Stupid cost cutting Subaru crap

[Phizinza]

<rant>

Why do companies feel the need to save 10% of the cost of building a car and in doing so screw over all the quality until your left with metal that just falls apart like sandstone.

I remember now why I got rid of my last Subaru, and why I was looking at better cars. But no, some stupid part of me thought it would be a good idea to build a Subaru again.

When I replaced the headgasket on my '79 Mercedes all alloy V8 the quality of the alloy was incredible. In the 29 years of being subjected to oil, petrol, water, heat and all the other elements an engine has to put up with it polished up like new, no corrosion in either the head or the block and when I accidentally dropped a hammer on the block not a dent to be seen. It seemed as strong as steel, yet lightweight. So why, 4 years later, couldn't Subaru cast their engines from something like this other then the chipboard they thought was perfect for the job.

 

I hate exhaust studs.

</rant>

[mountaingoatgruff]

i had to deal with this same issue on my 84 hatch. i ended up replacing the head since the stud had been repaired once before then wrenched sideways again and the metal was splitting around the opening. after comparing the direction of the metal distortion to the drag marks on the oil pan, it was apparent someone was dragging the engine on the pan and caught the stud on something. either way, the helicoil was skrewed. first time i started loosening up the exhaust fasteners on that side, the stud just fell out with the nut on it before i touched it!

 

it may be that 70's/80's german alloys were better than japanese alloys of the same timeframe (i'm no alchemist) but i don't know that this scenario is caused by the quality of the metal so much as what the metal is put through...i mean, is the head with the screwed up stud from the engine in the wagon in your avatar?

 

i'd recommend replacing the head if you can, once the original integrity of the metal is gone its hard to get it back.

[Phizinza]

Yes, the engine has been through a lot of hardship while I've had it. But the Merc was the same too. I'm only saying Subaru's alloy is crap because this is a very common problem I have read about and encounted many times with Subaru engine parts.

 

It isn't just this engine that I am working with atm either. To many times I have had trouble with stripped threads on Subaru engines.

 

Its a dual carb motor, if you can find me a replacement head, I would love to know!

 

Since I've had this motor I've repaired 3 of the 4 exhaust studs, one has been repaired twice. Another three times and now this one needs to be repaired again. The last one I got fixed I got it done by a good engine shop and they done a proper job. But that means $60 welding, $40 gaskets, and I have to take the head off when I'm almost ready to get the car out the shed... Oh well.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Phizinza

[nipper]

Yes how dare a part that has had a happy home since 1983 that sees extreem thermo cycling then has some fool with a wrnech dare to expect it turn balme the car for snapping.

 

hehehehehehe

 

Sorry no pity. Bolts rust, Exhaust studs go under extreeme stresses and get brittle. Exhaust studs break on all engines all the time, and some engines never. Also due to the placement of the studs, they get splashed with cold water when they are red hot.

 

Sorry but i dont think its anyones fault but age.

 

nipper

 

PS you need a light engine on a small block when the car is tiny and its infront of the front axle.

 

Just replace the stud. I've had it happen to me and never blamed the car before.

[Phizinza]

I've deliberately smashed a subaru head with all sorts of tools before. The alloy they used is far inferior to other makes and of German cars in particular such as the Mercedes I talked about.

It isn't age, when several older engines made of the "same" stuff (cast aluminum) are perfectly preserved with none of this issue in sight.

 

"Just replace the stud"? Hmm, its had that, then broken out, then a piece of alloy was welded in there, then that is broken out. I now have a 15mm round hole. I don't think I can simply just replace the stud. But its ok, I'll get it fixed and it will work again. Next time, I'm going to get a car that has been built to last longer then 10years though.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Phizinza

[zstalker]

not to dismiss your frustration with the lower quality of Subaru alloys, but you also have to consider the cost difference betweed the two cars when they were made. Of course the German engineered engine is going to hold up much better, the car cost many times as much.

We love these cars for what they are: affordable, rugged cars that are fairly easy to work on. The Mercedes is a finely built piece of German engineering... not at all the same market.

[Phizinza]

Yes, I know the Mercedes cost much more, but in reality it actually doesn't cost much more to use a better grade aluminum alloy while casting. And this would eliminate all the issues of stripped threads.

Funny thing now is, the Merc cost me $1250, and this Subaru is upto $810 (soon to be more with these repairs). So in present time I am much better off getting another Mercedes. I just missed being able to drive on our many dirt roads, being able to just drive off the road and go anywhere and being able to change an exhaust gasket without taking then engine and gearbox out of the car.

[justyj12]

Have you replace your exhaust header before using the dual cab engine. The compression ratio of dual cab engine is 11:1 and the original EA81 is 9.5:1. or may be 8.5:1. So the heads of the dual cab engine is thinner then the original engine heads. And the distance between "Y" shape exhaust bolts is different. And these will create stress on the bolts of the exhaust when heat or cool down. I have been using these for over 20 years and never have problem. Your header should be replace with the dual cab exhaust or modify one to fit.

 

Regards

Ken

[ihscout54]

Times change I guess Subaru is at the top in customer satisfaction, and Mercedes have been junk in America for some time. These little cars were not built like the older merz's. They were a little more modern (disposeable) by design. I had a '82 240d if it wouldnt have been so slow Ide still have it. It ran quite well and the interior was unbeliveable for its age/use I sold it at

210k. I think the way the doors closed impressed me the most!

That body style is famous world-wide for its amazing durability and long life. Proof that if automakers really wanted too (with what they know now) they could. But why? Isnt that what put Studebaker out of buisness?

[idosubaru]

yes, those head bolts suck, i hate them. i sometimes look at their condition before buying a vehicle!

 

if the alloy was "weak", then every single 20 year old subaru would have problems...but that's not even close to the case. those studs sometimes need repaired, they are often hard to get out, i've had to drill and tap a couple, but i've never had to remove a head. seems perfectly fine to me for cars that are making 200,000, 300,000 miles..what's that i kilometers - 400k or 500k? and a few decades, i think subaru is making a decent product. if there's a car out there having issues, that's more anecdotal than a trend.

 

subaru wasn't big in the 80's either, i was only 5 years old then and even i know that. frankly considering how small and under appreciated they were in the market i think they came out with a dang good product, and they are now reaping the rewards of that.

 

the type of alloy used by subaru seems like a good choice. properly taken care of, repaired, treated with anti seize they hold up just fine...well at least in the 20 or 30 subaru's i've owned. the ones i let sit or ignore...yeah they bite me, but that's my fault.

 

i understand what it takes to run a company and create a marketable product and making it bullet proof after 30 decades probably isn't on their agenda. they're doing a fairly decent job providing reliable and cost effective vehicles and the stats are showing it.

[Phizinza]

justyj12 > The EA81 dual carb heads have wider spaced studs then standard so you can't run standard Y pipe on it. It is a "custom" y-pipe, but there was aways slack around the studs.

What I heard is they are 9.5 to 1 compression ratio, and it is all gained in the pistons. You say that are 11 to 1??!?! And if the heads are thinner, how did they go about with the intake manifold lining up? Mine fits a standard manifold and dual carb with no problems.

 

 

Yes, I know they are pretty good for what they are. I was just pissed off that they aren't what they could be with little extra dough. I guess its not the companies fualt but the people how aren't willing to spend more to get quality.

 

If I owned this car, and this engine, from when it was new, it would be in much better shape because yes I would of used all those products such as antiseize on it to keep it new.

 

grossgray > The first stud I fixed I just drilled it out and put in a larger one. Then that stripped so I drilled it out and put in an insert, then that one broke out so I needed to take the head of to get it welded. This one I am having trouble with now stripped, then when I drilled it all the metal swarf that came out was brittle and chipped out, I tried cutting a thread in it but no luck so I took it to a local guy to weld up and he done a shotty job, so now I have a large hole where a stud needs to go. Going to have a look at it today and see if I can do it without welding.

[idosubaru]

you know what you're doing so i'm surprised you had the same bolts seize/cause problems 3 times. usually once i fix it, it never comes back to haunt me. stud might come out with the nut, but big deal.

 

i'd start antiseizing these things or getting everything just right the first time so you don't have to remove it 3 times. what exactly are you putting this thing through any way?!?!

 

if you're putting in various different bolts and such could that cause problems? i wonder if the different grade metals you're using for studs/bolts/nuts are causing issues? like those materials aren't a good fit for the application and cause a reaction, oxidation, expansions that are worse than the stock studs? i've seen it mentioned before in other applications.

 

if you remove this same part multiple times, might be good to find a better solution.

 

have you checked the newer heads? i'm sure processes have changed since then but i wonder if Subaru is using better stuff now that they're big time.

 

they probably did offer other casting options. usually the outsourced foundry will offer multiple options to choose from. but there's always engineers, designers, imaginary...i mean industrial engineers, marketing, manufacturing, assembling....it's a really dynamic process but you know that too.

[7point62fmj]

The old subaru slogan in the 80's was

 

"Cheap and built to stay that way."

 

You may of got the bad in of the stick on this one.

[Quidam]

The old subaru slogan in the 80's was

 

"Cheap and built to stay that way."

 

You may of got the bad in of the stick on this one.

 

Yea but, he's complaining because "Haraboji" ain't what he used to be.

 

Sincerely,

 

Doug

[Phizinza]

Part of the problem is, this engines been thru three different cars (because its a dual carb) and Its been in and out of those cars so many times for things like gearbox swaps, engine crossmember mods, exhaust upgrades, etc. Another part is a dodgy fix done by the first guy to start with. I think all this would of been averted if the quality of the alloy was better in the first place. But its up to me to either stay at it or go to a better quality product.

 

I'm not good at building something, and then leaving it that way. I always keep improving and building more. When I got my last Subaru to how I dreamed it to be, I got bored and sold it. The fun is in the building, not the owning for me.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

... The fun is in the building, not the owning for me.

 

I Agree that the Fun is in the Building, but Just the Half of the Fun, the Other Half is in "To Drive" Your Subies... They are not Statues!

Well... I Know that Mercedes are German & Expensive, While Subarus are Japanese and Not as Expensive -but Not too Cheap- But There`s Something to Consider: They are like "Water and Oil" Very Different, for example: You can Not Lift an 80`s Mercedes Sedan or Wagon and Put on it Big Fat Tires and go Wheelin` at the Mountains off Roading...

Do You Remember the Slogan That Subaru Used on the XT and XT6 Banners on 80`s Magazines? it Said:

"The Un-Mercedes Like"

I Have some Old "Car & Driver" Magazines Somewhere...

[erik litchy]

Yes, I know the Mercedes cost much more, but in reality it actually doesn't cost much more to use a better grade aluminum alloy while casting. And this would eliminate all the issues of stripped threads.

Funny thing now is, the Merc cost me $1250, and this Subaru is upto $810 (soon to be more with these repairs). So in present time I am much better off getting another Mercedes. I just missed being able to drive on our many dirt roads, being able to just drive off the road and go anywhere and being able to change an exhaust gasket without taking then engine and gearbox out of the car.

 

i work at an aluminum foundry, you are very correct. to make a nicer alloy is basically only pennies more. it HAD to boil down to what subaru spec'd on thier blueprints

[ihscout54]

Maybe cost was not the only factor here (though most likely the primary one). Maybe it was an availability issue, or a lack of knowledge issue (Chevy Vega engines...). Those Subaru blocks are pretty soft.

Just imagine what your modern aluminum block: plastic valve cover, plastic intake, sensor nightmare, etc will be like in 25 years.

[justyj12]

Yes, you are right. The compression ratio is 9.5 to 1, but I still thinking the problem lie on the Y pipe because if the aluminum head heat up to expand and cool down to contract freely, there were no force to stripe the head studs. Only after adding the Y pipe. Then something prevent the head & studs to expand or contract freely, the force was so great that when the stud is going somewhere but the head did not follow. And the result was, stripped head. If the stud is weaker then the head, then the stud will break. We know the old age people use the fire to heat the big rock and use water to cold the rock to break it. So the force of expansion and contraction is very large. Also if the rear of the Y pipe did not hang in the proper way. It may also cause a heavy load on the studs too.

From my experience, they just come loose but not having stripe problem.

[rpiereck]

Yea but, he's complaining because "Haraboji" ain't what he used to be.

 

Sincerely,

 

Doug

 

LOL, hey now, that's the nickname for my Loyale and I ain't complaining!!

[Phizinza]

I was talking to my dad about it today and we came up with something that may help, putting bellows flanges right up near the head, this will allow for all the movement it should ever need.

My new setup has the y-pipe mounted to the gearbox just below the diff solid, and then after the Y there is a bellows joint, then another rubber mount to the body. But if I can find some short enough flexy bellows joints then I'll weld them in.

I've put the broken aluminum piece with the helicoil in it have into the hole it fell out of using some JB weld, and with a screw going through the head from the side into the stud to hold it. When I pull the motor out next time for the rebuild I plan on giving it I'll get it welded up properly.

[RenaissanceMan]

Maybe cost was not the only factor here (though most likely the primary one). Maybe it was an availability issue, or a lack of knowledge issue (Chevy Vega engines...). Those Subaru blocks are pretty soft.

Just imagine what your modern aluminum block: plastic valve cover, plastic intake, sensor nightmare, etc will be like in 25 years.

 

I might agree with ihscout54...

lack of knowledge might be a huge part of it as well.

I've seen some older aluminum parts by mitsubishi, isuzu, and mazda and believe me, they were just as bad.

 

Russia is the worlds primary source of aluminum, and back when our beautiful subarus were being manufactured, Russia was covered by its Iron Curtain. After ww2 the United States became very involved in rebuilding japan. Perhaps we influenced their aluminum production or had some part in supplying it? If you think subaru didn't have the greatest alloys, have you spent some time looking at aluminum-cast american transmissions from that same era? Our casting technology was so bad we had tranmissions leaking THROUGH the aluminum because of porosity.

[idosubaru]

After ww2 the United States became very involved in rebuilding japan. Perhaps we influenced their aluminum production or had some part in supplying it?

this tidbit of history is causing major headaches right now. Japanese industry was mesmerized by the skills and thoughts of Richard Deming who was only hired by the US to do some post WWII census work for Japan. Industries bought him back and ate up everything he had to say about quality control (industrial engineering) and more. The US manufacturers have all but ignored it and made little if any steps to improve. American manufacturers have had it coming for a very long time. Poor leadership, poor engineering, inability to change...it's been brewing for decades and is now catching up to them. The economy didn't "cause" their crisis, just made it come faster and harder.

 

So yeah - there were significant changes in production methodology and quality control in Japan during that era and beyond. The quality control of the aluminum was certainly a part of that process. But given the overall record of the EA engines, they are fairly robust for their time and lack of market appeal.

[SubPar]

"Subaru. Inexpensive and built to stay that way."

[Phizinza]

Yeah, ihscout54 is most likely right. Sad, because I love these old cars.

 

I live in Australia and older American cars are rare here.