EA82 SPFI: TPS ISSUES??? PROBLEM SOLVED!! -UPDATE last page-

[3eyedwagon]

Hey all,

 

I just got an 11 of 1988 GL Wagon

 

It has the EA82 with SPFI, and a D/R trans.

 

The car runs EXTREMELY rich, and before Jeff helped me tinker with it; it would not idle, or even run below 3,000 RPM. Also, getting the motor to rev to 3,000 was quite a chore, and even then it wasn't making power.

 

Jeff (One Eye) was kind enough to loan me a MAF sensor off of his Touring wagon. We installed the borrowed MAF, and played with a few sensors. We were then at least able to limp it to his place, and trouble shoot some more. The car ran RICH the entire trip. I cannot emphasize how rich the car ran.

 

I am not certain if the MAF sensor helped, or if it was the fact that the car had time to sit while Jeff, and I installed it.

Jeff is leaning towards the Thermo Temp Sensor in the intake manifold (two wire pigtail, with a valve cover blue/green plug), as that was a problem that produced very similar results for him in the past.

 

I have no idea what to check, and that sensor is kinda pricey for a replace, and see kind of move.

 

With the sensor unplugged, the car will not start under a "warm" condition. With the sensor plugged in, and the throttle WIDE OPEN; the car will slowly chug to a start. However, leaving the sensor plugged in will result in the car running poorly. Just want to verify with some other experiences that is my problem before I plop the coin for the thing. Also, Jeff said that the one for his MPFI setup was around $20. The cheapest I could find for this SPFI one was $62 at Schmucks. Anyone know how much of an actual difference we are looking at between these two? Just for giggles.

 

I'll get to the point, for the skimmers in the crowd, :-p

 

The only code flashing under the dash is:

 

5

 

 

 

Just wanted to add a big THANKS JEFF for all your help this weekend.

 

The guy found me a car (!A STEAL!), helped me negotiate a price, then helps me work on it today.... on his Sunday (even if it was Pocono) .

 

What a guy.

[GeneralDisorder]

5 is not a code - it's a model designation.

 

You need to run a complete D-Check on it - maybe you'll get codes. The SPFI is not always capable of telling you every detail so you may have to help it out a bit and do all the little stuff.

 

Just pickup a used thermosensor from a yard. You can test them with an ohmeter and some boiling water.

 

GD

[3eyedwagon]

5 is not a code - it's a model designation.

 

You need to run a complete D-Check on it - maybe you'll get codes. The SPFI is not always capable of telling you every detail so you may have to help it out a bit and do all the little stuff.

 

Just pickup a used thermosensor from a yard. You can test them with an ohmeter and some boiling water.

 

GD

 

So I take it 5 is a model designation of sorts to describe what engine/fuel system is being dealt with? Just wondering for my own education.

 

What's the standard way of running a full diagnostic check for this era of Subarus? Do I need an OBD1 scanner of some sort? Or is there a diagnostic arc port like on some other OBD1 systems? Just wondering what my best route to go here is...

 

Would you happen to know the range I'd be looking at for a good sensor?

 

Thanks for the help GD.

[Cougar]

If there were other codes stored you would have seen them. All you do is count the flashes and if there there are multiple codes you would have seen them.

 

The coolant sensor is a common source of trouble for this kind of problem you described. I think the resistance of the sensor should be around 50 ohms when the engine is at normal operating temp but I am not exactly sure. One thing you can do to see if it is working is to check the resistance when it is cold and then when it is hot. You should see a big change in resistance. The cold resistance reading may be about 2,500 ohms.

[McDave]

Coolant sensor specs:

14 degrees F - 7k - 11.5k ohms

68 degrees F - 2k - 3k ohms

122 degrees F - 700 - 1,000 ohms

[3eyedwagon]

Just tested the Thermo Temp Sensor

 

With the vehicle cool (sat overnight); the sensor measured around 1,400-1,500 Ohms. It was probably around 70 degrees, or slightly more. So, that seems to measure up to McDave's chart.

 

I then ran the vehicle up to operating temp, checking the sensor periodically. It dropped fairly steadily until I stopped testing. I let the temp gauge reach a good 3/4 and measured.

With the vehicle at high operating temperature; the sensor fluctuated in the 300 Ohm range.

 

 

This seems to point to me that this may not be the problem. I'm not sure how "set in stone" those numbers on McDaves chart are, but everything seems to line up to me. Tell me what you guys think.

 

Also, the car seems to be building alot of heat in the catalytic converter. I would suspect the rich running condition may be to blame for that. However, the cat is heating up enough to cook some of the accumulated oils of its heat shield at high operating temperature. The exhaust however does have good flow, and isn't spitting little chunks of crap out on the ground. I think the cat is still intact.

[McDave]

I would say the coolant sensor is good.

 

Pull the vacuum hose off the fuel pressure regulator and check for gas inside the hose. Then start the car and make sure vacuum is getting to the fpr. If you find gas in the hose replace the fpr.

[3eyedwagon]

I would say the coolant sensor is good.

 

Pull the vacuum hose off the fuel pressure regulator and check for gas inside the hose. Then start the car and make sure vacuum is getting to the fpr. If you find gas in the hose replace the fpr.

 

 

EDIT

 

 

OK, I'll go check that.

 

Another question I had;

 

There is a solenoid located slightly to the rear of the temps sensor.

EDIT It is actually located directly behind the thermostat housing. It has 2 vaccuum lines, and a double wired pigtail with a black plug. EDIT

This solenoid has been making a strange noise since I first started the car. With or without the engine running, it makes a clicking/popping sound. It does so every second, like clock work. With the key on, and engine not running; it is very easy to hear. This is met with a hum (very similar to a fuel pump hum) from what I believe is under the dash.

EDIT This solenoid is currently unplugged, I left it that way, as it seemed to help in my attempt to get the car home yesterday. EDIT

 

Jeff found the name of the solenoid in the book yesterday, but I forgot its' correct name. I do believe it had something to do with the cold start setup.

 

[McDave]

EDIT

 

 

OK, I'll go check that.

 

Another question I had;

 

There is a solenoid located slightly to the rear of the temps sensor.

EDIT It is actually located directly behind the thermostat housing. It has 2 vaccuum lines, and a double wired pigtail with a black plug. EDIT

This solenoid has been making a strange noise since I first started the car. With or without the engine running, it makes a clicking/popping sound. It does so every second, like clock work. With the key on, and engine not running; it is very easy to hear. This is met with a hum (very similar to a fuel pump hum) from what I believe is under the dash.

EDIT This solenoid is currently unplugged, I left it that way, as it seemed to help in my attempt to get the car home yesterday. EDIT

 

Jeff found the name of the solenoid in the book yesterday, but I forgot its' correct name. I do believe it had something to do with the cold start setup.

 

It sounds like your green test connectors were left connected and it's pulsing the sensors and fuel pump for testing purposes. Disconnect the connectors.

[3eyedwagon]

It sounds like your green test connectors were left connected and it's pulsing the sensors and fuel pump for testing purposes. Disconnect the connectors.

 

Are the test connectors you speak of a bright "Lifesaver" kind of green, and located close to the driver's side fire wall, next to the fuel filter?

 

If so, the single wire test connector was indeed left plugged together.

 

I plugged everything else back together, and unplugged that single wired bright green connector: It started right up. I tried it multiple times, and it continues to start without problem.

 

The engine still lags slightly from 2,000 to 3,000 rpm, but that could easily be contributed to the 275,000 on the clock.....

 

I'll take it for a spin, see how it acts, and let you know.

[McDave]

Are the test connectors you speak of a bright "Lifesaver" kind of green, and located close to the driver's side fire wall, next to the fuel filter?

 

If so, the single wire test connector was indeed left plugged together.

 

I plugged everything else back together, and unplugged that single wired bright green connector: It started right up. I tried it multiple times, and it continues to start without problem.

 

The engine still lags slightly from 2,000 to 3,000 rpm, but that could easily be contributed to the 275,000 on the clock.....

 

I'll take it for a spin, see how it acts, and let you know.

Yep, that's them. Disconnect all those connectors, including the white ones.

[r_kirky]

Just EJ it, that way when you figure out the wiring you can come help me with mine.

 

Congrats on the new wagon.

[one eye]

Wow I was way off. Good to know that there are people who know what they are doing on here, it's a lifesaver.

 

P.S. I hate pocono if it was bristol you would have been on your own Will! Go Dave Blaney!!!

 

Jeff

[one eye]

We need a pic Will!!

 

Jeff

[3eyedwagon]

Well, thanks everyone! It is running pretty well. It lacks a little power in the 2,000-4,000 rpm range, it pops/sputters on occassion under initial WOT, and that hot smokey smell seems to continue, but all, and all; I think it will work just fine for what I intend to do to it.

 

I have removed the thermostat in an attempt to cool it down, and have wired the fan to a good 12v ignition power source. I really want this car to run cool. Nothing annoys me more than keeping an eye on the temp gauge.

 

I think it needs to be timed, and tinkered with. But overall, it is in fair operating condition.

 

 

We need a pic Will!!

 

Jeff

 

I think I'm going to wait on the picture.

 

I'll take a couple now for the before, and after shot.

 

I'll post them all up once it has been properly chopped up for larger tires.

[3eyedwagon]

Figured no point in starting a new thread....

Maybe some of you EA82 gurus can help me out on getting a little more power out of this mean machine....

 

As before -89 EA82 SPFI-

 

+*Thanks to McDave for helping me find the incredibly simple fix of unpluggin the test connectors*+ I'm still chuckling about that...

 

This car will be mostly for wheeling, and thusly I am looking to get it into to solid running condition.

 

I am honestly concerned about the motors ability to turn any kind of over sized tire. I guess maybe I'm a little used to my EA81 with a Weber, but this thing seems SUPER doggy.

 

I intend to replace the plugs, I figure it'll need to be done after running incredibly rich for lord knows how long. It also needs to be timed.

 

But, above that; I am looking for simple tricks to improve performance, and get every bit I can out of the engine. I've already started removing every last thing I can from around the engine to hopefully improve air flow. Now I am wondering what can be removed from the engine in favor of weight savings ("Worry about the ounces, and the pounds will come"), and what all is on there that just plain isn't needed.

 

Can I remove things like the charcoal canister?

 

Will removing/empyting the catalytic converter result in problems?

 

What else can be done above, and beyond a good tune?

 

As usual; any, and all help is much appreciated!

 

[GeneralDisorder]

I am honestly concerned about the motors ability to turn any kind of over sized tire. I guess maybe I'm a little used to my EA81 with a Weber, but this thing seems SUPER doggy.

 

The EA82 SPFI makes fully 17 more HP than the EA81. Weber or not. My Brat with an EA82 w/SPFI from a 93 Loyale is actually nicely quick.

 

The weight difference of the EA82 body is what will/is kill you. That and the horrible approach/departure angles. If you want to do any serious off-roading you need the EA81 hatch body. For weight, A/D angles, and wheelbase.

 

But, above that; I am looking for simple tricks to improve performance, and get every bit I can out of the engine. I've already started removing every last thing I can from around the engine to hopefully improve air flow. Now I am wondering what can be removed from the engine in favor of weight savings ("Worry about the ounces, and the pounds will come"), and what all is on there that just plain isn't needed.

 

There is little of consequence that can be removed for much weight savings. Sadly the weight is in the unibody and the glass. There is very little you can do to the engine to make more power. It's already as high compression as you can get with the head quench design and redlines at 6k. To get any real amount of power you need more fuel and more air. Start with the cams, heads, and valves - that will get you air. More fuel can be accomplished a variety of ways. You'll need to run MegaSquirt or some other stand-alone FI package to deal with the modifications.

 

Can I remove things like the charcoal canister?

 

It buys you nothing but a smelly engine bay.... but yes if you cap the lines you can remove it.

 

Will removing/empyting the catalytic converter result in problems?

 

No. I usually get rid of them. More trouble than they are worth on the older soobs. Your emissions will go up sharply of course.

 

What else can be done above, and beyond a good tune?

 

NOS, Turbo, etc. Sky's the limit till you blow the heads off. Most of that stuff requires a lot of skill and knowledge to do correctly and get even 1/2 the normal life span from the thing though. Expect to run through a couple short blocks at least if you go whole-hog. Beyond forced induction or oxidizers you are pretty well stuck with 90 HP I'm afraid - unless you want to design new heads for it.... but I'm thinking probably not.

 

GD

[Scott in Bellingham]

If you want to do any serious off-roading you need the EA81 hatch body. For weight, A/D angles, and wheelbase.

 

 

 

 

GD

 

wrong,

 

I'll go up against any hatch with my wagon anyday

 

heres my old lightened EA82 that went awesome,

 

 

 

 

 

your tire size will kill your gearing , thus your usable power with the EA82 engine dont go to big ( like Jeff), also ditch most all the extra gear and heavy roof racks and bumpers and winch people seem to like to add on , also run 1/4-1/2 tank Gas to reduce wieght all that extra weight is a killer on hill climbs, and when you cant make it all the extra people jump out of the car

[GeneralDisorder]

wrong,

 

I'll go up against any hatch with my wagon anyday

 

heres my old lightened EA82 that went awesome

 

That is not streetable except in a very few places around the country. The local constabulary would have a field day with a rig like that. I agree it's capable but most of us don't have the ability to trailer our machine to/from the play.

 

You can make anything with enough welding and cutting.... but for *mostly* stock bodies the EA81 hatch is king.

 

GD

[3eyedwagon]

but for *mostly* stock bodies the EA81 hatch is king.

 

GD

 

Couldn't agree more. This third gen only comes as a form of amusement while I find better things. :-p

 

AND as soon as I find the right hatch, that is what I fully intend to build.

I just can't bring myself to cut up a pretty little hatch to go wheeling in, and there seems to be very little middle ground in the hatch market. Either they are super nice (like the one I have), or they are rusted to the point where they are beyond even attempting.

SO, for now my EA81 wagon will have to do for the 2nd gen toys. I'd still gladly take its abilities vs. problems over the power output of this SPFI motor coupled with the heftyness of the too large 3rd gen body. I've already unbolted enough wasted steel to make at least the quarters for a good hatch back!

 

Anyways,

 

The whole point of this car is a cheap wheeler that I won't feel a bit bad about creasing the quarters in on. Therefor, I don't see much point in an EJ swap, or extensive engine upgrades. Especially considering the fact that I don't have any idea how long this car may even last.

 

So, I'm just looking for the simplest upgrades possible. Preferably free. I don't care if it makes 1/2 of a horse, I'm game. Anything helps right?

 

As usual, thanks for any info GD.

[3eyedwagon]

wrong,

 

I'll go up against any hatch with my wagon anyday

 

 

You are comparing apples, and hand grenades.

 

Pull that EJ

Put that FI motor back in, and then say that.

 

Also, GD makes a good point.

 

I don't want to have to cut every last piece off of the car just to get it to go.

 

If that were the case, I'd just build a full out tube buggy with a 4.3 v6, 60 front, and Corporate 14 rear. Then I'd go buy me a nice shiney trailer.

 

And things like gas are kinda necessary when wheeling....:-\

I'm a fat guy too; I suppose I should probably leave my *** at the trail head.

My point is, a little gear is necessary. Without it, you aren't wheeling safely.

 

I think I figured out why the 3rd gens don't break axles.....

[GeneralDisorder]

I think I figured out why the 3rd gens don't break axles.....

 

That, and they run them almost flat angled. They are also longer which makes the angles shallower for any given rise in suspension.

 

I've wheeled with my share of EA82's, and short of stuff like Scott has built (which frankly isn't an EA.... anything. You may as well call that completely custom...) the 81's do quite a bit better generally speaking. For one thing the EA81's have 2" higher ground clearance.... bone stock.

 

Tune it up and you should be fine with some 27" tires. Gut the exhaust and put on a cone filter with a snorkel. Should be good enough to get you in trouble.

 

GD

[Virrdog]

Just don't forget the stuff you mentioned before... get it tuned up good.

 

Make sure the PCV system is clean if you don't eliminate it and definitely check your engine timing, one wagon I bought was running only 3 degrees of advance!! Needless to say it perked up a bit after setting the timing to max. factory specs.

 

[3eyedwagon]

I have set the ignition base timing (with the test connectors plugged together) to 20* btdc, and have narrowed the problems down to only one.

 

The car runs well at both idle, and high rpms. It will even rev well under no load, IF you tease the throttle.

However, if you full out punch the throttle, the engine will stall, and sputter. If you do not lift, it will sometimes die. If you lift lightly, the engine will begin to catch up, and eventually rev past the trouble range of 2,500-3,500 rpm.

 

I have read Daeron's Throttle Postitioning sensor post, and I am going to test to see if it is operating correctly.

 

Other than that, I am beginning to run out of ideas.

 

Anyone out there have any?

[3eyedwagon]

I have been testing my TPS using Daeron's write up.

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=79393

 

I have encountered a few problems.

 

While measuring resistance between posts B and D; I cannot get a measurement OF ANY SORT. I have tried using multiple Ohm settings on my multi-meter, and have been unable to get any type of reading. I have considered the fact that placement of posts may be different, as described in the write up. Trying combinations of other posts results in no readings as well, with the exception of posts A-B, as mentioned in the post. All in all, I believe my testing procedures are being performed correctly.

 

 

 

The sweep resistance readings between posts B and C have been measurable, but not in the #4 K Ohm setting as described. They have only been measurable in the 4, and 40 M Ohm settings. However, they have swept continuously as described in the test procedure.

 

I am wondering if the lack of reading regarding post B and D means that my TPS is no good?

 

The symptoms are listed in my above post.

 

 

UPDATE

I have been finding the testing of this sensor to be very hit or miss. It seems to depend on which time I test it as to the readings I receive. I am getting a little frustrated :-\ .

 

The car has sat for awhile after re-timing it (read; it has cooled down), and I then used the same procedure to re-test the TPS.

 

All measurements are still only readable in M ohms, rather than K ohms as described in Daeron's procedure.

 

With everything cool, the resting resistance of posts B-D measures from 3.2ish M Ohms to around 5.5 M Ohms.

 

Now, the sweep of posts B-C has changed dramatically. There is not much change in the resistance while operating the throttle linkage.

 

Is this a normal change after letting the sensor cool?

 

Are there other test procedures I am over looking?

 

any help would be great, as I am beginning to get a bit frazzled.