Cam/crank seals leaking after t-belt

[Mugs]

OK now that I have proclaimed myself as the designated suby tech at the shop I work in, I have been getting all the subys to work on Yah:banana: But here in lies a problem, 2 out of the 3 subys I did timing belts on are on a come back for leaks. Upon opening the timing covers back up there it is... a cam leak from a brand new seal . Problem, I mared the cam pulling the seal. The second one is coming back tommarrow, so I am sure I will be doing the same thing again. What I did was put a speedy sleeve over the damaged cam and replaced the seal and it solved the problem.

When the Snap On truck came today I asked him if he had anything special besides the the traditional seal puller and pick I have been using. He sold me a set of cool little spatula hooky thingys that some of the tech have been using at other shops...Hope they work...If they do I will report back and give part numbers...They are desigend to not mar finishes.

So this is my question to all the suby techs out there and others that are in the know. For me it is just standard to replace the seal on a t-belt job, along with all the other usual stuff, and yes I use suby parts. But in all 3 cases the seals have not been leaking when they came in, I just replaced them because you know murphy's law will have them leaking in 6 months and now were having to deal with warrenty work... So what do you all out there in suby land do...Leave the seals if they are not leaking, and then pray...or replace the seals, but use some special puller to get them out...It seems that no matter how careful I am I still mess one up. PLEAS HELP, ALL YE GREAT SUBY GURUS :-\ What is iti that I can do to avoid this problem and not piss the bos off any more, and continue to build up my suby niche. Thanks in advance for all the advise.

 

Some after thoughts... I use seal glide, I ensure proper instalation of the seal...I.E. it is not crooked etc, I clean all surfaces before instalation, I use a proper seal installer....What am I doing wrong?

[subaru360]

I do a lot of these. I replace them if they are leaking, leave them go if they aren't. I don't like to cause a leak. I just pop them out with a screwdriver and drive them in with a big socket, I've never had a problem.

[EVOthis]

+1^ i work for Subaru and the way we look at it is again if they arent leaking leave them alone.....also i have been talking to some of the master techs and they say usually they dont even do the water pump w/ the timing belt job because they rarely go bad....i found that kind of surprising.....

[Quidam]

2 out of the 3 subys I did timing belts on are on a come back for leaks. What I did was put a speedy sleeve over the damaged cam and replaced the seal and it solved the problem.

 

 

Some after thoughts... I use seal glide, I ensure proper instalation of the seal...I.E. it is not crooked etc, I clean all surfaces before instalation, I use a proper seal installer....What am I doing wrong?

 

You're on the right track. If it's grooved, and you don't want a come back, use the sleeve. Word.

 

hth

 

Doug

[subaru360]

+1^ i work for Subaru and the way we look at it is again if they arent leaking leave them alone.....also i have been talking to some of the master techs and they say usually they dont even do the water pump w/ the timing belt job because they rarely go bad....i found that kind of surprising.....

 

 

I usually don't change the water pump with a timing belt either. But most of the people that come to me are looking for the cheapest repairs possible. Just fix what's broken.

[idosubaru]

i typically replace the leaking seals only. if i replace the oring behind the cam seal, i replace the seal with it of course too.

 

if i pick up a car for a friend or relative and it has unknown history and decent age/mileage i'll do the it all.

 

i've never had a problem with leaks on the many that i've done. with the exception of one EA82 crank seal that was the wrong size (aftermarket part - Fel-Pro).

 

pulling seals is annoying. often i drill a tiny pilot hole, screw a self tapping sheet metal screw in the hole and pull it out with the screw.

[robm]

I tried the drill and screw idea. It is harder than it sounds. The seal is very hard metal, and the drill tends to slide to the inside where the soft rubber is, scoring the sealing surface. It is now a miracle that my crank seal doesn't leak. In future, I will just use a screwdriver or ice pick.

 

In case it lets go, is there "speedy sleeve" that fits the crank? Where can I obtain one?

[Quidam]

 

In case it lets go, is there "speedy sleeve" that fits the crank? Where can I obtain one?

 

2.2, Rock Auto. Check around, they're out there.

 

Doug

[ShawnW]

Theres a dealer tool available from Kent Moore for the Cam, Crank and rear main seals (for installing them) They are not cheap. They also have a tool that holds the crank pulley in place and another that turns the crank (slides over the end of it) to turn it for aligning.

 

My Matco truck has a tool with a screwdriver handle and a little twist thing that slides into the inner edge of the seal. Roughly 15 bucks and works a lot better in tight area than the old seal puller tools.

 

I dont replace the cam or crank seals on the 2.2 or 2.5 SOHC unless they are leaking.

The DOHC 2.5 and EJ20 I only do if I have the valve covers off.

 

I agree on the water pump, not leaking leave alone. The gaskets are what fails anyway. I do replace them if I am doing head gaskets though, along with the T-stat and gasket as well.

 

I usually only replace the cog/toothed idler and the smooth one on the top. On the bottom I put the better of the 2 used ones. The tensioner replace only if seeping oil out the top. I repin it gently with a prybar while its still mounted to the engine. Do not use a vise.

[msmithmmx]

Its not if, its when are they going to leak. I replace those 5 dollar parts anytime I do an engine. Here is the puller I use for the cam seals. I have not tried on the crank because I take the pump off and it is easier to hit it out from the inside of the pump.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lisle-Shaft-Type-Seal-Puller_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43996QQihZ018QQitemZ280268095488QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[idosubaru]

I tried the drill and screw idea. It is harder than it sounds.

it's much easier with the engine out of the car. but it is tricky either way. if you use a high quality bit and start with little pressure it's easily repeatable...but i agree it's totally annoying.

 

i'll check into that tool he just linked to on ebay...but not while i'm on dial up!

 

if the outside sealing surface was scarred i would imagine some sealant would seal that. but on the cam side would suck since it's moving.

 

has anyone actually used these redi-sleeve's? i had seen them listed before on parts places but have never heard of anyone using them. never really heard them mentioned on here before either. i want to ask what they do/how they work?

[Quidam]

 

has anyone actually used these redi-sleeve's? i want to ask what they do/how they work?

 

Hi Gary,

 

I've used them. They add dollars. They're effective tho.

 

When I hear, "and it still leaks oil", well, there you go.

 

I suspect if someone gets cams done by Delta, they can take care of the groove on those while they're at it.

 

Just some quick thoughts.

 

Doug

[Mugs]

The tensioner replace only if seeping oil out the top. I repin it gently with a prybar while its still mounted to the engine. Do not use a vise.

 

 

Why don't you use a vise I have use one in the past and just went super micro slow with it, and allowed about a second delay between each micro turn, this seem to work ok and never had a problem. Is this a big no, no for subys, or will going super slow still be ok?

[robm]

I see Rock Auto has Redi-sleeves for the EA-82, as well. $24 each isn't cheap, but cheaper than a new engine or crank.

 

Good to know. Thanks!

[Snowman]

Why don't you use a vise I have use one in the past and just went super micro slow with it, and allowed about a second delay between each micro turn, this seem to work ok and never had a problem. Is this a big no, no for subys, or will going super slow still be ok?

 

I've done a bunch of the horizontal tensioners in a vice with no trouble. Like you said, just really really slowly. What I've been told is that keeping the tensioner oriented as it is in the car while compressing is the critical part. Keep the horizontal ones horizontal, keep the vertical ones vertical, otherwise they will be damaged.

 

That seal prying tool looks quite handy. I need to try that. Currently, I have a heavy pick that is bent at the end so I can get it in and pull the seal out from the back side by grabbing onto the pick with some channellocks and prying the channellocks against the end of the cam shaft. Looks like the tool does the same thing, but easier and with less risk.

[Mugs]

Ok so now that the dust has settled, I can get around to posting the results for the week. First off thank you to everyone that responded. Since I am the now and new self proclaimed suby tech and also taking on side jobs with the hope of maybe opening my own shop here in a few years you will be "seeing" a lot more of me.

 

Everybody and their mother had a speedy sleeve for the cam on a 01 OBW 2.5 SOHC but not the crank, which is the one I nicked. We had to order one from Cali overnight. It is a SKF part number 99121 can't remember the cost, but is was not cheap. I had to mic the crank and give them the specs and they sent the apropriate sleeve. I had to shave off about a half inch from the width. Did this by using a gasket remover pad and die grinder in a vise. I just kept going at it untill the mic spec came within toloerance. I then put some ultra grey around the inside to keep the oil from seeping betweem the two and put everything back together, and let the car run for about an hour...no leeky

 

The local parts store (carquest) across the street from our shop had that E-Bay lysle seal puller for 18 bucks so I bought, looks like it should work out well in the next situation where I have to pull a seal like that.

 

The Snap On seal puller (set) worked well for this application (I did not have the lysle yet) but keep in mind the seal had only been in for about 5 days since I did the job. I used the stubby contoured tip one (SGSR3) and it popped right out. These are supposed to me a non maring material so we will see.

 

Any way all is well in Doug's suby world right now, and hopfeully my little niche that I have finally discoverd (in other words I finally found a car that I enjoy working on and understand, and don't cringe when they come through the door. Plus the boss is giving them all to me since I told him that all I want to work on is suby's.) will pay off if the Lord sees fit for me to be doing this as a carreer and not teaching college. Again thanks to all for your help. And I look forward to becoming a full participant in this forum...provided I can find a way to not work 70 hours a week