just venting about my hatch - pics added

[mountaingoatgruff]

after countless hours and more money than i care to count, my SPFI hatch has failed smog four times. the third time it failed i spent $200 to replace the y-pipe/front cat and $90 on an oem O2 sensor. i told myself that if that didn't fix it i would tear the whole system and EA81 out and drop an EJ22 in there. well, another $300 later it failed again. the numbers:

 

15mph test:

CO2: 15.4%

02: 0.0%

HC: max 127ppm, measured 35ppm

CO: max 0.79%, measured 0.02%

NO: max 825ppm, measured 820ppm

 

25mph test:

CO2: 15.2%

O2: 0.1%

HC: max 101ppm, measured 16ppm

CO: max 0.68%, measured 0.01%

NO: max 764ppm, measured 1558ppm

 

everything is beautiful but the NO, and i've searched high and low for a cause. i can't find a vac leak, tried shorter (cooler) plugs, timing is dead on, and literally everything is either brand new, recently rebuilt or tested to be working properly. most of the replacement parts are oem, too.

 

the car runs great, stronger than ever, gets an easy 30mpg and that's the part that adds injury to insult.

 

i'm at a loss here and i don't want to continue dumping money into it. i'm still open to suggestions if any of you guys have ideas, but i've got the parts to put the 2.2 in there so if i can't get it figured out soon that's what i'm going to do.

Edited December 7, 2008 by mountaingoatgruff

[TheYeti]

Man, I don't know. That is a bummer...

 

Get out of California? :-\

[mountaingoatgruff]

Man, I don't know. That is a bummer...

 

Get out of California? :-\

 

i was planning on moving to co until i got laid off recently and with the recession, i'm having a nightmare of a time finding work. another of the reasons why i can't keep dumping money into this thing.

 

i have the ej, adaper plate, clutch setup and trans for d/r 5speed swap, wiring harness, aftermarket fan for front-mount on rad, ej y-pipe/O2's/cats (stuff was meant for my brat, but that's not gonna happen anytime soon) and i'm trying to figure out how much more i'll need to get the swap done. i know i'll need driveshaft and exhaust work, rad hoses, engine tune-up parts and fluids. i've also left jerry hanging on getting one of his x-member kits for a while now. at least the car already has a fuel injection pump...

 

i'm wondering if i can toss the ej in there and wait on swapping the d/r 5. my d/r 4speed is pretty shot - grinds into 2nd, pops out of 4th and the front diff sounds pretty nasty untill it warms up. i wonder how long it would take the ej to squeeze the rest of it's life out of it.

[GeneralDisorder]

Only really two things that will affect NOx emissions - lean mixture, or malfunctioning EGR.

 

The EGR should open around 1/16" to 1/8" under about 6 inHg of vacuum for most vehicles.

 

I would test it, check for proper operation, and then probably bypass the EGR control solenoid to take the ECU out of the equation durring the next test.

 

GD

[mountaingoatgruff]

Only really two things that will affect NOx emissions - lean mixture, or malfunctioning EGR.

 

The EGR should open around 1/16" to 1/8" under about 6 inHg of vacuum for most vehicles.

 

I would test it, check for proper operation, and then probably bypass the EGR control solenoid to take the ECU out of the equation durring the next test.

 

GD

 

as far as running lean, i'm not sure how i'd test for that short of installing an air/fuel mix system. it has plenty of power and gets an average of 28-32mpg, depending on how/where i drive. my dad said before i replaced the cat that it smelled a tad rich as i pulled into his driveway after driving across town but the new cat cleaned it up noticeably.

 

i went over the book the ref had and it said i needed 8inches of vac. i threw a vac gauge on it and it's got over 10inches off idle. the diaphragm of the egr valve itself opens an easy 1/8" and it's brand new. the passages in both the head and the manifold were cleaned thoroughly and blasted with compressed air before assembly. the first pipe i had (between head and manifold) was crushed a bit because the tweeker that pulled the parts for the jy i got the stuff from did a crappy job so i got another one from a self-service yard, cleaned with chemdip and then degreaser, blasted with compressed air and installed carefully. i've checked the egr's operation multiple times as have my dad (mechanic for 25+ years) and the smog ref and none of us have seen it fail to open since i replaced the solenoid and valve. the only egr system "malfunction" i have noticed is that the ecu doesn't wait to open it until the engine is warm. i can start it up dead cold at 50deg outside temp, run around to the engine bay, blip the throttle and it opens like normal, which i think is part of why it runs crappy cold. the solenoid isn't stuck open, i've lost count of how many times i've tested it and verified that the ecu is indeed sending the signal with the engine dead cold. i've gone out first thing on a cold morning, put the ignition in run without starting and the ecu is sending 12V to the solenoid. also, its like that with both of the ecu's i have, a black 89 and a silver 92.

 

if i were confident that bypassing the solenoid would fix it, i would be willing to try that but its $40 each time i take it in, i have to schedule 2 weeks in advance and i can't even take it in for a "pre-test" because my paperwork is plastered with "DO NOT TEST OR ISSUE CERTIFICATE OF COMPLIANCE, REFER TO B.A.R. REFEREE." my regular smog guy even asked about it last week when i brought my wife's impreza in and needless to say, he was baffled.

 

sorry for typing a novel but if you or anyone else can figure this thing out in the details that's a lot cheaper than dropping the ej in there. i'm gonna go ahead and bypass the solenoid just to see what happens in my driveway. i doubt i would notice if it changes anything since everything seems fine by each method of testing available to me but i'll update when i've done it.

 

thanks

nate

[Gloyale]

Do they check the timing when they test? How about the gasoline in it?

 

If not, you could try retartding it slightly, running a cooler cylinder temp.

 

Also could try a gallon of xylene mixed with a few gallons of premium.

 

Also, would it be possible to enlarge the EGR passages in the Intake? It may be that the passages designed in the 80's weren't designed with enough flow to meet the newer more stringent requirements.

[mountaingoatgruff]

Do they check the timing when they test? How about the gasoline in it?

 

If not, you could try retartding it slightly, running a cooler cylinder temp.

 

Also could try a gallon of xylene mixed with a few gallons of premium.

 

Also, would it be possible to enlarge the EGR passages in the Intake? It may be that the passages designed in the 80's weren't designed with enough flow to meet the newer more stringent requirements.

 

they do check the timing each test and they allow 2deg's of tolerance so i've been setting it at 18deg when i go in to test.

 

they don't check the gas but i tried an additive my dad suggested this last time, coleman liquid camp fuel. he was sure it'd do the trick. where would one find xylene?

 

the egr passages don't look to be much different in size than those of ej engines, at least not proportionally. i'm not sure i'm interested in going through that kinda work at this point.

 

i'm trying to come up with a good estimate of how much it'd cost me to ej it. biggest hurdle is the added cost of the 5speed swap, but it'd be pointless to ej it then be dead in the water with a blown up 4speed. if i'd have known i was going to have to go through this i'd have dropped an obd2 ej22 in there to begin with...for as much as i've spent on this spfi i could have been done with the ej and 5speed months ago!!

[4x4_Welder]

Swap out to a 175º or 180º t-stat, and wire the fan to run all the time.

 

You also seem to have enough room on the HC reading to give about 1/2-3/4 turn on the idle mix screw. CO and CO2 say you've got a pretty decent burn, that CO2 should be a little higher, though, maybe about 18%, but not something to worry about.

[mountaingoatgruff]

Swap out to a 175º or 180º t-stat, and wire the fan to run all the time.

 

You also seem to have enough room on the HC reading to give about 1/2-3/4 turn on the idle mix screw. CO and CO2 say you've got a pretty decent burn, that CO2 should be a little higher, though, maybe about 18%, but not something to worry about.

 

it has an oem t-stat, would that be a 190/195?

 

when i pulled the a/c system out i wired the second fan to a relay controlled by a switch on the dash and i make sure to flip it on every time.

 

i don't think my throttle body has an idle mix screw, the EA81 has been retrofitted to SPFI.

[crockettbrat]

Not sure if this is the answer or not, but my ea81 also wouldn't pass smog at first. I swapped in an ej and ripped into my ea with my kid. When we took it apart I noticed that the reeds on my air suction valve were broken on both sides. Supposedly according to haynes manual only 82-83 years had this, but my 84 brat did too. Of course I doubt it was the original engine.

 

If you have a haynes manual check out page 64 for a picture of the air suction system and page 140 for the way to test the system. The manual only shows this thing on one side, but my engine had it on both sides. I remember thinking when I took the engine apart that the broken reeds might have been my problem passing smog.

 

Good luck.

 

Daniel

[mountaingoatgruff]

i removed the entire air suction system when i installed the spfi system. the hatch is supposed to smog to the requirements of a 92 loyale, which has no air suction system.

 

do ea82's run cleaner or something?!?

[mountaingoatgruff]

lest anyone should insist my passages are clogged:

 

 

this is what it looked like before i removed the final couple a/c parts late this last summer (note the bird's nest of a/c wiring by the pass strut tower and the a/c compressor bracket):

 

 

my ea81 with the rebuilt heads, almost ready to go back in (that's a polyhead 318 in the upper left corner):

 

[mountaingoatgruff]

i was originally going to go with this blue theme but i didn't like it as much as i thought i would and i ended up going with black:

 

 

when i was replacing the heads, of course:

 

 

and some gratuitous hatch backside:

 

[roadsubiedog]

after countless hours and more money than i care to count, my SPFI hatch has failed smog four times. the third time it failed i spent $200 to replace the y-pipe/front cat and $90 on an oem O2 sensor. i told myself that if that didn't fix it i would tear the whole system and EA81 out and drop an EJ22 in there. well, another $300 later it failed again. the numbers:

 

15mph test:

CO2: 15.4%

02: 0.0%

HC: max 127ppm, measured 35ppm

CO: max 0.79%, measured 0.02%

NO: max 825ppm, measured 820ppm

 

25mph test:

CO2: 15.2%

O2: 0.1%

HC: max 101ppm, measured 16ppm

CO: max 0.68%, measured 0.01%

NO: max 764ppm, measured 1558ppm

 

everything is beautiful but the NO, and i've searched high and low for a cause. i can't find a vac leak, tried shorter (cooler) plugs, timing is dead on, and literally everything is either brand new, recently rebuilt or tested to be working properly. most of the replacement parts are oem, too.

 

the car runs great, stronger than ever, gets an easy 30mpg and that's the part that adds injury to insult.

 

i'm at a loss here and i don't want to continue dumping money into it. i'm still open to suggestions if any of you guys have ideas, but i've got the parts to put the 2.2 in there so if i can't get it figured out soon that's what i'm going to do.

 

 

I've been rooting around old threads on smog problems bc my 84gl wagon is too high on the co2 .

 

I'm burning out the old gas, put a new fuel filter on and am gonna replace the Oxygen sensor. Also , I think it is running too rich but don't know how to lean it out.

 

I thought , also , that you would want to run hotter plugs. Why run the fan and cooler plugs?

 

Just wondering if you ever fixed your problem. BTW I used to work for Wallace Transport in Planada and they used to have a yard in Turlock. If you have a CDL they will hire you.

[Txakura]

wouln't methanol cut the emissions? like if you ran down to the last quarter tank and put a gallon of methanol in? can't see where white gas would help, only make it worse

[Dj0rk]

I've been rooting around old threads on smog problems bc my 84gl wagon is too high on the co2 .

 

I'm burning out the old gas, put a new fuel filter on and am gonna replace the Oxygen sensor. Also , I think it is running too rich but don't know how to lean it out.

 

I thought , also , that you would want to run hotter plugs. Why run the fan and cooler plugs?

 

Just wondering if you ever fixed your problem. BTW I used to work for Wallace Transport in Planada and they used to have a yard in Turlock. If you have a CDL they will hire you.

 

I used to have this same problem in my 88 RX-7 (Granted, it was a Rotary). The trick for me was to put in new plugs, change the air filter, get an oil change and go right to the smog test. Never failed.

 

I tested my theory when I went to Jiffy Lube to just do a smog, I failed hardcore (Forgot the numbers, it was a few years and kids ago). Pulled out of the bay, went around and had them change the oil. Paid for the oil change and did the smog test again (Same day, same shop) Passed with flying colors.

 

I don't know if it was a mixture of new oil being burnt (13B's inject oil into the rotor housing to lube the apex seals) but it worked every time.

 

Just a thought.