HHO Generators and Subarus Possibilities

[johnnyispy]

Hello All,

 

I have invested in a kit on how to build a HHO Generator for My Car.

 

I drive over 40,000 50,000 K a year and the fuel bill is climbing!

 

I am posting private pages for members of USMB to download a complete PDF

 

and Videos on Assembling the Mechanism on your Car.

 

I am looking for any feedback on the best way to Make this work on my 2.2L 1998 Subaru Legacy Wagon - AWD and Standard Transmission - of course.

 

Here is the link to the PDF - Videos !

http://mybanffphotographer.com/node/544

http://mybanffphotographer.com/node/543/play - Click on the download link to best view the Video

Many Thanks,

 

Johnny

[jamal]

hho is a scam and you will never see a net gain.

[McDave]

hho is a scam and you will never see a net gain.

+1,000,000

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=88082

[idosubaru]

convert to FWD manual trans and run studded snows in the winter.

[Reveeen]

I drive over 40,000 50,000 K a year and the fuel bill is climbing!

 

Likewise here.................

 

I *think* you would be wiser to invest your time, money, and effort, into a Geo Metro (though they are absolute garbage) at 50+mpg you can live with the crap for the summer, and drive your "real car" in the winter. Last one I bought was mint (other than a burnt exhaust valve, a "regular" maintenance item) for $100.

[johnnyispy]

Currently I am using 6 ounces of Lucas Upper Cylinder Lube with every tank.

 

I keep the car at about 90-100k on the average and will see about 400k on the first half of the tank.

 

Really Like the AWD Drive in the mountains.

 

Here is a Link that shows how to build a HHO generator

 

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-build-a-hydrogen-

generator-167536/

A simple video of how to build a hydrogen generator for under 15$.

have also found many hho claims on you tube

[McDave]

I drive over 40,000 50,000 K a year and the fuel bill is climbing!

 

Likewise here.................

 

I *think* you would be wiser to invest your time, money, and effort, into a Geo Metro (though they are absolute garbage) at 50+mpg you can live with the crap for the summer, and drive your "real car" in the winter. Last one I bought was mint (other than a burnt exhaust valve, a "regular" maintenance item) for $100.

There was a story on National news a couple months ago about how popular the Geo Metro had become. They showed one on eBay that went for over $14k! Spending a dollar to save a dime...

[uniberp]

"HHO" is total snakeoil. Basic chemistry knowledge makes it obviously a scam.

 

Currently I am using 6 ounces of Lucas Upper Cylinder Lube with every tank.

 

I keep the car at about 90-100k on the average and will see about 400k on the first half of the tank.

 

Really Like the AWD Drive in the mountains.

 

Here is a Link that shows how to build a HHO generator

 

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-build-a-hydrogen-

generator-167536/

A simple video of how to build a hydrogen generator for under 15$.

have also found many hho claims on you tube

[outbackusjunkus]

I'm using HHO and am getting one billion mpg. With a few tweaks to the brown snake oil gas capacitor am hoping for 1.5 billion (fingers crossed) :heabng:

[desertsubaru]

I seen a guy Junk a real nice geo metro that looked like it was new. It sounded good and moved under its own power and he junked it for $400:eek:

[johnnyispy]

Well I should not complain - a lot of folks wish they got 750+ K from a 98 Legacy AWD wagon.

 

Here is another link to another fuel saving resource!

 

http://www.startsavingmegas.com/

 

Who would ever think HHO is a Scam with how many You Tube videos there are about it !

 

Has anyone has ever converted a Subaru to electric model here?

 

My Mechanic Says Subaru won't release a Hy-bred until 2010.

 

All I can do for is keep up with the 94 ethanol blend and keep up with the Lucas Product the Oil Stabilizer has really quiet the girl down

 

 

All The Best!

 

Jspy

[ferox]

Originally posted by johnnyispy

 

Who would ever think HHO is a Scam with how many You Tube videos there are about it !

 

Has anyone has ever converted a Subaru to electric model here?

 

My Mechanic Says Subaru won't release a Hy-bred until 2010.

 

All I can do for is keep up with the 94 ethanol blend and keep up with the Lucas Product the Oil Stabilizer has really quiet the girl down

 

I am not sure if this means you are giving up on the HHO, but if so, you should talk to Gravityman a little before abandoning the project. He's converting a 2.2 as well. McDave posted a link in the #3 post on this thread to his [Gravityman's] original thread on the subject. You might try sending Gravityman a brief private message.

[johnnyispy]

"HHO" is total snakeoil. Basic chemistry knowledge makes it obviously a scam.

 

 

Found This Site on YOU TUBE.

 

I am having a Fabricator Friend look into this for me.

He has heard of many engineers playing with this.

 

Looking at this site below if it does not work there must be a lot of suckers out there - I am a sucker for Subaru's for their reliability. I have owned 3 Loyales and now on to my first Legacy. I would by a new STI if i could justify the go.

 

 

http://ecohho.com/

[jamal]

Looking at this site below if it does not work there must be a lot of suckers out there -

 

 

http://ecohho.com/

 

Hey guess what you're one of them.

 

 

Here's a nice explanation why it won't work:

 

You can't run your car on half-water, half-gas. The amount of power you'd need to split enough water per hour to power the car would be phenominal. You'd probably have to tow around a trailer full of car batteries to do it.

 

Most of the home-make HHO kits create so little HHO as to be absolutely pointless, because creating enough to actually affect anything takes a ton of power.

 

Here are some calculations derived from an old post I had a couple of months ago regarding the Scorpion hybrid hydrogen-gasoline car:

 

Lets assume your STi can get 30 mpg under ideal conditions driving at 60 mph on the highway. That means that you use approximately 2 gallons of gas per hour. If the hydrogen kits could actually give you 50% mileage increases, they would need to reduce that to 1.33 gallons, or replace 0.67 gallons per hour of gasoline with hydrogen.

 

A gallon of gas weighs approximately 6 pounds, or 2.73 kg. We need to replace 0.67 gallons, so that's approximately 1.8kg of gas. Hydrogen has 2.73 times the energy density of gas, so we only need 0.66 kg of hydrogen gas to replace that gasoline. Now to the unfortunate part. It takes approximately 9 kg of water to create 1 kg of hydrogen gas, so we need to be able to break down about 6 kg of water per hour to meet our hydrogen needs. For those who don't think well in kg, that's 6 liters per hour.

 

Breaking down 1 kg of water per hour requires roughly 33kW-h of power. Since we need to break down 6 kg per hour, we'll need 198kW-h of power available. If we're getting our power from conventional 12V car batteries, that means we'll need to be continuously drawing 16,500 amps. Not sure what a typical car battery can supply continuously, but I doubt it's much more than 100 amps. So you'd need something on the order of 165 spare batteries in a trailer behind your car to keep the system running. And even then, it would only work for as long as your batteries last. And I'm guessing that towing around the 3000 or 4000 lbs of batteries would probably negate most of the fuel savings.

 

The home kits generally only draw something on the order of 10 amps from your car's electrical system. Assuming that they run at 12V, that gives you 120w-H to work with. That is enough to split 3.6g of water per hour (about 3/4 of a teaspoon). That would result in approximately 0.4g of hydrogen, which with its higher energy density, replaces approximately 1.1g of gasoline (roughly 1 teaspoon). So instead of using 1536 teaspoons of gas per hour (2 gallons), your STi would now use 1535 teaspoons, for a whopping mileage increase of 0.065%.

 

Water fuel conversion is a giant hoax. Always has been, always will be. There's no way to steal enough power from your engine's electrical system to create enough HHO to do anything meaningful in your engine. If you could buy pressurized hydrogen tanks, and either run the engine on pure hydrogen, or inject the hydrogen into the intake manifold, then it would be a great fuel source. But making it from water on-board is a losing proposition all-around.

 

if you really want to save money on gas drive less or trade-in for a corolla.

[McDave]

if you really want to save money on gas drive less or trade-in for a corolla.

 

When I bought my Subaru a couple months ago I got into a long discussion with the seller over HHO as he was one of these 'affiliates'. After I wore him down I asked him if he wanted to know how I actually doubled my gas mileage? Yes! I waived the papers to the car I just bought from him to replace my truck.

 

I've since cut the miles driven nearly in half too. It's like paying only $1.00 per gallon all over again!

[aircraft engineer]

Said it BEFORE and I'll say it again

 

ETHOS is PURE BS and essentially SO IS HHO - while a slight increase in fuel mileage can be expected from the increased humidity, aside from a way to directly introduce liquid water into the incoming airstream, WATER WON'T HELP THE ENGINE RUN MORE EFFICIENTLY (as currently designed)

 

Now to you SUCKERS who opt for this BEYOND SNAKE OIL WASTE OF MONEY - I only have this to say:

 

YOU MIGHT AS WELL GIVE THE MONEY TO CHARITY BECAUSE EITHER WAY IT'S GONE!! At least with a charity it MIGHT be doing some good

 

IF they are so good, where are their VERIFIED TESTS (not just mythical testimonials from unknown persons) Where's their proof of concept vehicle for the 10 MILLION DOLLAR prize competition (oh, yes, that one is VERY REAL - 100mpg car)? What's that old engineering statement about "perpetual motion" - "in god we trust, everyone else PROVIDES DATA!!"

 

The promoter is BLOWING SMOKE - nothing more.

 

<<DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY FOLKS - YES I'M VOCAL ABOUT PSEUDO-ENGINEERING BASED MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING SCAMS>> By the way - The "aircraft engineer" handle is VERY VERY real folks, not just "blowing smoke".

[mtsmiths]

It's really quite simple, you can't use energy from a closed system to increase the efficiency of that same system.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

 

You have to extract energy from your fuel source to produce the electrical energy to fracture the water to obtain the hydrogen and oxygen, the result will ALWAYS be negative. It can't be otherwise in this universe.

 

I'm no Aircraft Engineer, but I am an aircraft driver, so liste to the prios kiddies, not the hucksters.

 

I firmly believe that hydrogen is the ideal automobile fuel, because it is ENTIRELY non-polluting, but you can't make it on board. We need an entirely new infrastructure, including paving about 1/2 of AZ, NM and SoCA with solar cells to make non-polluting electricity to make the hydrogen to run the cars ... and BTW they won't be IC, they will be fuel cell electrics.

 

The sooner we start the better. Think wheel motors in each hub to create your AWD. Light, simple and entirely wheel-specific controllable. Oh, did I mention 100% torque from the minute you step on the 'gas'?

[johnnyispy]

Ok HHO does not work and there is enough Subaru experts here stating it does not.

 

But until we get smart and develop something better - We all know GM Killed the Electric Car that was on the road for 6 years - a Car that would reach speeds of 70 miles per hour and have a 300 mile radius on a charge.

 

Today I had to top up the car and do a 415 km round trip to the top of the world in my region. Even though the 98 Legacy with 305,000 k on it had 2/3rds a tank of gas I included 6 ox of Lucas Upper Cylinder Lube with the fill up.

 

The results are a trip traveling up to 7000 ft from 4000 ft, up and down steep mountain passes of speeds greater than 120 km at times the Legacy still toppled 425 k on half tank. Who knows what I would have gotten if I was good and stuck at 90K/ 55 miles per hour which is proven to be the best rate of speed for fuel consumption. My experience is that I generally get 30% better fuel economy 90km compared to 120km on the average.

 

Lucas Products so far have paid for cost their use in the first tank.

 

I can buy a gallon here for a little over 30 dollars.

 

Here are links to DVDS worth watch if you love you car like I do!

 

My Subaru is my right arm of my business.

 

 

http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com

 

http://www.oilcrashmovie.com/index2.html

 

 

Thanks for all the input!!!

 

 

Kind Regards,

 

Johnny

[aircraft engineer]

The "problem" with the electric car is the battery capacity and rate of recharge - little else. It's a matter of "power density" - how much can be put in and taken of a battery how fast and for how long (why lead/acid batteries are "rated" in amp-hours at a 20 hour rate). Hi-power density rechargeable batteries are almost exclusively metal-hydrides.

 

Anyway - electrics are also sort of impractical for longer trips when using "plug in power" only. (average urban usage would be 50 miles/day so it's PRACTICAL there) BUT - It's another of the complaints against the hybrid - can't plug it in and use no gasoline at all.

 

Sub is fielding a bunch of tiny battery electrics for urban use in a NYC "trial" - smaller than a "smart" car.

 

And speaking of hybrids - they get less mileage during the winter in cold climates. Why? Simple - the CABIN HEATING system is engine powered.

 

the issue with gas powered vehicles is to be able to extract more of the heat input into "work" output (work being moving a load thru a distance) Standard Otto cycle (spark ignition) and Diesel cycle (compression ignition) only approach 35% "efficiency" - the rest being put out as "waste heat". Find a way to increase that to 60% and become a BILLIONAIRE (to the chagrin of the oil producers)

 

oh - and the GM EV-1 electric wasn't 300 mile radius it was more like 75 to 130 miles total (300 mile radius would have been 600 mile total - 300 OUT - 300 BACK) 300km is closer, though for a total

[ferox]

To play devil's advocate...without verifiable data it is just as unscientific to say a process does not work as it is to say that it does work. It doesn't matter what you do for a living, it's the scientific method. Chuck H's theoretical narrative about energy densities completely ignores the physical chemistry of the system and assumes the deflagration characteristics of the hydrogen and gasoline mixture are simply additive. That has to be determined experimentally, and this is not basic chemistry.

 

Hydrogen injection in gasoline, spark ignited, engines is not a new concept. The Sloan Automotive Lab at MIT, Caltech, Oak Ridge National Lab, and many European labs have been working on this for quite a while, not to mention advanced proprietary labs that do not publish their data. You can check the SAE website or the specific institutional websites for more detailed references on their work. Their findings show a 20-30 percent increase in fuel economy. Additionally, the volume of published work on this subject has increased substantially over the past ten years indicating that the idea has not lost traction. Their systems are obviously not the same as these HHO kits, but the concept is sound and verifiable. And if you ask why every car doesn't have hydrogen injection it's because it's still experimental, and you would also have to ask why fuel efficiency has gone down since 1985. For whatever reason(s) fuel efficiency technology has not been exploited to it's fullest extent and a lack of implementation in the marketplace does not mean a particular technology doesn't work.

 

The misleading part about the HHO kits is that they are marketed as plug and play...a couple of hours and you're good to go. Trying to install these systems in an engine that was not designed for it would be problematic at best, and would realistically need a custom ECU and delivery control system to do it right. The concept isn't snake oil...the kits are.

 

Gravityman has the right idea about bench testing his system. It is disappointing to see so much ridicule leveled at the people that have brought up this subject on the forum. They at least are trying to produce some data. It may be garage science, but it is more scientific than calling people names and saying it won't work based on unverified assumptions and incomplete theory.

 

It seems that the people attempting these conversions are using the 2.2, which presents an opportunity, albeit garage-science, for independent verification and repeatability. However improbable their success may be, it would be more scientific and more in-line with the experimental spirit of this forum to help them with their experimental design than to chastise and mock them.

 

I don't have the money to order the academic publications that contain the processed data from the aforementioned labs, but they are reputable sources, so I rely on their abstracts. I'm not picking a fight, and I am not trying to be a d*ck. I haven't built this system, so I don't know how it performs. No one does until they do it. I think it is highly unlikely that these kits will work very well as an aftermarket mod, but the people taking on this challenge deserve more respect for their efforts.

[lostinthe202]

... It is disappointing to see so much ridicule leveled at the people that have brought up this subject on the forum. They at least are trying to produce some data. It may be garage science, but it is more scientific than calling people names and saying it won't work based on unverified assumptions and incomplete theory.

 

 

:clap:

 

There is in every madman a misunderstood genius whose idea, shining in his head, frightened people, and for whom delirium was the only solution to the strangulation that life had prepared for him.

 

-Antonin Artaud

 

I'm not for or against. But I have no problem with people trying to find out. It's one thing to caution them about possibly wasting their money, it's another to call them a fool for taking a chance.

[Reveeen]

I'll *think* maybe I'll go with the 10 hp Metro.

 

http://www.utterpower.com/10hp_chevy.htm

[lostinthe202]

I'll *think* maybe I'll go with the 10 hp Metro.

 

http://www.utterpower.com/10hp_chevy.htm

 

 

Holy crap that is awesome!!!!

[johnnyispy]

I'll *think* maybe I'll go with the 10 hp Metro.

 

http://www.utterpower.com/10hp_chevy.htm

 

 

Hello Captain,

 

This link is not working.

 

I have private messaged Gravityman he has been very busy to reply to these post, however he has personally witnessed that custom HHO devices that are designed to produce larger amounts of HHO do work. Websites like "half water half gas" show generators that you can build with very little investment. As we all agree here you get what you pay for. This is why we all love Subarus here! There great machines that totally master cornering!

 

 

I took this a 60km corner yesterday at 100km - of course the sign was probably posted for winter conditions!

 

I am restoring and upgraded my Legacy - I have upgraded the 14" rims to wider 16", as well thrown on new outback struts.

 

Also replacing the back hatch - the current one is blistering bad.

 

Have new fenders that will install soon as well - plus other minor body work before - including custom side skirts front, rear bumper - the new paint job. Before the remaining body work that is mentioned mechanical improvements for performance and full economy will be optimized as much as possible!

 

I am currently sourcing out wind dams to prevent under body wind drag as I understand this can be as much as a 10% performance improvement. And if I can find a Custom Cold Air Ram if I am unable to budget out and find someone to help with a HHO device that is not design for cool science fair experiments

 

I love the 2.2 Legacy it was a great move up from my 93 Loyale - the cargo area is huge and for a mid-size the fuel economy is ideal for a mobile business like mine.

 

This YOUTUBE member has four interesting videos....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssOX4QJvIPg

 

 

 

All The Best!

 

Jspy

[Olnick]

When this thread first appeared it made me very uneasy. I found myself wishing it would just dry up and blow away.

 

Although I feel I am an open minded person, I deplore snake oil and I absolutely detest snake oil salesmen. To the degree that my mind was made up . . . and closed!

 

Then someone comes along and blows me away. Thanks ferox for a beautifully written presentation. Thanks for re-opening my mind.

 

By the way, I'm a firm believer in garage science. It's what made this country great. Henry Ford started with garage science and (if I remember my automotive lgends correctly) had to knock part of the garage wall down to get his first motorcar out to the street!

 

Thanks too to lostinthe202 for defending openmindedness. And to Reveen for the wonderful "10hp Geo Metro!"

 

Who knows, it could very well be a Subaru lover who makes "the next big breakthrough." Maybe even a USMB member!

 

Aloha all.