Pre-purchase advice

[Oldacura]

I don't presently own but am considering buying an Outback.

 

A local private party has a 2002 Outback for sale with 70k miles. I've found 2 things wrong with it:

 

The Check Engine light is on (don't know the code or how to find the code) and I hear a buzz or rattle coming from under the car at about 2500 rpm - especially as the rpms drop.

 

Any guesses as to what these are? The buzz might be a heat shield rattle but I have no clue about the CEL. I also notice a slight stumble or hesitation on acceleration.

 

Thanks

[j2coe]

see if you can take it for a test drive to a local parts store. lots of them will test a check engine for free and tell you what code(s) are present.

[Flowmastered87GL]

as with any 2.5 liter engine.... have the head gaskets checked out preferibly by a reputable subaru mechanic. Its ok if they are bad, just adjust the price accordingly, get them fixed and have a great car for another load of miles

[edrach]

I don't presently own but am considering buying an Outback.

 

A local private party has a 2002 Outback for sale with 70k miles. I've found 2 things wrong with it:

 

The Check Engine light is on (don't know the code or how to find the code) and I hear a buzz or rattle coming from under the car at about 2500 rpm - especially as the rpms drop.

 

Any guesses as to what these are? The buzz might be a heat shield rattle but I have no clue about the CEL. I also notice a slight stumble or hesitation on acceleration.

 

Thanks

You are probably correct about the heat shield causing the rattle.

 

As to the CEL code, take it for a test drive and stop at an auto parts store and have them read it for you. Most places will do that for free; call ahead to make sure. You really need to know what the code is; might be cheap and easy to fix, and it could also indicate a potentially expensive repair. Once you know the code, get an estimate of repair from a reputable shop.

 

All that being said, I ALWAYS take a potential sale to a shop that I trust and pay them the $100 or so for a pre-buy inspection. I certainly don't do this for every car I look at, but if I decide to buy it, that's the first thing I will do with it before I pay the seller.

 

Also, it doesn't hurt to do a carfax check and look at Kelly Blue Book and NADA pricing for that car. Remember KBB prices are optimistic and favor the seller. NADA prices are low and favor the buyer. This Outback should fall somewhere between those two numbers.

 

Good luck with your purchase and it's nice to see someone smart enough to ask before he buys the car.

[idosubaru]

rattle - heat shields are common, but certainly there are other possibilities.

 

check engine could be a multitude of things. cylinder misfire due to needed tune up is likely. plugs and wires will fix that, if it's never been changed they're due. knock sensor is another common item, easily replaced in a few minutes.

 

check for torque bind

check for external head gasket leaks if it has the 2.5 liter. they are noticeable at the rear of the engine.

[Oldacura]

Thanks for the info.

 

Code P1507 -What does this mean?

 

They are asking $11k. The car is cosmetically in pretty good shape. Base model with 5 speed. I crawled under the car & found an oil leak out of the rear of the transmission (?) (just ahead of the drive shaft). Didn't think to smell it to see if it was gear oil or not. Is this common? Serious?

 

I drove it slowly in a parking lot and ran the wheels lock to lock. No unusual noises. Would this have indicated a torque bind?

 

Thanks again for your help.

[Oldacura]

Thanks for the info.

 

Code P1507 -What does this mean?

 

They are asking $11k. The car is cosmetically in pretty good shape. Base model with 5 speed. I crawled under the car & found an oil leak out of the rear of the transmission (?) (just ahead of the drive shaft). Didn't think to smell it to see if it was gear oil or not. Is this common? Serious?

 

I drove it slowly in a parking lot and ran the wheels lock to lock. No unusual noises. Would this have indicated a torque bind?

 

Thanks again for your help.

[edrach]

P1507---idle control malfunction. Idle is not where the ECU expects it to be. A warmed up engine idles around 750rpm; around 900 with the air conditioning on.

 

This could be as simple as a dirty air filter; as bad a faulty idle air control valve.

 

$11K for a car with a check engine light sounds high to me. Which model outback is it?

 

I don't want to discourage you, but you should get a qualified mechanic to check this out for you.

[four-fleet-feet]

P1507 - Idle Control Sysytem Malfunction (Fail-safe)

Check HERE for the OBD codes; bookmark it so you'll always have it for reference.

 

I'd go to two Subaru dealers in your area, describe the leak you saw, plus the OBD code, and get the repair cost estimate in writing; then talk to the owner. If they are willing to deal, now's the time to get the car inspected by a Subaru-savvy shop (and no, not your average mechanic who has never seen a Subaru, I mean a real we-speak-Subaru shop) for a pre-purchase check.

 

Most owners will negotiate a price if it's obvious you know the cost of fixing the car, and (at least some of) what's wrong with it in the first place. Above all, do NOT let the current owner specify the shop for the presale check. It might be $100 or so out of your pocket, if you decide not to buy, but that's much better than $11k out of the bank and a problem in your driveway!

 

Of course, you could always look for another car, but that's up to you.

[edrach]

Comments from four-fleet-feet are right on the money.

 

With the limited info I have, Kelly Blue Book has the price at just under $11K, NADA at $9K. This is for a car without a malfunction; i.e. your P1507 code or a transmission leak.

 

Again get a carfax report to insure the mileage is legitimate and take it to a Subaru savvy mechanic for a check out and then negotiate the price from there.

 

For a private sale without any warranty, I really feel $11K is very high. I would suspect a local Subaru dealer can beat that with a similar Outback and give you some warranty.

 

I don't want to discourage you, but you're wise to be careful.

 

Re-reading your earlier post, regarding the leak out the rear of the transmission. I have 145K on my Impreza and the rear seal is just fine. That seal should be taken care of; and it might be indicative of a car with more than 70K on it.

 

There must be USMB members in your area that can suggest a qualified Subaru shop to take it to for an inspection. Speak up guys!

[McDave]

It's setting an idle control code because the neutral switch on the tranny is acting up so the computer doesn't know when it's in gear or in neutral. A shop with a scanner that can read data will be able to watch the switch's actions while jiggling the shifter.

 

The neutral switch could also be the source of the fluid leak and is related to it acting up.

[edrach]

It's setting an idle control code because the neutral switch on the tranny is acting up so the computer doesn't know when it's in gear or in neutral. A shop with a scanner that can read data will be able to watch the switch's actions while jiggling the shifter.

 

The neutral switch could also be the source of the fluid leak and is related to it acting up.

If I'm not mistaken, this is a 5 speed manual. I'm not sure if the 5MT has a neutral switch or if it really cares.

[McDave]

If I'm not mistaken, this is a 5 speed manual. I'm not sure if the 5MT has a neutral switch or if it really cares.

Sure it does. Check this thread...

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=91424

[edrach]

Sure it does. Check this thread...

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=91424

Thanks, one learns something new everyday. I was working from the FSM for my '97 Impreza. In going back to the FSM, it doesn't list a code P0519 (jumps from P0505 to P600) and the diagram for the P1517 code doesn't show anything related to the neutral switch. However, I can't argue with the link you posted (especially the endwrench article). Thanks. That link should go into the USRM for ease of finding it again.

 

Just as an aside, I've had IAC issues with my Impreza (idle at 1500) which never kicked out a CEL code. Luckily Seafoam cured that issue for me. But now I think I understand why it didn't kick out a code.

[Oldacura]

I haven't taken any action on this car. I took a sample of the quite dirty oil and dropped it off at an oil analysis lab this AM. I should have results this afternoon.

 

Based on what I have read here, the P1507 doesn't really concern me. The leak in the rear seal does.

 

The seller doesn't seem all that anxious to sell. I'm not all that anxious to buy. I've looked at a lot of Outbacks locally. This one seems to be priced well in this area based on the mileage and cosmetic condition. Outbacks are very popular around here.

 

If I choosed to take it farther, the seller agreed that I could take it to a mechanic for inspection ($80). I tentatively arranged to take it to a Subaru dealer in Boulder but I may try to find an independent shop closer to where I work.

 

Thanks again for your help.

[edrach]

I tentatively arranged to take it to a Subaru dealer in Boulder but I may try to find an independent shop closer to where I work.

 

Boulder? You're in Colorado? Lots of USMB members in that area. Your District of Columbia listing mis-led me.

 

Smart to be careful; you have to live with being overanxious if the worst happens.

[four-fleet-feet]

I haven't taken any action on this car. I took a sample of the quite dirty oil and dropped it off at an oil analysis lab this AM... Based on what I have read here, the P1507 doesn't really concern me. The leak in the rear seal does... I tentatively arranged to take it to a Subaru dealer in Boulder but I may try to find an independent shop closer to where I work.

You know, maybe you wouldn't be concerned, but I would be.

 

$11k's a chunk of change, and seems overpriced to me - and I live in a place where there are Subarus everywhere. Used ones go fast.

 

Add it up: 'quite dirty oil' on a car up for sale. A leak behind the transmission. A CEL - which will kill most emissions/smog checks upon arrival - you won't be able to transfer the registration until you take care of the problem. Sounds like this car wasn't taken care of.

 

If I was looking at this car, I'd have quotes on the repairs from two dealers to show the current owner - either the price goes down to cover them, or I'd walk. I know the pre-inspection fee hurts, but I'd go to a dealer for it - at least they know their Subarus. Independent shops have nothing wrong with them - I'm fond of Roopair and Smart Service in WA - but you want a dealer to give you the bad news. You might find a cheaper place to do the repairs, if you buy the car, but the dealer won't pull punches. If something's not up to snuff, they won't be shy about pointing it out to you.

 

I say this from past experience - I had an experienced mechanic look at my car pre-purchase, but he was not Subaru-savvy. What he missed cost another $300 (and a heckuva lot of junkyarding + trips for niggling little parts) to fix. Would have been over $1200 at the dealer if we hadn't been able to do it ourselves.

 

Just my 2 cents' worth.

[StructEngineer]

No way I would pay 11k for that car. You should be concerned about the 2.5L head gasket leak if you find that engine hasn't had the problem addressed. Somewhere in 2002 was the year in which they corrected the problem, so your engine may or may not be prone to it. I have an 2002 forester with 90k on it and really dont trust taking it on long trips because of fear of the HG letting loose as so many have. I always have a slight tinge of burning coolant coming from my engine bay....not enough for dealer to repair under the extended warranty.

[Subarupusher]

That seems like a rip off when this is available at the dealer in the 11K range.

 

http://mikescarffsubaru.vip.videocarlot.tv/used-inventory/vehicle-details.htm?vehicleId=e2b0eee64046381e017588d56f5382f4

 

You can get an LL Bean edition for $500 more at the same place.

 

These cars have similar mileage and a 3 month warranty.

 

I am not a salesman just a loyal customer. These are on the left coast however and I know that Subarus are not as common over there.

[screwbaru2]

I'm with the people who think 11k is too much. You want to know if the head gaskets have been CHANGED. The fact that they maybe good today means nothing for tomorrow! If the car has the original HG's I'd want $2000.00 taken off the price. These are great cars in every other respect, the HG's however can make these cars a great disapointment to the unaware buyer.

I bought a 97 that I overheated the same week I bought it. This was after I drove it and did a compression test on it. There is no telling when the HG's may leak only that they will if they are original. I'd feel safe buying 2004 and later they seem to have fixed it by then. Good luck:popcorn:

[Oldacura]

I've looked a a lot of Outbacks around here. Ones of this vintage are either abused, negelcted or priced quite a bit higher. The consensus seems to be that this is a lot to pay for a base model of this car but I've not seen any better deals.

 

Does anyone know based on the VIN how to tell when the headgasket problem was fixed in mid-year 2002?

 

I've looked at several 2005 and newer Outbacks. These seem to be considerably nicer cars - nicer interiors and better looking outside. The cloth seats are nicer. Also, side curtain airbags became standard in 2005.

 

Based on this, I would expect to see the 2005 & newer cars to be significantly more expensive than older ones but this doesn't seem to be the case.

[nickb21]

You could have a dealer look up the VIN and see if the "Cooling System Conditioner - Recall WWP-99" was completed or if the car is eligible for it.

 

My 2002 OBW is not eligible for the recall. The Manufacture Date on the drivers door says 02/02. HG's are good so far (fingers crossed).

 

The 05's+ are def very nice cars.

 

Good luck!

[Oldacura]

I had the dealer check the VIN - they say it is not subject to the HG recall.

 

I'm pretty picky about condition of cars. Based on what I have seen, a lot of people neglect and/or abuse their cars. There are a lot of Subarus for sale around here that are pretty beat up.