lsd? for eabox?

[zukiru]

I have to pull my 2wd five speed apart to fix a leak and a bearing...

 

any LSDs that might fit in the front?

 

did a little searching, but not much so flame away:Flame:

[Phizinza]

I'm pretty sure that EA82 manual 2wd and 4wd use the same front diff. And as we know EA82 4wd and EJ front diffs are the same.

 

But this would need to be confirmed, as I have only looked at the outside of the 2wd boxes not inside.

[zukiru]

but what has a front LSD?? anything?

 

I'd pay a decent price for such a thing

[Psyko]

Check out this thread:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=49241

[idosubaru]

yeah, drew they are out there and available for the automatic and manual transmissions. that thread linked above is a great read.

 

you're talking $300-$600 for the part plus installation. you'll also want to decide what kind you want - clutch type, viscous or other. VLSD's are virtually useless for offroad and nasty traction.

 

i looked into this, the reason i didn't go for it though is because i never got a warm fuzzy about the reliability of them. i did some searching and found them failing. of course i don't know if that's from abuse, poor installation, that's just what i found or what, but i wasn't about to dump that kind of effort into something less reliable. particularly something that tricky to replace.

[zukiru]

^^I see what you're saying.

 

when all you got is the front wheels though, you wanna make them grab.

 

300-600?

 

maybe not, lol.

 

 

 

 

more like a grand to 1400////

Edited December 4, 2008 by zukiru

[idosubaru]

300-600?

$450 was about the going rate.

 

i guess you know, but messing with the front diff is nothing to take lightly either. there are preloads, back lash, bearings, and measurements to be set. a little off and things wear out very quickly. someone more knowledgeable can help.

[zukiru]

$450 was about the going rate.

 

i guess you know, but messing with the front diff is nothing to take lightly either. there are preloads, back lash, bearings, and measurements to be set. a little off and things wear out very quickly. someone more knowledgeable can help.

 

 

 

true, but I have to crack the case anyway and will be dealing with the internals already....

 

I am way too cheap to have a shop do it....

200 bucks for just the labor... nah I'll work for free thanks.

 

on that note for 450 i'll buy 2 ej22s or something lol

[hatchsub]

Also something to note is if it is a clutch type wont the friction material wear off and get mixed into the gear oil making everything wear out quicker? Maybe im way off on my thinking cause i have though the same thing about getting a LSD for my EA81. I think ill just stick with the one wheel peels in the rain and snow though.

[Numbchux]

yea, pretty much your only option is aftermarket (there were a handful of jdm 5MTs with a factory front LSD....but good luck getting your hands on one!). cheap ones start at 500 or so, good ones cost more like 1500 or more.....

[nipper]

Also something to note is if it is a clutch type wont the friction material wear off and get mixed into the gear oil making everything wear out quicker? Maybe im way off on my thinking cause i have though the same thing about getting a LSD for my EA81. I think ill just stick with the one wheel peels in the rain and snow though.

 

Its a viscous coupling. Wet clutch types have been around since the 1940's and clutch material is not an issue. Thats why one should change thier diff fluid every so often.

 

nipper

[idosubaru]

Also something to note is if it is a clutch type wont the friction material wear off and get mixed into the gear oil making everything wear out quicker?

really? anyone else got follow up on that?

[nipper]

really? anyone else got follow up on that?

 

Clutch based fron LSD's can be very grabby. Usually they are torsen or viscous.

 

But now im thinking maybe LSD on front and rear.

 

Dear Santa.

[idosubaru]

Wet clutch types have been around since the 1940's and clutch material is not an issue. Thats why one should change thier diff fluid every so often.

we posted at the same time, this is what i was looking for. i was figuring that wouldn't make sense and the clutch type LSD is the only one i'd consider. if the trans ever needs to come out or i somehow have lots of free time (yeah right) i'm down with this.

[hatchsub]

Thats why there was a ? mark. Not sure if i was right or not. Just what i thought might be right.

[Gloyale]

VLSD's are virtually useless for offroad and nasty traction.

 

i

 

I completely disagree. Their only real weakness is perhaps very slow speed rock crawking. Otherwise the VLSD works fabulous for mud, snow, ice, hillclimbs etc. To my mind way more reliable than clutch type. No real wear items. And when they wear, they ussually get tighter, not looser.

[idosubaru]

I completely disagree.

cool, i'd like to hear more.

 

i haven't had tons of experience, but have owned both. i do know that i've encountered times in really slushy, snow, and mud that the beginning of slip causes rutting...which usually is bad even for 4WD, particularly with ground clearance/compacting issues. and others i've talked to seem to say the VLSD is the weakest of options for offroad in front, rear, and center diff configs.

 

how quickly do the VLSD's provide traction?

 

i guess i'm also relying on something unrelated. the center diff locking soobs are way better in my oppinion than than VLSD center manuals of the EJ's. so my intuition tells me the same holds true for clutch type (instant traction) verses VLSD (delayed traction). but i realize now maybe that's a flawed analogy.

[Gloyale]

so my intuition tells me the same holds true for clutch type (instant traction) verses VLSD (delayed traction). but i realize now maybe that's a flawed analogy.

 

 

Yeah, I think you and others have it backwards.

 

A viscous coupler ALWAYS has a certain amount of *bind* in it's clutches, but not so much that a turn can't overcome it. But say in a muddy situation, the *stick* between the 2 sides helps get BOTH wheels spinning equally through the slop. As differences in wheel speed increase, heat causes even more binding, but there was some binding from the start.

 

In contrast, the clutch type truely requires some extra spin on one side to generate side force to clamp the plates. When they work properly, the may have a slight advantage for crawling because once they do lock, it's a real lock, it's notas gradual.

 

I'd take a VLSD for mud or snow in a long term driver. Clutch for a purist, trailer to the rocks crawler that doesn't see much highway.

[idosubaru]

okay, i didn't realize the VLSD always had some traction...wonder what that means in snow/mud driving? are both wheels spinning together/getting the same traction/power/whatever is important in snow covered roads?

 

the explanation of clutch type (thinking the LSD EA series stuff): you said they require some slippage to generate clutch force and "lock them". everyone else has always said that they are "locked" until that force is exceeded by binding. and just by feel/watching, that seems to be how they work in use. that's why you can spin one wheel and the other turns the same way. and i've also heard that force is adjustable based on shims and such and i thought the FSM even had a spec to test that function.

 

a VLSD - if you spin one wheel, does the other spin the same way?

 

a semi-related question. i've always wondered why the XT6 is far better in snow than any EJ vehicle i've driven (mid-late 90's impreza's and legacy's). this is true of the auto and manual with the same wheels/tires. i live in very steep terrain with snow covered/unplowed roads and nasty switch backs (very steep and S shaped). i've had EJ vehicles not make it up that hill. my XT6 i don't even think about it. i've never had to turn around in my XT6 on that stretch. again - same exact wheels/tires. for the manual the center diff lock probably just can't be touched, but for the auto's i don't understand that. and i haven't even installed my rear LSD in my auto XT6 since moving out here, so that's just an open rear.

 

pardon the tangent....i wish my EJ stuff that my wife drives was as good in the snow. she even jokes about the XT6 being a machine. we're getting a 2000+ legacy soon, interested to see how that does, already planning on getting a rear VLSD for it since those are readily available.

[idosubaru]

rear LSD stuff from the internet:

 

Clutch type Subaru EA LSD's: "These LSDs have an assortment of friction disks and shims inside, arranged so that the limited slip typically has a factory breakaway setting of 45 ft-pounds" .

 

VLSD Subaru: "The downside is that these units don't act like a limited slip until one wheel actually starts slipping (i.e., they don't prevent slippage), which means the VLSD action often kicks in after you've already exited the corner"

[Numbchux]

i guess i'm also relying on something unrelated. the center diff locking soobs are way better in my oppinion than than VLSD center manuals of the EJ's. so my intuition tells me the same holds true for clutch type (instant traction) verses VLSD (delayed traction). but i realize now maybe that's a flawed analogy.

 

I beg to differ. as the locking one really induces understeer except after a massive flick and lots of throttle. whereas the VLSD center does encourage the back tires to slide, but allows enough slip so the front tires can still grip to turn.

 

 

and ESPECIALLY on dry pavement, where the EA setup would have to be totally unlocked....even with really good tires, accelerating out of a corner = one front wheel spinning uncontrollably.

[idosubaru]

I beg to differ. as the locking one really induces understeer except after a massive flick and lots of throttle. whereas the VLSD center does encourage the back tires to slide, but allows enough slip so the front tires can still grip to turn.

 

 

and ESPECIALLY on dry pavement,

i mean snow covered mountain roads, that is what i encounter in daily driving. the XT6 seems noticeably better. wonder if there's a way to test "which is better"? i'll take my XT6 any day on the roads i have to drive. wonder what others think?

 

why do the datsun racer guys seem to prefer the clutch types for traction?

[presslab]

The VLSD uses a non-newtonian fluid, sealed inside the diff. This fluid changes its viscosity based on the shear stress. The two sides of the diff have plates with little burrs on them; when the difference between the two sides is great enough, the shearing action of the burrs in the fluid causes the viscosity to change and become thick, effectively locking the plates together.

 

I would guess that a tire would slip one revolution or so before the VLSD locked.

 

The clutch type LSD on the other hand uses the propeller shaft torque to change the pressure on the clutch pack. So under heavy throttle the clutch binds up.

 

In my opinion the clutch LSD is better for street, VLSD better for mild off-road and some kind of locker is best for rock crawling.

[idosubaru]

the center VLSD and rear VLSD's, do they function the same?

 

wonder how we could "play" with this on the bench to test it out? maybe this needs a new thread, this is interesting.

 

with the car in the air does anyone know if you spin one tire, what does the other one do?

[hatchsub]

 

I would guess that a tire would slip one revolution or so before the VLSD locked.

 

.

 

And you would be right. A friend of mine had a VLSD in his Merkur and he would do a burnout the right tire would start spinning, and then a few seconds later the left would start as well. Clutch types are more instantaneous. He blew his diff though so now hes got an Eaton posi in it.