 

That site has a good description of the kit but I have seen it for under $115 for a non-turbo car elsewhere. I now will have to remove my engine to use this kit since my throw out bearing is squealing like a pig. I replaced the clutch 30,000 miles ago and if I only knew about this kit beforehand I would have spent the money without a doubt.

[idosubaru]

pull the engine, it is much easier. particularly for a one time job or a first timer. either way won't make much difference for a first time job anyway.

 

all things being equal (experience, rusted bolts, etc) pulling the trans is the fastest way, but probably not your first time, that will be a learning experience. without some serious motivation you'll be annoyed, depressed, and not wanting to do the work or be persistent. it's uncomfortable, lighting sucks, room sucks...it just sucks. but all things being equal there's no way anyone can pull an engine faster than a transmission.

 

you won't avoid rusted bolts necessarily by doing the engine - one of my worst experiences was pulling an EJ25. rust wasn't even that bad but multiple exhaust studs didn't want to come out, sheared off...it was all the way around.

[lostinthe202]

Thanks for the replies everyone,

 

davebugs -

 

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you leave the exhaust intact, it has to get disconnected someplace to come out of the car right?

 

fsrbiker -

 

Thanks for the link on that kit. So from the description it's basically a sleeve that goes over the shaft, then an oversized TO bearing to fit the sleeve? Is the bearing by a reputable maker? Is there anything special about the sleeve, like is it Stainless or have some features like grooves or whatever that would make it hard to make?

 

Anyone else have input on this?

 

Ggary-

 

you have a good point on the rust, that really can be encountered in both places. I've had enough fun with rusted exhausts to know about that, but I still figured I would encounter less going the engine route and while it's not my first transmission, it is my first subie trans, so there def. would be a learning curve with the front axles to slow things down.

 

OK, so engine it is. So in addition to replacing,

 

TO bearing (and clips from dealer)

Clutch disc + PP

Pilot Bearing

 

I thought of replacing the clutch fork as it's the reason I'm going doing this job. My clutch doesn't slip, but there is so much friction in the pedal that it makes bad noises and sensations, enough that it makes my wife's foot cramp if she drives too much. I've tried lubing it and it helps for maybe a few days but it always comes back and I just can't take it anymore.

 

I've read some posts about the flywheels being light to begin with on the EJ cars so turning is not advisable, any input on that?

 

And lastly, recommendations on clutch kits?

 

Thanks!!

 

Will-

[FSRBIKER]

I had my flywheel turned ever so slightly when i had the engine out.

 

This kit is used by Subaru dealers so yes it's reputable, probably not worth the effort to make the sleeve IMO and then source a correct fitting TO bearing. Yes it's a sleeve and oversize TO bearing. I just wish I knew about the kit before I replaced my clutch setup. Talking with a service dept about the whining the manager i spoke with said they will recommend to anyone getting a clutch replaced and if the trans has over 150,000 miles that the owner use the kit. For me it's a no brainer now and in the future if I buy another Subaru with high mileage.

[edrach]

If Smart Service sells this kit it is definitely reputable. Smart NEVER does anything less than perfect.

[lostinthe202]

Thanks for the tip FSR, last thing I want to do is have a TO that needs replacing after just a few K miles.

[stumpy]

I did a clutch job on a 95 Brighton.

Had cherry picker and no hoist so I pulled the engine.

Didn't pick it all the way out. Just undid what was necessary to move it forward far enough to get to the clutch set up.

Radiator had to come out.

Had a second fly wheel already turned and just swapped it out. Used a OEM clutch kit.

6 hours start to finish.

[davebugs]

On the exhaust. The exhaust will need unbolted from the heads. But I leave that Y pipe connected to the rest of the exhaust. I only disconnect it at the engine(heads). When the engine is lifted a bit there will be more room to move it out of the way to put a support under the tranny.

 

Depending on the year 2 0r 3 bolts on each head. Take your time with these - heat is best.

 

Dave

[FSRBIKER]

PB Blaster on the exhaust bolts helps. I wish I had that tip on the throw out bearing kit before I did mine, now I know better. Yea you really don't need to take the engine out of the engine bay, with the radiator out just move the engine forward and swap everything out.

 

If you haven't changed the plugs in awhile do it now as well.

[lostinthe202]

Weeeellll, I'll probably leave the plugs alone. I put in the almost elcheapo plugs and wires about 20-30k ago and I don't remember it being a problem at all, pretty easy to do in fact. This was before I found this board and read the accounts of troubles with non-oem wires and plugs. but I haven't had any trouble with them so I'll wait a bit as I'm already putting out a bunch of cash I can't really afford for the clutch components and now more for this sleeve kit which seems like a good idea considering the age of my tranny (179k today).

 

As the saying goes, "if it ain't broke..."

[edrach]

I'm already putting out a bunch of cash I can't really afford for the clutch components and now more for this sleeve kit which seems like a good idea considering the age of my tranny (179k today).

 

As the saying goes, "if it ain't broke..."

Another tip for your aging tranny. I had a '91 Legacy wagon which I bought with 93K miles on it which had a slight crunch going into 2nd. I changed the gearoil at that time with Redline 75W-90NS; after 5K of use the crunch when away. At 195K, I changed the gearoil again (a little past the 30K interval:eek: ) and used Lucas 75W-90 gearoil; the crunch came back big time in almost all shifting. Three thousand miles later, I drained the Lucas gear oil and put in the Redline 75W-90NS gearoil. No more shifting difficulties. Sold the car to a friend at 200K. Transmission is still working fine at 210K.

[FSRBIKER]

I need to change my trans gear oil and i am heading to the auto parts store at lunch...anyone know the capacity of the 5 speed in 1997?

[lostinthe202]

Another tip for your aging tranny. I had a '91 Legacy wagon which I bought with 93K miles on it which had a slight crunch going into 2nd. I changed the gearoil at that time with Redline 75W-90NS; after 5K of use the crunch when away. At 195K, I changed the gearoil again (a little past the 30K interval:eek: ) and used Lucas 75W-90 gearoil; the crunch came back big time in almost all shifting. Three thousand miles later, I drained the Lucas gear oil and put in the Redline 75W-90NS gearoil. No more shifting difficulties. Sold the car to a friend at 200K. Transmission is still working fine at 210K.

 

 

Yeah, I was considering trying this stuff out. My tranny shifts pretty well, and I think it shifts as well as it did when I got the car at 120K, but I feel like there is a bit of a crunch going into 2nd and 3rd that has always been there but is maybe is starting to get more pronounced. I recently changed it with 80w90 with no change for better or worse. I was going to get this stuff but none of the local auto places stock it even though redline's website says they do (autozone and advanced auto) so guess I'll get it online.

 

FSR -

 

I can't remember how much I put in, but I know that I bought 5 quarts figuring it wouldn't be more then that and when I drained it, I decided that it looked like about 4 quarts, so I added just under 4 quarts and did the "add 'n check" thing until it was full. I gotta give major props to Subie for having a dipstick instead of the stupid hole on the side. just get one of those extendo-funnels when you get your gear oil and no mess!

[frag]

Weeeellll, I'll probably leave the plugs alone. I put in the almost elcheapo plugs and wires about 20-30k ago and I don't remember it being a problem at all, pretty easy to do in fact. This was before I found this board and read the accounts of troubles with non-oem wires and plugs. but I haven't had any trouble with them so I'll wait a bit as I'm already putting out a bunch of cash I can't really afford for the clutch components and now more for this sleeve kit which seems like a good idea considering the age of my tranny (179k today).

 

As the saying goes, "if it ain't broke..."[/quote]

 

I'm a little sceptic about that sleeve kit, considering the price.

Should'nt one check to see if he realy needs it before buying ?

What would be the symptoms to look for when the trans and engine have been separated? Excessive play between the trow out bearing and «Quill» ? I suppose this is the trans shaft on which the TOB slides.

I replaced the clutch on my Brighton last summer (around 160 K miles) and have absolutely no clutch problem, no noise, no chatter, just smooth engagement.

I'm open to learning new things, but 100$ + is enough for one to be certain he needs it.

[lostinthe202]

 

I'm a little sceptic about that sleeve kit, considering the price.

Should'nt one check to see if he realy needs it before buying ?

 

Hmm... that's a good reality check.

 

This car is my DD and I don't want it in pieces while I hunt down parts so I am willing to go a bit extra to do it right, but at the same time I agree that $100+ is a bit much (especially on my budget, yikes!) for something that may or may not be necessary. I suppose what I will do is purchase the kit and a regular TO bearing, then when I get in there, I'll check out the quill/shaft and see how it looks and depending on what I see, I'll return whatever I don't use.

 

What would be the symptoms to look for when the trans and engine have been separated? Excessive play between the trow out bearing and «Quill» ? I suppose this is the trans shaft on which the TOB slides.

 

The website says "notorious grooving of the quill". I'm not sure if they are referring to helical wear along the travel of the TO bearing or a groove getting worn where the TO bearing spends most of its time. Either way I expect it to be pretty obvious. If I don't see anything after 179k miles, I wouldn't expect anything new to appear unless I changed my driving style.

 

I do know my clutch chatters if I'm not careful with my engagement, but whether it's this shaft or the Flywheel, I can't say.

[smurfmiata93]

Just finished replacing the clutch on my '99 a month ago. I went the transmission removal route. I have a small transmission jack from Horrible Freight that worked quite well for me. The two biggest headaches for me were the exhaust - snapped off two studs while trying to remove them for replacement and seperating the trans from the engine - spray the alignment pins with WD-40 well in advance. I split the exhaust at the connection just in front of the rear muffler section before i realized that the whole exhaust can be simply dropped as a unit. Having a compressor and an impact wrench were a definite plus.

 

With the trans out I removed the flywheel and had it re-surfaced. I also replaced the rear main crankshaft seal.

[FSRBIKER]

I'm wondering if anyone has a spec on the "Quill" if you don't notice any significant grooving. I know it's $100 but it's cheap insurance IMO when you factor in your time to do the job twice....like I now have to do

[idosubaru]

spray the alignment pins with WD-40 well in advance.

probably some of the best advice to note. i'd add to it that PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench, and Deep Creep are actual penetrants that are far better than WD40. spray down the day before anything you think you need to remove that looks rusty - exhaust bolts, trans bolts, etc. heat is your friend too when you go to remove rusty nuts.

[Gloyale]

I'm wondering if anyone has a spec on the "Quill" if you don't notice any significant grooving. I know it's $100 but it's cheap insurance IMO when you factor in your time to do the job twice....like I now have to do

 

It's really not needed in 99% of cases. Subaru doesn't even make or use them. It's an aftermarket item that is pushed on people.

 

Likely you're TO bearing squealing is not related unless there was some serious damage to the "quill"

 

Are you sure it's the TO? Does it squel in neutral at idle? If so I have found that a spring to pull back the clutch fork ussually ewliminates the noise. The fork even has a convenient pin hole in the top to mount the spring. Clip other end to the dogbone bracket.

 

Could also be the Front Main Shaft bearing in the trans case. Was there any gear oil leaking fromt the front of trans??

[FSRBIKER]

Gloyale the Subaru dealership I called did in fact use the kit. Yes the TO does squeal at idle, that's probably what pisses me off the most since I can then hear it easily. I checked yesterday on the fork and there is no hole for a spring and what dog bone bracket? Do you have a picture?

 

I am going to change the clutch fluid and of course bleed the slave cylinder, not sure this will help but it needs to be done anyway.

[lostinthe202]

I checked yesterday on the fork and there is no hole for a spring and what dog bone bracket? Do you have a picture?

 

I am going to change the clutch fluid and of course bleed the slave cylinder, not sure this will help but it needs to be done anyway.

 

He's probably talking about subies with a cable clutch which have a different clutch fork then the hydro setup. But easy to test. try pulling on the fork in the opposite direction the cable would pulling while the engineis running in N, eh?

[Gloyale]

Gloyale the Subaru dealership I called did in fact use the kit.

Then they are using an aftermarket kit. Something more and more dealer service deptartments are doing. It really isn't needed unless there is REALLY bad wear on the *quill*. A rarity. Certainly worth at least inspecting before spending an extra $100 bucks.

 

Yes the TO does squeal at idle, that's probably what pisses me off the most since I can then hear it easily. I checked yesterday on the fork and there is no hole for a spring and what dog bone bracket? Do you have a picture?

 

Sorry, I was thinking of cable actuated clutch. Still you should be able to attach a *pull off* spring somewhere. Just something to keep the TO from rideing on the clutch fingers when clutch is in the released state.

 

The dogbone is the bar that bolts between the firewall and the top front of trans, dead center of vehicle kinduv beside the starter. Look at the shape of it and you will see why it's called a "dogbone"