pros cons of soobs or Toys

[Rooinater]

4wheeling is all about your definition. to me it's a progression, soobs are great for starting out, but at some point some people's progression with equipment and trails exceeds what can be done with a subaru. within the tolerances of a reasonable margin of breakage potential. a soob can no longer hold together with where i wheel. therefore it just sits in my yard, needing someone to buy it and wheel it. from what i've read, i do agree with zap on the jeeps and toy thing. i've met more friendly toyota owners that are very accepting, vs snobby jeep owners. another reason for switching to toyota, they have a similar community to the subaru's. in general they are more accepting of crazy ideas, modifications down the line. my belief on that is you buy the jeep for the name or status, while a toyota owner picks up his truck for a grand and throws in less than the jeep cost and has a highly capable rig. a soob is actually an excellent starting 4x4. for the simple fact that if you learn to make all the lines in a soob, after adjusting to a solid axle you'll progress faster and see all the lines that someone starting with a built rig won't even see.

[Phizinza]

Could it be Jeeps are more expensive so they attract a more "up market" buyer? And those people are never accepting of how a cheaper rig can be so much better offroad.

[3eyedwagon]

Could it be Jeeps are more expensive so they attract a more "up market" buyer? And those people are never accepting of how a cheaper rig can be so much better offroad.

 

I don't think that's the case. You can pick up, and wheel a XJ for nothing. And they are honestly one of the most efficient wheeling machines around. Especially the two doors.

 

If I ever had the desire to wheel something that was all bolt on stuff; I would probably go with a XJ. They have the best return per dollar in wheeling goodies, in my opinion.

[Rooinater]

I don't think that's the case. You can pick up, and wheel a XJ for nothing. And they are honestly one of the most efficient wheeling machines around. Especially the two doors.

 

If I ever had the desire to wheel something that was all bolt on stuff; I would probably go with a XJ. They have the best return per dollar in wheeling goodies, in my opinion.

 

yeah, and if you know enough jeepers, they generally discount the xj as not being a "real" jeep... they are a great little mild and cheap wheeler, but their unibodies start seperating with heavy use. several of my buddies that actually wheeled their xj have had to replace the vehicles several times because the seams on the unibodies start cracking and seperating when you start flexing the grocery getter. they make reenforcement plates, but the body still flexes like crazy. if i were to get a jeep i'd get one that has an actual frame. flexy vehicles + no real frame = body seperation and cracks at the various joints and seams. samething with old c-channel frames, they get twisted enough, they start to crack. subaru unibodies are at least built well and when my car is flexed i can still open and close my doors... try twisting up an xj or a grand and get out then try and close your door... i see it all the time and laugh, cause not even the subaru has that problem. solid axle toyota pickups can be picked up for the same price or less than a cherokee, and will take more abuse offroad.

[Phizinza]

I don't think that's the case. You can pick up, and wheel a XJ for nothing. And they are honestly one of the most efficient wheeling machines around. Especially the two doors.

Ok, didn't realise they are cheap over there. I just know you pay through the noes for a Jeep in Aus.

[3eyedwagon]

yeah, and if you know enough jeepers, they generally discount the xj as not being a "real" jeep... they are a great little mild and cheap wheeler, but their unibodies start seperating with heavy use. several of my buddies that actually wheeled their xj have had to replace the vehicles several times because the seams on the unibodies start cracking and seperating when you start flexing the grocery getter. they make reenforcement plates, but the body still flexes like crazy. if i were to get a jeep i'd get one that has an actual frame. flexy vehicles + no real frame = body seperation and cracks at the various joints and seams. samething with old c-channel frames, they get twisted enough, they start to crack. subaru unibodies are at least built well and when my car is flexed i can still open and close my doors... try twisting up an xj or a grand and get out then try and close your door... i see it all the time and laugh, cause not even the subaru has that problem. solid axle toyota pickups can be picked up for the same price or less than a cherokee, and will take more abuse offroad.

 

The literally dozens of XJs I know have never had any of those problems,

And the mobs of people that wheel them, and the clubs that support them might argue your claim.

 

The ONLY problem with the unibodies I have EVER encountered are on ones that have been in major wrecks.

 

As far as your claim of taking more abuse offroad.... that'd be one I'd be more than willing to argue with you. I think it would be more than a fair fight, IF; the Toyota kept all Toyota parts, and the Jeep kept all Jeep parts.

 

Or even if you just kept them to their stock components. No upgrades allowed, other than maybe suspension, and tires. Possibly gearing too, with some restrictions.

 

That way you are speaking to the true capability of the vehicle.

 

Let me tell you from experience: the Toyota would be up **** creek.

 

Without the VAST aftermarket, and the pilfering of designs from other vehicles; the Toyota pickup would be nowhere in the wheeling industry.

 

It would probably be classified well below the XJ.

[TheSubaruJunkie]

3 Eyed, its obvious you have no clue what you are speaking of.

 

A stock XJ is not "more capable" than a stock Toyota pickup.

 

Here is a '84 Toyota:

 

and here is your beloved XJ:

 

Both in stock form. Anyone with two eyes would put their money on the Toyota.

[3eyedwagon]

3 Eyed, its obvious you have no clue what you are speaking of.

 

A stock XJ is not "more capable" than a stock Toyota pickup.

 

Both in stock form. Anyone with two eyes would put their money on the Toyota.

 

And, anyone with two eyes, and a brain could have read/interpreted my post.

 

NOWHERE in my post is the sentence, or could even be contrived the phrase: "A stock XJ is more capable than a stock Toyota pickup."

 

I think you should really try re-reading it, and coming at me with a legitimate, well thought out post. That meaning; something other than a couple of quickly found Google pics, and a broadly painted mis-quote of my conversation with other people whom are having actual engaging thoughts with me, and bringing up strong points.

 

My post spoke to the "capabilities" of each vehicles drivetrain. Not to their capabilities off of the showroom floor. If that were the case, I wouldn't be mentioning the XJ, but probably instead a Uni-Mog.

[Rooinater]

 

Or even if you just kept them to their stock components. No upgrades allowed,

 

 

there's the quote, then you say maybe some suspension and limited gearing options, that must be strictly enforced... because the xj has known POS np231 tcase, and in order to make it somewhat "stronger" you have to get the slip yoke eliminator kit, which costs as much as a doubler kit for my toyota or more... not to mention that to get better gearing out of the np231 you have to then buy a measly 4:1 kit. for nearly the same cost as buying a doubler and a gear kit for my toyota, you'd have a 4:1 tcase while my toyota would have a 10:1... not to mention if you swap out to a bigger motor with a cherokee you might as well go spend the money on an atlas case to replace the pos chain driven transfer case. the toyota's on the otherhand is a gear driven case that has been proven to last behind V8's.

 

jeep xj

slip yoke elliminator 269.99

4:1 gear kit 999.99

total 1269.99

 

toyota

dual case adapter 369.99

4.7:1 gear kit 399.99

used second tcase 100.00

total 869.98

 

hmmm... with the savings from building the tcase alone to more than double what you can to build a np231, you can get a ring and pinion set with master install kits from porc off of the pirate board. then with the xj if you have half a brain you'd look into a set of these

http://jeep.off-road.com/jeep/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=261131

 

i'm with junkie on this one, do you know what you are arguing, especially trying to say that there is not a probably with frame stress and cracking with xj's. maybe you should reread your posts before you say their is no way to construe that you said that.

[3eyedwagon]

there's the quote, then you say maybe some suspension and limited gearing options, that must be strictly enforced... because the xj has known POS np231 tcase, and in order to make it somewhat "stronger" you have to get the slip yoke eliminator kit, which costs as much as a doubler kit for my toyota or more... not to mention that to get better gearing out of the np231 you have to then buy a measly 4:1 kit. for nearly the same cost as buying a doubler and a gear kit for my toyota, you'd have a 4:1 tcase while my toyota would have a 10:1... not to mention if you swap out to a bigger motor with a cherokee you might as well go spend the money on an atlas case to replace the pos chain driven transfer case. the toyota's on the otherhand is a gear driven case that has been proven to last behind V8's.

 

jeep xj

slip yoke elliminator 269.99

4:1 gear kit 999.99

total 1269.99

 

toyota

dual case adapter 369.99

4.7:1 gear kit 399.99

used second tcase 100.00

total 869.98

 

hmmm... with the savings from building the tcase alone to more than double what you can to build a np231, you can get a ring and pinion set with master install kits from porc off of the pirate board. then with the xj if you have half a brain you'd look into a set of these

http://jeep.off-road.com/jeep/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=261131

 

i'm with junkie on this one, do you know what you are arguing, especially trying to say that there is not a probably with frame stress and cracking with xj's. maybe you should reread your posts before you say their is no way to construe that you said that.

 

I'm not here to argue that the XJ is the greatest wheeler on the planet.

The comment was made that Jeeps are expensive to wheel, and I provided an example of one that isn't. Just one. There are plenty of other Jeep platforms that could be built for far less. My M38A1 was dirt cheap, and went everywhere (except if there was snow on the ground) . But, it also had an oddfire GM V6, Danas, and a NV trans, and a Saturn overdrive. Hardly a Jeep.

 

I have however wheeled with at least a dozen that I can remember, and seen some pretty amazing stuff done. The SINGLE problem with the unibody that I can remember seeing is on my friends, which took a fairly long drive down a steep hill, unpiloted, and ended up dropping off a logging road onto a rather largish stump.

 

Of course they have problems if you go big, uni-body construction is probably their major downfall. However it is also one of their strength. Flex is what we are after, isn't it?

 

No upgrades allowed, other than maybe suspension, and tires

 

You left out a major part of my quote, which is probably what is leading to confusion.

 

As far as your price quotes:

 

You are a HUNDRED percent right. I won't argue that a bit.

 

You can build a "Toyota" transfer case for far cheaper than that of a Jeeps.

 

I just have to laugh at how into it you Toyota guys are. My brother is one of you, and he can't see the forrest through the trees. You all definitely show devotion.

 

My point is this:

 

You build a "Toyota", and claim how amazing your "Toyota's" are.

 

By the time you are done, most of them barely even resemble, or ARE Toyotas. With all the aftermarket parts required to weed out the weak links, can you still really call it a Toyota? I mean, in the end, you are really bragging about a frame, cab, transmission/transfer (stuffed full of aftermarket parts), v6 third members from later Toyotas, and a motor that will barely push it all down the road at highway speeds.

 

I understand that every single vehicle out there has it's strong points, and it's weak points. The path to build a decent Toyota has been made incredibly simple by the people ahead of you, and in the end; maybe you are the smarter one for taking advantage of a aftermarket so full of easy upgrades.

 

All I find funny is that people out there are so incredibly tunnel visioned about how what they are building is the absolute tops, and all others aren't. Especially when most of it has been designed years before them, and handed to them for the cost of a paycheck.

[TheSubaruJunkie]

As far as your claim of taking more abuse offroad.... that'd be one I'd be more than willing to argue with you. I think it would be more than a fair fight, IF; the Toyota kept all Toyota parts, and the Jeep kept all Jeep parts.

 

Well there you go... all toyota parts and all jeep parts. With my "google images". Still, the toyota hands down!

 

Or even if you just kept them to their stock components. No upgrades allowed, other than maybe suspension, and tires. Possibly gearing too, with some restrictions.

 

Well, thats not very "stock" but I'll play your game:

 

 

Take the cage off the Toyota, and your looking at about the same amount of lift, with the same size tires.....

 

That way you are speaking to the true capability of the vehicle.

Glad we're both still on the same page.

 

Let me tell you from experience: the Toyota would be up **** creek.

Let me tell you from experience. The Toyota would be pulling the XJ back to camp at the end of the night.

 

Without the VAST aftermarket, and the pilfering of designs from other vehicles; the Toyota pickup would be nowhere in the wheeling industry.

 

It would probably be classified well below the XJ.

 

The same could be said for Jeep, Subaru, Suzuki... anyone.

[ezapar]

My Toy has a 3 inch spring lift and 33s. Other than that, it's stock.

 

 

You can hate it all you want, and that's fine with me. You can have all the fun you want poking at us to try to get us riled up, that's fine too.

I love my trouble-free truck. I love how it wheels, I love how it doesn't complain about being loaded to the bump stops with gravel or whatever else I put in it. I dig how it starts up and runs even on the coldest days. I like that I can tilt it and it purrs like a kitten.

 

Every time I drove my last Brat, I thought to myself, "I'd sure hate to sell this if I needed the money." Every time I drive/drove my Toy, I said to myself. "F that Brat, I'll never sell my Toy."

The ONLY thing I'd trade it for would be a 4runner the same year and condition, cuz I could use more seats to bring my family along.

 

No contest.

[TeamCF]

My Toy has a 3 inch spring lift and 33s. Other than that, it's stock.

 

Thats a nice pic right there.

 

Thinkin' everybody needs to quit arguing about it and go out and enjoy what they have to wheel at the moment.

 

I know I'd be out there right now if I didn't have to wait till tomarrow night to get my clutch. Since when is a Subaru clutch a "rare special order" item in the NW?! (seems to be in Portland)

 

See, makes my wish there was a Yota sitting in the driveway right now to hit the woods in.

[ezapar]

eBay is the best place to shop for clutches adn the like. Cheap and easy.

[Rooinater]

I know I'd be out there right now if I didn't have to wait till tomarrow night to get my clutch. Since when is a Subaru clutch a "rare special order" item in the NW?! (seems to be in Portland)

 

 

the subaru rear axles are that way up here. and they make you pay for the shipping and core charge along with the axle, then they refund the price of the axle. eventhough you have the lifetime warranty and the part in hand at the store

[3eyedwagon]

You can hate it all you want, and that's fine with me. You can have all the fun you want poking at us to try to get us riled up, that's fine too.

 

Hate is a strong word.

 

I'd just like to think that I'm a little more realistic about Toyota pickups.

 

I owned a small fleet of Toyota pickups at one point, and probably wheeled them longer than you have. Not trying to start a pissing contest, just giving you an idea of how I came to my conclusions. I've spent ALOT more hours working on Toyotas than I have Subarus.

 

They are a fine pickup. They do most things ok. I'm sure yours does everything you want it to just fine.

 

The only thing I'm here to say is that they aren't as remarkable of a vehicle as the general Toyota owners wishes to claim that they are. They aren't bulletproof, they aren't unstoppable, and they aren't magical in any way.

 

If someone wants to make a good wheeler out of one; it takes alot of work, alot of knowledge, and a good fistful of dollars to do so. The same goes for most rigs.

 

There are a multitude of vehicles out there that can do everything as well as the Toyota pickup. every. single. day. Some may do some things better, and some things worse. But I'll gladly tell anyone, whether it be 3 people, or a million staring me in the face; the Toyota pickup is not a stand above the crowd, remarkable truck. It has survived the years by being mediocre, and that is the honest to god truth. They do about everything medium well, and they do nothing particularly, amazingly well. Own one long enough, drive some other similar sized pickups, and you will see that I am not lying, and I am not bashing on the Toyota. They are just another small pickup, in a group of about a dozen.

 

And in the end, arguing about it is a joke; because in thirty years or so..... you 80-85 Toyota lover's are hosed! rust never sleeps.....:-\

[TheSubaruJunkie]

The only thing I'm here to say is that they aren't as remarkable of a vehicle as the general Toyota owners wishes to claim that they are. They aren't bulletproof, they aren't unstoppable, and they aren't magical in any way.

 

Tell that to the guys on Top Gear.

[ezapar]

Hate is a strong word.

I used it as a figure of speech. I doubt you have any real animosity towards them.

"Hate", a song by KISS on their 1997 album Carnival of Souls: The Final Sessions. :-p

 

 

They are a fine pickup. They do most things ok. I'm sure yours does everything you want it to just fine.

 

Indeed, that was the point of this thread.

 

 

They are just another small pickup, in a group of about a dozen.

 

I'll bite. Name the other dozen or so 85 solid axle sporting 4Xs with EFI. Kidding, there aren't any, except maybe the rare jeep pickup. I see your point about them not shining above the crowd. But please tell me which truck you would call the one who does. This would be a solid axle 4X truck.

 

And in the end, arguing about it is a joke; because in thirty years or so..... you 80-85 Toyota lover's are hosed! rust never sleeps.....:-\

 

I suppose. Luckily (knock on wood) my truck's only rust is on the sides of the bed, and only a verrrry small amount. Can't say I see myself owning one in 30 years. Although my kid might.

 

Not bad for a pretty stock truck. I have the photo of a Brat trying this too. . .

[NoahDL88]

you 80-85 Toyota lover's are hosed! rust never sleeps.....:-\

 

They made the 80's Subies out of the same recycled beer cans

[Rooinater]

I've spent ALOT more hours working on Toyotas than I have Subarus.

 

If someone wants to make a good wheeler out of one; it takes alot of work, alot of knowledge, and a good fistful of dollars to do so. The same goes for most rigs.

 

And in the end, arguing about it is a joke; because in thirty years or so..... you 80-85 Toyota lover's are hosed! rust never sleeps.....:-\

 

A lemon is a lemon, so you've proved you've had several lemons. As for the rust issue, my subaru has more rust. Dents or a roll over will detroy the body before the rust will put it in it's place. A cheap body w/title off craigslist or a formulatoy body will fix that problem. it's all in how you pick your vehicles, inspect your vehicles and or for what purpose you buy your vehicles. Does building a toyota cost money, yes. Is it more expensive than building most other vehicles, no, unless you don't know how to turn a wrench or get dirty. My subaru will have about the same amount of money into it as the toyota by the time i'm done building the yota. Which will be more capable??? the toyota's are very capable in stock form with a GOOD driver, you can put a bad driver behind any vehicle and the "vehicle will suck." Since this is a rivalry between soob owners and toyota owners (eventhough we all seem to still have soobs) why don't you buckle up and challenge zap's "mediocre" toy (as you put it) against the awesome supercapable soob you have built.

[NoahDL88]

why don't you buckle up and challenge zap's "mediocre" toy (as you put it) against the awesome supercapable soob you have built.

 

My money is on Zap, even if he's in a Fwd Oldsmobuick.

 

The biggest determining factor on the capibility of a rig is the thing between the seat and the steering wheel

[3eyedwagon]

I'll bite. Name the other dozen or so 85 solid axle sporting 4Xs with EFI. Kidding, there aren't any, except maybe the rare jeep pickup. I see your point about them not shining above the crowd. But please tell me which truck you would call the one who does. This would be a solid axle 4X truck.

 

Like I said; they all have upsides, and all obviously have downsides. I'm just pointing out the Toyota's, because nobody else wants to. If you guys really want to, we can go through each older mid-size one by one, and ALL call out their problems. Heck, it might even be fun!

Maybe Rooinater could unwind by calling some of my crap out. Just to let you know Rooinater, my weakness is the s-10.

 

The 4.3 V6 (aside from its' one oil galley) was sent to us directly from Jesus F. Christo himself.

 

Any slightly older 1/2 ton domestic, be it Dodge, Ford, GM, will never fit in the places a Toyota will. At least not for the first few trips, until you get it good, and rounded off. But, it will haul alot more crap, and be able to tow the boat, camper, etc.

 

There are alot of IFS trucks out there that, with a little lift can keep up with a Toyota on 33"s, and have some other great attributes about them. Many of them have superior drivetrains, and higher-end capabilities. Some of them are even newer Toyotas! I know you are gonna curse IFS, but hey; its' here, and we are gonna have to start dealing with it/cutting it out sooner or later. :-p

 

That's all I want to point out. If everyone decides to wheel nothing but pre-86 Toyota's, or Jeeps; we are going to run out of Jeeps, and Toyotas.

 

And more importantly; miss out on some good vehicles, and some possibilities for some truely original ideas.

[3eyedwagon]

A lemon is a lemon, so you've proved you've had several lemons. As for the rust issue, my subaru has more rust. Dents or a roll over will detroy the body before the rust will put it in it's place. A cheap body w/title off craigslist or a formulatoy body will fix that problem. it's all in how you pick your vehicles, inspect your vehicles and or for what purpose you buy your vehicles. Does building a toyota cost money, yes. Is it more expensive than building most other vehicles, no, unless you don't know how to turn a wrench or get dirty. My subaru will have about the same amount of money into it as the toyota by the time i'm done building the yota. Which will be more capable??? the toyota's are very capable in stock form with a GOOD driver, you can put a bad driver behind any vehicle and the "vehicle will suck." Since this is a rivalry between soob owners and toyota owners (eventhough we all seem to still have soobs) why don't you buckle up and challenge zap's "mediocre" toy (as you put it) against the awesome supercapable soob you have built.

 

I'm obviously never going to be able to make you see what I am trying to say, and I'm obviously at fault as much as you are.

 

When I say a negative thing about something, be it a Toyota Pickup, or a Dodge Coronet; I'm very, very rarely calling it a total piece of crap. Like I've tried to say repeatedly; Toyota's do have bad things about them, they aren't all sunshine, and lollipops. I don't think I've said that Toyotas out, and out suck. I even checked back to make sure, and couldn't really find a case where I had. I will however stand by my guns that there are things ABOUT THEM that do suck.

 

Not being able to get off the gas fast enough to stop front axle hop before it breaks a Birfield = SUCKS.

Changing Birfield Joints = SUCKS.

The cost of a Birfield Eliminator kit dropping hundreds of dollars AFTER purchasing my last one = SUCKS! (the last Birfield Eliminator kit I bought was just under $700.... )

Looking up the interstate from the overpass, to look for a gap in the traffic before hitting the onramp = SUCKS

Electrolysis mysteriously whiping out heads/headgaskets, despite efforts to alleviate it = SUCKS

Mysterious grounding issues = SUCK

 

But hey, I can go down a list about Subarus, and do the exact same thing.

 

Breaking the same front joint design as a Toyota, while not being able to go as many places = it sucks.

Not being able to haul all that crap = it sucks

NO gearing options = oh yeah, that sucks

Trying to figure out my rear axle geometry to stop breaking rear axles on a car that I really enjoy driving = yup, definitely sucks.

Worrying about every last ounce of weight in order to make up for my lack of gearing, especially when I'm a fat *** = that kinda sucks

The reality that I am probably going to beat the car to death to go everywhere = that sucks too

 

This list can be made for pretty much anything.

 

I can assure you; only one of my Toys was a lemon. Jeff actually helped me load it on a trailer, and take it to some friend's house here recently. Heck, I'm even damn proud of how some of them turned out. Especially both the ones my bro ended up with. They are out, and out machines. But, it took a LOT of work to get them there, and I honestly think it would be inaccurate to give the credit to Toyota, because there are alot of other parts on there to get them to work well, and ALOT of hours spent staring at stuff trying to figure out how to get it on there, and working right. That's why I'm not giving the credit to Toyota. They built an OK platform, and other people have made it great.

 

As for your idea of issuing a challenge to Zap; I honestly don't think I'm quite ready for that one. As is now, none of my Subs could go quite as far as a Toy on 33"s. But, I'll keep working on it, and I'll let you both know when I'm ready. And, when the day comes that I give you a call; even if I don't make it quite as far... I'll still have won in my mind. Because I'll have designed, and built every last piece of my inferior pile of crap. The journey will have been made by the sweat of my brow. I won't have Trailblazer, or Skyjacker, or AllPro to thank. OR BLAME. It will all be on my back, and even if I'm sitting at the trailhead, trying to figure out where I went wrong; I'm ok with that.

[3eyedwagon]

Tell that to the guys on Top Gear.

 

That is probably my favorite show on TV. Jeremy is the man.

 

But, just for the record;

 

Pretty much any well made modern pickup could've/should've survived that fall.

 

Did you see Mr. Slow top out the Bugatti Veyron?

 

253 mph / 407 kph

Magical, I think I would've had tears in my eyes.

[MorganM]

I see the same reasoning in this thread as the reason I went to a Samurai. Built a very capable GL wagon and raged it off road but wanted to go to the next level. I could have spent a few grand and taken a Subaru to the next level OR buy a Samurai (Toyota or Jeep!) that's already at the next level and build up from there. I opted for a new platform and to build up from there. Some people choose to stay with a Subaru, force it to the next level, and come up with some amazingly sweet rigs.

 

Even looking back now I'm glad I started with my Subaru. Had a blast off road and many adventures in it. Learned a lot rebuilding the engine, converting it from 2WD to 4WD, and maintaining it. It's not a bad way to start; in fact I think they are great platforms to get into the sport with. Cheap to buy one, easy to work on, reliable given their age/millage, and capable enough to take you anywhere you dare to drive.

 

Oh, a note on brand snobbishness. I think it's pertinent to point out the difference between super cool Toyota minitruck / 4 runner guys and their snobby Toyota Land Cruiser counterparts

 

LOL! In all seriousness I've met 90% awesome people and 10% jerks out on the trails. Could I separate them by what they drive? Sure. Would it be an accurate depiction of how owners of a particular brand behave? I don't think so. Just my observations.

Edited September 26, 2008 by MorganM