lostinthe202 Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 (edited) '96 OBW, 2.2L, 5spd, 193k I recently (3k ago) changed my clutch and a problem has developed in the last few days. I am having a hard time shifting, especially into first. When I push the clutch in (this is a cable clutch by the way) it feels as though I'm not able to push it in as far as it should go, like the last inch or so of travel has a lot of resistance and feels "spongy" like I'm at the end of the travel and I'm just stretching the cable. The pedal action felt like this from the get-go, and I poked my head under the steering wheel to look for anything amiss. This only thing I saw was that it looked like the stop (little rubber thing? Plastic thing?) had broken/fallen out and the pedal had nothing stopping it other then the end of travel of the PP. So I figured to just be careful not to press the pedal into that "spongy" range. The trans shifted fine at that time (better then it had in a while in fact, a non-broken clutch fork will do that eh?) so I didn't think much of it. Now it's tough to get in first, and it seems like that spongy section is maybe a bit bigger, like if I'm not in the spongy section just a bit, the kill switch for the starter doesn't get depressed and no start. I pulled the rubber boot off the cable and peeked inside as best I could. The TO bearing is right up against the PP and I can't see anything wrong, not that there is a lot of visibility. I did replace the clips with one from the dealer and as far as I know I put it back together correctly, that is I put the clips on the only way that it made sense to do so. Maybe I'm adjusting the cable incorrectly? I tightened the adjusting nut on the fork until all play was taken out of the fork, am I missing anything? Here's a list of parts changed and worked done, New: Pressure plate Disc TO - bearing Pilot bearing Clutch fork New clips for the TO bearing Rubber boot for clutch fork Resurfaced flywheel I changed the trans oil about 4 months ago with Valvoline 80w-90 I purchased all parts from the dealer and I turned the flywheel myself at work. I couldn't remove the dowel pins so I cut them off, resurfaced the flywheel taking off .04, then drilled/reamed and pressed in some new dowel pins made from 1018 rod. Any ideas of things to check? Thanks! Will- Edited December 19, 2008 by lostinthe202 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Well.. not sure about the whole spongy feeling part... but the symptom of not being able to get into 1st or reverse easily is a classic sign that the cable is too loose -- so even with the pedal fully depressed, it's not quite fully disengaging the clutch. I had one car that I had to retighten it once a month because the cable kept stretching. If you've already adjusted it till the clutch fork has no slack, that's kind of odd that it wouldn't disengage all the way -- have you checked exactly where it engages? If it engages right on the floor, it might be too loose like I said, but if it engages relatively high on the pedal stroke, it must be something else.... Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted December 16, 2008 Author Share Posted December 16, 2008 Thanks for the reply. Yes it engages at what I would say is the normal point, not right off the floor but near the top of the travel. It's like something is preventing the fork from moving as far as it should but I don't have a clue what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted December 17, 2008 Author Share Posted December 17, 2008 I poked around under the hood again to see if anything was amiss. The only thing I could see that would possibly cause what I'm experiencing is the rubber boot around the cable on the stretch between the clutch fork and the hanger for the cable was torn and not on seated on the cable housing so, thinking maybe it was bunching up and not letting the cable move the way it should, I replaced the cable. The clutch shifted fine for three 1st gear shifts then went back to doing what it was doing before. On top of that, I've stared to feel a lurching when stopped with the car in first and clutch in, like the clutch disc is grabbing slightly. Can anyone think of ANYTHING that would prevent the clutch from opening up all the way, either something in the bellhousing or in the cable system? These are the part numbers shipped to me by Subaru for my '96 OBW 2.2L PP - 30210AA600 Disc - 30102AA851 TO - 30502AA051 Any of these incorrect parts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 (edited) You seem to know what you're doing so I offer this only in case it slipped your mind. I changed my clutch recently and have a hard time trying to figure out what could be wrong with your's. My opinion is that if it were something under the bell housing, like an excessively machined flywheel outer crown, it would never be shifting right. The fact that you had three good first gear shifts after replacing the cable seems to point to something else like the cable or cable system. The first thing I would do is ask someone to push in the clutch pedal and mesure the fork lever full stroke. I should be one inch measured at the tip. You also should have around 1/8 of an inch of freeplay at the fork and 3/8 at the pedal. If that is correct, then I guess you will have to open things up all over again. Good luck! Edited December 17, 2008 by frag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted December 17, 2008 Author Share Posted December 17, 2008 Thanks Frag. On the flywheel, I only took off .040 just enough to take off the glazing. I did read up on flywheel stuff and made sure to true it up real good before taking any material, I machined the whole surface then checked for run-out afterwards and had less then .001 all the way around. I didn't figure I could get it any better then that. Thanks for the specs on fork travel and freeplay, I will check that out when I get home. I was all ready to assume a coincidence that my trans decided to show its age shortly after this clutch job, it does have 193k on it, but then that thing happened this morning with the "lurching" sensation and that points again to a lack of full engagement so now I back to square one. I did do a poop load of reading about difficult trans cases and I figure to give that "uncle scotty's coctail" thing a try. but I'll wait until I've exhausted the exterior release mechanism first. Will- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 OK, so I just checked the fork travel and freeplay. I had about 1.875- 1.250 of fork travel, no fork free play and no pedal freeplay. I adjusted for 1" of travel and about 1/8th of fork freeplay but the pedal has a spring keeping it up so I'm not sure how I'm supposed to measure the freeplay there. These are not encouraging results. Even though my values are not correct, they are off in the wrong direction for clutch disengagement issues right? By that I mean, if I had less then 1" of travel I would be experiencing the issues that I am experiencing. But having too much travel means over extending the PP or stretching the cable but nothing to do with shifting problems right? Guess I'll read up more on manual trans issues, maybe my trans is just tired. It did have bearing noise when I bought it at 120k, but it always shifted well right up until the clutch fork broke. I did have some tight shifting issues a few months back, but they went away with a fluid change so I didn't think much of it. All the silence I'm getting on this post is eerie, like everyone is reading this thinking, "that poor soul did x,y, and z and now his tranny is shot" but nobody wants to say anything. Or maybe they're just being silent out of respect for the dead Thanks again for your help! Will- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman18 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Did you drive it again to test it after you just adjusted it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 OK, so I just checked the fork travel and freeplay. I had about 1.875- 1.250 of fork travel, no fork free play and no pedal freeplay. I adjusted for 1" of travel and about 1/8th of fork freeplay but the pedal has a spring keeping it up so I'm not sure how I'm supposed to measure the freeplay there. These are not encouraging results. Even though my values are not correct, they are off in the wrong direction for clutch disengagement issues right? By that I mean, if I had less then 1" of travel I would be experiencing the issues that I am experiencing. But having too much travel means over extending the PP or stretching the cable but nothing to do with shifting problems right? Guess I'll read up more on manual trans issues, maybe my trans is just tired. It did have bearing noise when I bought it at 120k, but it always shifted well right up until the clutch fork broke. I did have some tight shifting issues a few months back, but they went away with a fluid change so I didn't think much of it. All the silence I'm getting on this post is eerie, like everyone is reading this thinking, "that poor soul did x,y, and z and now his tranny is shot" but nobody wants to say anything. Or maybe they're just being silent out of respect for the dead Thanks again for your help! Will- If you have no fork free play nor pedal free play that explains why you have so much fork travel. With the fork values adjusted, you mesure the pedal free play by measuring the travel between initial movement of the pedal against the return spring up to the point where you begin to feel the resistance of the clutch itself. It's much more easy to feel this if you push the clutch pedal with your hand. Like the other poster said: did you test the clutch operation after putting the clutch fork movements to spec? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 The tranny isn't shot. (yet) First and reverse use very different means of engageing, so if it's stiff going into first, you're burning the synchro because the input shaft is still being spun, and if it grinds going into reverse the reverse idler is getting chewed because you're meshing it into spinning gears. It will do both if the input shaft is still being spun when the clutch is disengaged. Two things isolate the input shaft (which you want to be stationary) from the spinning flywheel. The clutch disk, and the pilot bearing. If you fubar'd the pilot bearing on installation, it could be dragging and forcing the input shaft to keep spinning. Notice any squeeling noises with the pedal pushed in and the transmission in gear with the engine running? If you dropped the clutch disk, it could be expaned on one edge and be dragging on the flywheel. if the disk is warped, it could be dragging on the flywheel. If the splines on the input shaft and the clutch disk are rusty, burred, or not greased, they can hold the disk against the flywheel. Or, the pressure plate is not being pushed far enough to disengage. You already checked the cable, but what can happen is the clutch fork begins to wear through on it's pivot and then splits over the pivot. The pedal gets squishy untill the pivot punches through the fork and then the clutch can't disengage at all and the pedal goes to the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrand Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 check to see if the fork is shot-mine blew out at the "ball" indent taht fits on t he ball stud....gave syptomsl ike no travel in fork...was able to carefully see in hole for rubber boot....unfort it was nt too long after I had replced the clutche so had to tear apart again...grrrr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 Bratman and Frag - Yes, sorry I forgot to mention, I did go for a test drive after the adjustment with no change other then the engagement point being a bit lower in the stroke. Gbrand and 91loyale - I sure hope it's not the clutch fork. The fork splitting at the pivot is what caused me to rip into the clutch in the first place. I replaced the fork with a brand new one from the dealer and took the pivot with me to work and polised the abrasions out of it left by the split fork. I didn't get it back to perfect surface or anything, but I did make sure there weren't any sharp edges. The pedal motion is really smooth, better then any clutch I've ever had and I put a good amount of grease in the cup before putting back on so I can't imagine it has split again after a measly three thousand miles?? 91Loyale- Thanks for the lessons in trans failure. I've done some motorcycle gear boxes and played second wrench on a transfercase, but I'm pretty new to the world of the insides of transmissions. To address some of your points, the trans went back in very smoothly so I don't think the pilot bearing got messed up and it is quiet. I turned my own centering tool so I know the tip was concentric to the clutch centering portion. The clutch disc came out of it's box and onto the engine with no free-falls to earth. I can't say what it went through before I brought it home, but it didn't look damaged in any way. I also did not check it for run-out. I did check the input shaft for burrs and rust/corrosion. I didn't take a dental pick to the splines or anything, but I did clean it off and put a light coat of grease on the splines and tip. I did not grease the clutch disc too as I didn't want to get too much grease in there to get thrown where it shouldn't. I test drove the car again this morning doing several back and forth's in my driveway. It shifted perfectly each time except once. The one time it didn't want to go into first, I tried to put in reverse instead (think of 91loyale here) and it went in perfectly. I should mention that I've not had any problems with reverse, ie no grinding and usually no resistance though sometimes a bit (nothing out of the ordinary from other cars) I thought that because the idle is up that I was getting false results so I drove it around the 'hood until it was up to operating temp and the idle was down to normal. I got more rough shifts, but again it's like 1 out of 3 will be stiff with the others being perfect. So two things come to mind. First, I don't believe I've mentioned that to get it into gear when it doesn't want to go I goose the gas a tad which eases the way into first. second, I didn't check the dimensions of the pivot stud before and after polishing it up, nor can I now say with certainty that it had any kind of washer when I put it back on. Say I forgot the washer and the pivot was thus something like .05 further back then normal, could this mess with how far the fork pushes the TO bearing? It seems to me it wouldn't since any extra distance would be taken up in the adjustment of the cable, but maybe I'm missing something there? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 So on the drive to work I paid very close attention and it seems that anytime I'm at a total stand still and the rpms have dropped all the way to idle, I can't get it in first without goosing the gas a hair, if the idle is up at all, like even just a few rpm it will slip into first with ease. Shifts will either be smooth or have a little chunk to them going into any gear be it 1st or 5th. hopefully I'll have a GL wagon soon to tool around in so I can take this off the road and figure out what's going on. Will- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 So on the drive to work I paid very close attention and it seems that anytime I'm at a total stand still and the rpms have dropped all the way to idle, I can't get it in first without goosing the gas a hair, if the idle is up at all, like even just a few rpm it will slip into first with ease. Shifts will either be smooth or have a little chunk to them going into any gear be it 1st or 5th. hopefully I'll have a GL wagon soon to tool around in so I can take this off the road and figure out what's going on. Will- This puts icing and even a cherry on top of this mystery cake. If clutch disk dragging was the culprit, upping the revs would worsen the problem not cure it!! Please report back when you've finally found what's up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 Bratman - Yes, both the PP and Flywheel were cleaned with acetone before installation and I had clean hands when I handled the disc. Frag - good to know, that makes sense as I think about it. Also, meant to say in that post that if I slip it into first while I'm rolling it will go in easily. Also if I double clutch it will go in easily. Hmm... only as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, if I am at a stand still with my foot OFF the brake with the car in first and clutch in, I can feel the clutch dragging a bit. When I rev the engine a hair it goes away. Say if the disc were slightly warped, and wanted to grab a tad wouldn't goosing the gas cause that tad bit of grab to be overcome allowing the fiction in the input shaft to slow it so the gear change can happen? So each gear has a synchro, is there something that would come into play with each gear change (bent fork?) that could be worn out/broken that would cause something like this, or have all my synchros been wearing evenly and it's just "that time". I would say that I use all the synchros pretty evenly as I live out in the sticks so if I'm going anywhere I'm in 5th gear. Also I don't know if this is important or not but I'll mention it. My wife drove the car a couple of days after the clutch job. I love her dearly but she has a... rough style of driving. She pretty much doesn't use the friction point at all she'll just dump the clutch while romping on the gas and the car jerks with each change. I think it sounds worse then it is, I have friends who drive the same way (as she does with our other car) and their clutches go for years. But since I'm grasping at straws here... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 So when I left work I was waiting to turn left at a traffic light. An opening came along and I gunned it in first to get through. I wasn't planning on shifting to second 'cause traffic was stopped on the road I was turning onto. I'm not exactly sure what happened because it happened so quickly, but I had accelerated to about 3k-3.5k, pushed in the clutch and pulled on the shifter wanting to go into neutral, the rpms dropped as I pushed in the clutch but then surged back up again, I felt a jerk, and the rpms dropped down to idle and I was in neutral. Either I let the clutch out before I pulled out of neutral, or maybe the disc caught for a sec (??). Either way, after that the car shifted normally all the way home with not a single stiff shift in the 2 hours of traffic (Holy squirrel turds I love DC) I sat through to get home. So maybe there was a booger on the input shaft that I missed that the disc was hung up on and the jerk knocked it off? I hate it when problems like this just vanish with no apparent reason because you never know when it's going to show up again. I'll be tearing the motor and trans out in a month or two anyway so when I do I'll split them and see what there is to see. Thanks much for those that offered advice. Hopefully you won't hear anything more from me on this matter. At least until I open the bell housing and punish the little gnome who's been messing with my head:) Will- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester2002s Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) I found this 5-year old thread while trying to solve my clutch problem. This poster had the same symptoms that I had, and mine resolved itself suddenly just like in his post. I had changed my clutch in my 2002 Forester 5MT. I changed the friction-disc, the pressure-plate, throw-out bearing with new clips, and the pilot-bearing. All new parts from Subaru. The engine went back in OK, and it fired up first time. So far, so good. But with the engine running in neutral, and the clutch-pedal to the floor, I couldn't change gears. When I tried reverse, the gears grinded. When I tried first, the synchromesh wouldn't let me in. There were no unusual noises from the clutch. It was as if the clutch was clamped firmly together. With the engine off, I could change into all gears. I left it overnight, then I checked and rechecked the clutch-pedal, the slave-cylinder, the clutch-fork. All seemed to be working OK. I asked myself: Could it be a broken clutch-fork? I had checked the fork visually, and had seen no problem with it. Could it have been the pilot-bearing seized? But I had installed a new Koyo pilot-bearing, and used the splined alignment tool to center the clutch-disc. I was on the point of pulling the engine, when I came across this post. So I tried starting the engine in first, then in reverse, each time allowing the car to lurch forward or back, and then immediately braking hard to stall the engine. After a while, I sensed that perhaps there was a slight improvement, so I went for a drive. My plan was to drive down to the mailbox in first gear. I started off, and out of habit, I changed into second gear: it worked! All gears worked! Reverse as well! Something that had been sticking, had now freed itself. If I hadn't read this post, I would have probably pulled the engine. So thanks to the OP! EDIT: Afterthought - If I've learnt anything from my experience, it is to do a trial-assembly of the friction-disc to the splined input-shaft of the transmission. Next time I'm doing a clutch job, I'll add that intermediate step of temporarily sliding the new friction-disc onto the splined-shaft, just to make sure that it moves freely, and that there is nothing to catch on. And only then will I assemble the clutch to the flywheel. Edited April 8, 2014 by forester2002s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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