My new 1986 XT won't start, help?

[derburger]

I'm having trouble starting my 1986 XT GL-10 (EA82T, MPFI) and I'm running out of options.

Backstory: I bought the car, it had been sitting for a while as a project car. It ran and drove fine, but I now think there's bad gas in the tank. It did make a 200 mile trip to school, but is now sitting in the lot and won't restart.

 

I replaced the plugs, wires, cap, rotor, fuel filter, air filter, charged battery, and I still have no start.

 

I found that the ECU was held on by 2 bolts, which it's supposed to be held on (and grounded?) by three. I found a nut to put on the assembly, and now the ECU is held on by all three bolts. Is this how the ECU is grounded?

 

I've checked and cleaned all grounds, cleaned the coolant temp sensor, etc. The car just cranks, it has caught a few times but dies shortly thereafter.

 

Now for the no start symptoms:

 

1. I have spark from the ignition coil, and spark from the wires. Is it possible to put on the disty cap wrong, or did I put the wires on wrong? I can take a picture of the wires.

 

2. When I cranked the car to try to start it, the motor caught a few times, but when It caught I stopped cranking and the motor died.

 

3. The gauge still shows over 1/2 tank of gas left. When I changed the fuel filter, the fuel that came out clear, then it looked like vegetable juice. I went to the gas station and got 2 gallons of gas in a can and put that in the tank, changed filter. Lines are pressurized, but still no start. So I'm dealing with old or rusty gas. I can't drain the tank in the school parking lot, I would need to get it started and drive home to drain the tank. At home I have all the lift/specialty tools I need, but I only brought basic hand tools to school...

 

4. The fuel pump works, pressurizes the lines, etc. Fuel is going to the injectors.

 

5. Maybe the rotor I have in the car is too short to make contact with the cap? Rockauto shows 2 sizes of rotors, one with a shorter neck, one with a longer neck. Is there a difference between the two? The rotor I pulled from the car looked the same as the one I put in. It has a shorter neck than this one.

 

Are there two different rotors and I bought the wrong one?

 

6. Ground issue? I cleaned all the grounds in the engine bay. I found that the ECU was held on by 2 bolts instead of 3. Maybe the ECU isn't grounded well?

 

7. Am I flooding the engine with gas with all the cranking, and that's why it won't start?

 

8. The ECU gives code 12, which is "starter switch off"

 

I don't know where to go from here. I've owned diesel MB's but no gas cars. Maybe the spark going to the wires is weak, maybe I put the wires on wrong, the 3/4th full tank is clogged, massive vacuum leak, rotor is bad, I don't know. I'll try spraying carb cleaner in the intake to see if it's getting spark. What should I try next?

Edited January 22, 2009 by derburger

[idosubaru]

reply on subaruxt.com

[subiemech85]

code 12 same as me

 

 

your timing is likely way off

 

with cap removed crank engine and make sure rotor turns nice, no skipping 22mm on the front crank bolt

 

remove dist., reset to initial base timing, marks aligned, and connect green check connector

 

there are 7 common grounds

A front left hood bumper

B above front right tow hook

C front right strut tower

D front left strut tower

E center under dash? relay bracket holds 4 relays

F under front right seat

G under trunk latch

 

also clean your engine ground and left rear defroster ground

 

the ECM does NOT care about having it's CASE GROUNDED

 

 

 

 

incase you can't tell, I don't like it when people claim that they clean all grounds when they forget some

 

my car "fixed" itself after I cleaned ALL grounds

 

I quit driving my '85 vw jetta diesel when it quit starting below 50*f

[derburger]

code 12 same as me

 

your timing is likely way off

 

with cap removed crank engine and make sure rotor turns nice, no skipping 22mm on the front crank bolt

 

remove dist., reset to initial base timing, marks aligned, and connect green check connector

 

Please bear with me, since the car I'm well versed in is a 30 year old MB diesel...

 

Ok, I'll check the rotor to see if it spins well. I'll remove the timing belt covers and look for 22 mm on the crank bolt?

 

Where is this green test connector? On my XT there are green connectors in the trunk that when connected flash ECU codes, at least I think that's what they do, they make a blinky light. Is the "test mode" connector in the wire bundle near the wiper motor in the engine bay?

 

I cleaned all grounds I could see in the engine bay... The engine ground, the one on a manifold bolt, both grounds on the shock towers. I'll try to find the other ones you mentioned.

 

So what would be the procedure be to set the base timing? I haven't found specifics searching and I don't think my chilton manual is that great. I would remove the distributor from the bolts on the bottom of it (with the key in START and green plugs connected?) and look for marks to line up under it? If that makes any sense.

[Skip]

For being a "Subie mech" he sure knows how to confuse people.

 

There is no reason your ignition timing is off unless

you removed/moved the distributor.

Which I do not believe you mentioned doing.

 

You cleaned the appropriote grounds.

 

The test connectors you mention are correct.

When setting or adjusting the ignition timing

the green connectors must be connected.

 

You need a timing light to set this.

IF you have changed it.

IF not ignor this.

You made it 200 miles !!!

The timing marks are on the back of the flywheel

seen through a small window

(may have a rubber plug on it)

on the pass side of the rear of the engine.

 

Connect the green connectors, connect the timing light

shoot at the opening and crank to start.

20 deg BTDC

 

The 22 mm he refers to is the size of the socket

used to turn the crankshaft bolt (most of us UN techs use a 7/8")

 

Have you checked for spark at the plugs?

Pull a plug reconnect the wire, lay it on the block or a good ground

and crank it - nice blue white spark?

 

If it is gas fouled the plug you pull will be wet with gas.

Try cleaning or replacing the plus

Edited January 22, 2009 by Skip

[idosubaru]

this might help - let's give everyone the code you're actually getting of "22" and see if that helps track down this issue. it's not a 12 - it's 22 i think?

 

+1 checking all those grounds and timing probably isn't your problem.

 

could be...but so could about 245 other things.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

...could be...but so could about 245 other things.

 

... ...

 

Well... I Believe one of 'em could be (as you wrote) Bad Gasoline...

 

or an Electrical False Contact on the Grounds.

 

Good Luck!

 

Kind Regards.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Loyale 2.7 Turbo

[derburger]

I was reading the codes wrong, the code I was getting was "22" Pressure or vacuum switches, or 21, seized mass airflow meter flap. The car did make a 200 mile highway trip fine, it had some stuttering under acceleration, it previously idled at 1200 RPM and needed a little gas on startup to stay running. I cleaned the idle air control and replaced the PCV valve with a subaru replacement.

 

When it was running, it got harder to start as the temps dropped... cranked and cranked before finally firing.

 

Where should I try to spray (a small amount of) carb cleaner, to see if the engine is getting spark?

 

I should also try to clean the MAF flaps before having to drain the gas tank. Any tips?

 

Again, could be anything. What would be the best way to drain the gas from the tank? From near the fuel pump under the car, or from the fuel filter hose in the engine bay? How about how to wire the pump to run so I can drain the bad gas? Thanks!

 

The car's MAF

[idosubaru]

nail those codes. the ECU is specifically telling you something is wrong. not starting there is like your buddy telling you his leg hurts and then asking the medics what you should look at on his arm.

 

shoot for definitive things first then move on to more extraneous stuff.

 

i like johnfmKY's idea of verifying spark at each cylinder too. very simple, only takes a few seconds.

 

of course anyway you can get your hands on a spare MAF, idle controller, coil, and other parts would be nice.

 

in college i essentially kept spare in my trunk of major items - MAF, Disty (crank sensor is in it), and alternator. hard to get stranded if you have the major stuff. i used the little underneath corner pockets of the XT for the spares.

 

easiest way to pump the gas:

from the engine bay - much more space, very simple, nothing in the way. pull hose prior to fuel filter.

 

*** there's a real simple way to 'power' the pump on to drain the gas. you should be able to connect the green connectors by the ECU. this puts the car in diagnostic mode, which pulses the fuel pump once a second. do this and turn the ignition to 'ON', but don't start the car. yo'ull hear the fuel pump begin to click on and off. i know this works on 87+ XT's and it should on yours.

 

good luck working in that parking lot, that's no fun!

Edited January 22, 2009 by grossgary

[bobs97c5]

I

What would be the best way to drain the gas from the tank? From near the fuel pump under the car, or from the fuel filter hose in the engine bay? How about how to wire the pump to run so I can drain the bad gas? Thanks!

 

I took a spare fuel pump and plugged it into the fuel line leaving the gas tank toward the back of the car just before the fuel filter. I then powered the fuel pump with a 12v battery charger and let it suck the fuel tank dry dumping the bad fuel into a bucket (luckily the tank only had a 1.5 gallons in it). This went way faster than when I was trying to do this from up in the engine bay where the fuel line goes to the carb on my EA82. This is the best spot where you can get the hose lower than the tank and let gravity help do the job. Also make sure to remove the gas cap so the fuel will empty out quicker.

[subiemech85]

I have seen some wierd stuff in my time - as far as reasons for something not working

 

for example ea81 distributor decided to self destruct and lock up which caused the aluminum drive gear on the crankshaft to strip, when the engine was turned over, the rotor would not always turn engine ran fine until heater blower motor was turned on

 

It is possible to have a stripped timing belt, broken key, sheared roll pin, deformed gears

 

you can set to base timing fairly easily: remove dist. and #1 sparkplug

rotate engine to TDC compression #1 flywheel pointer at 0 and left side - opposite oil fill tube -camshaft gear alignen so that the "odd hole" is pointed down 45* away from engine, and the "odd hole" is pointed up 45* away from the engine on the right cam, then align dist. housing match mark "slot" or "arrow" with pinion gear match mark "round dent" to set #1 cylinder at ignition position

 

you can use an '85 - '86 carb 4wd dist, or other dist. as long as it is the 2-wire system if you need to get by, even one from electronic ea71 or ea81 will work if you switch the dist. gear, just remove the old dist. with it's wiring, and hook up the replacement dist. wiring to the coil and all is well

 

codes 21 and 22 affect drivability, not starting IIRC from reading the '86 code book last saturday

 

easy way to drain gas from tank is to remove return hose from tank outlet, assuming the supply line is plugged, otherwise disconnect supply and return hoses

 

connecting green connectors should cycle fuel pump

 

the aspirated air thermosensor may not be happy

 

the pressure switch is located between strut tower and maf, visible in your pic your system should have 2 swithces, one to detect boost so ecm will cancel air-fuel ratio feedback control - also signals the boost light, and the other signals ecm of overboost so it can cut fuel

 

AFAIK: 87 was first year of crank angle sensor system, optical, screw in rotor

 

try disconnecting the maf wire connector and starting, also a moment, this trick works on the hotwire system, and may work for you

[Gloyale]

 

AFAIK: 87 was first year of crank angle sensor system, optical, screw in rotor

 

 

True and false. 87 was the first year of optical Disty, but even the earlier ones had a screw in the rotor. I know, I had an 86 GL-10 Turbo that baffled me for nearly a month, until I accidentally bumped the rotor while the cap was off, and it spun freely.

 

 

So my next question, to the OP, is the screw that holds the rotor still in place?

[derburger]

It has a screw in rotor. When I replaced the rotor I stripped the screw head because I couldn't get a screwdriver in at a good angle to take it out. When I put in the screw with the new rotor, I could get the screw in about 3/4th the way in before the resistance was too much and the screw strips. But, the rotor is held on tight. I can't post much at the moment but next I'll see if the timing belt broke, spark from all wires/plugs, rotor and drain gas if necessary.

[derburger]

Progress! I cleaned more grounds, all of which were corroded. I took the timing cover off to check the belt, it was fine. Cleaned a ground near the battery NEG post, then the wire that led near the ALT bracket, both shock tower grounds, a ground on the firewall, cleaned up the ground by the fuel injectors again.

 

When I crank the car, the engine will catch and the RPM meter will say 250 or so but it won't stay running.

 

Where is the ground on the drivers or passenger's seat, the ground for the rear defrost, one under the steering column? Those ones I didn't clean or couldn't find.

 

I think I should drain the fuel tonight and put new gas in. Need to find more grounds to clean, though, that's part of the problem. If all goes well I should have this running tonight!

[Jonathan2009]

Sorry guys I am new. Can some one tell me how I can post my own thread. Thanks. Sorry I am slow

[Skip]

Jonathan - look at the main page for the forum you

want to put a theard in

On the left side a few lines down will be a symbol

that says "New Thread"

Click that.

 

 

I have never heard of this many grounds causing a problem

but Subiemech was right when he ask if your

cleaned ALL the gounds that you said you had.

"Ground issue? I cleaned all the grounds in the engine bay."

 

 

Guess you have been so busy cleaning ground you didn't bother

checking for spark at the plug.

 

Good luck sir, you'll get it.

Keep on cleaning grounds.

 

I wonder if the FI coolant temp sensor has a ground?

Maybe you should clean it??

This sound related to a Fuel injection coolant temp sensor.

Remeber I ain't no subiemech

" When it was running, it got harder to start as the temps dropped... cranked and cranked before finally firing"

[john in KY]

 

When I crank the car, the engine will catch and the RPM meter will say 250 or so but it won't stay running.

 

Here's my wag. The injectors fire in pairs. For some reason when the key is in the run position only one pair fires. When the key is in the run position for some reason the single pair of injectors cease to fire.

[subiemech85]

throttle switch and coolant temp sensor share ground according to the centerfold pin-up, 9 pin connector

 

also grounds for knock sensor, a/c compressor

 

E center under dash? relay bracket holds 4 relays appears to be mounted on trans tunnel relays for ignition and fuel pump on left, rear defog and blower motor on right

 

F under front right seat, remove seat and plastic trim, pull up carpet, top of cross brace

 

left rear defroster ground looks to be by spare tire, under rear parcel shelf

 

 

the aspirated air thermosensor may not be happy, this is probably the most likely factor to cause hard starting when cold, especially if the ecm thinks the air is 100+

upon further pondering, the round connector for maf and aspirated air temp sensor may be disconnected or have other issues, which COULD cause your code 21

[Qman]

throttle switch and coolant temp sensor share ground according to the centerfold pin-up, 9 pin connector

 

also grounds for knock sensor, a/c compressor

 

E center under dash? relay bracket holds 4 relays appears to be mounted on trans tunnel relays for ignition and fuel pump on left, rear defog and blower motor on right

 

F under front right seat, remove seat and plastic trim, pull up carpet, top of cross brace

 

left rear defroster ground looks to be by spare tire, under rear parcel shelf

 

 

the aspirated air thermosensor may not be happy, this is probably the most likely factor to cause hard starting when cold, especially if the ecm thinks the air is 100+

upon further pondering, the round connector for maf and aspirated air temp sensor may be disconnected or have other issues, which COULD cause your code 21

 

Seriously, stop telling him to remove his distributor. His code 21/22 is where he should have started in the beginning. Clean the MAF. Clean all grounds AND connections. Clear each code as it comes until the codes are clear. Being that the history of this car may not be 100% know.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Qman

[Qman]

code 12 same as me

 

 

your timing is likely way off

 

with cap removed crank engine and make sure rotor turns nice, no skipping 22mm on the front crank bolt

 

remove dist., reset to initial base timing, marks aligned, and connect green check connector

 

there are 7 common grounds

A front left hood bumper

B above front right tow hook

C front right strut tower

D front left strut tower

E center under dash? relay bracket holds 4 relays

F under front right seat

G under trunk latch

 

also clean your engine ground and left rear defroster ground

 

the ECM does NOT care about having it's CASE GROUNDED

 

 

 

 

incase you can't tell, I don't like it when people claim that they clean all grounds when they forget some

 

my car "fixed" itself after I cleaned ALL grounds

 

I quit driving my '85 vw jetta diesel when it quit starting below 50*f

 

Take a step back and ease up a bit! BTW, which manual are you quoting from? The distributor will not "jump" timing without other issues. The belt is good, the distributor turns freely, it tries to start but doesn't quite catch. Does it run if you add starting fluid? Bad grounds will cause poor running but should not stop your car.

 

To the OP, have you inspected the temp sensor? That can also cause fuel related starting issues. Did you add new gas after your 200 miles? If not than that is not the issue. Did you ever clean the MAF? If your code check stated that was a problem clear it up first.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Qman

[subiemech85]

Take a step back and ease up a bit! BTW, which manual are you quoting from? The distributor will not "jump" timing without other issues. The belt is good, the distributor turns freely, it tries to start but doesn't quite catch. Does it run if you add starting fluid? Bad grounds will cause poor running but should not stop your car.

 

To the OP, have you inspected the temp sensor? That can also cause fuel related starting issues. Did you add new gas after your 200 miles? If not than that is not the issue. Did you ever clean the MAF? If your code check stated that was a problem clear it up first.

 

'85 xt service manual SUPPLEMENT Publication No. G131BEB

'85 sedan and station wagon service manual Publication No. G130BEA section 2-3

 

other issues could have existed

 

fresh gas could have stirred up crud

 

cleaning flapper door won't do much of anything

 

measuring resistance of the flapper door pot as the door is moving will determine if it is working

[derburger]

Nope, no fresh gas, just drove 200 miles, parked in the lot, never restarted. Currently, I'm cleaning grounds and brackets that ground... The relays inbetween the passenger shock tower/ airbox had a dirty ground bracket, when I opened the connections, they were dirty and corroded on the inside. So right now I'm cleaning all the connections and grounds I find. I'll clean the coolant temp sensor connections again to be sure. I cleaned the idle air control valve out too, it was sticky.

 

I don't know how to clean the MAF. I'll clean the connections, but I've read that the inside of the MAF requires a MAF-safe solvent, all I have on hand is carb cleaner and a weak degreaser. What should I do to the MAF?

 

I checked the timing belt on the pass. side, no weirdness there, I'll take off the driver side cover and see if the belt skipped a few notches or something.

[subiemech85]

don't bother cleaning the maf unless it is really dirty and sticky

 

cleaning the maf is sometimes needed for HOTWIRE maf systems, which you do NOT have

 

I have use brake cleaner on the hotwire system with good results

 

it seemed from your previous unclear post that you had already checked the driver side t-belt

 

you should check to make sure that everything is lined up as I described, both cams, flywheel, rotor @ #1, #1 piston @ tdc compression

[derburger]

Well, the car "almost" started again. I cleaned the maf connector, coolant temp sensor/connector, relays and grounds near the MAF, any ground connection in the engine bay, ground wire in the trunk.

 

Then when I tried to start the car, I plugged in the green test connectors again. It had the same code, Long blink, two quick blinks, it repeated that code. I cranked the car, it got to 750 rpm but wouldn't stay running.

 

I think the timing belt might have slipped by a few teeth. When I backed the car into it's parking spot, I missed reverse gear and ground the clutch once or twice. Then the car was running rough at idle, I shortly shut it off. Would that be a possible scenario for messing up the Timing belt? I just took off the passenger side cover and looked in, that's the extent of what I know.

 

Tomorrow I'll pull plugs for spark, pull driver side timing cover and check if the belt skipped teeth or something, clean MAF (How?) and if all else fails drain the tank, I replaced the fuel filter and bad looking gas came out. Anything else to try??

[Qman]

Well, the car "almost" started again. I cleaned the maf connector, coolant temp sensor/connector, relays and grounds near the MAF, any ground connection in the engine bay, ground wire in the trunk.

 

Then when I tried to start the car, I plugged in the green test connectors again. It had the same code, Long blink, two quick blinks, it repeated that code. I cranked the car, it got to 750 rpm but wouldn't stay running.

 

I think the timing belt might have slipped by a few teeth. When I backed the car into it's parking spot, I missed reverse gear and ground the clutch once or twice. Then the car was running rough at idle, I shortly shut it off. Would that be a possible scenario for messing up the Timing belt? I just took off the passenger side cover and looked in, that's the extent of what I know.

 

Tomorrow I'll pull plugs for spark, pull driver side timing cover and check if the belt skipped teeth or something, clean MAF (How?) and if all else fails drain the tank, I replaced the fuel filter and bad looking gas came out. Anything else to try??

 

 

If the drivers side belt slipped it would not run at all. Period. It is possible that you have bad gas but not very probable. Go to your local parts house and buy a can of MAF cleaner. CRC makes a good product for that. The code that flashes when you plug in the green connectors is just the 12 code. Simply, it is the code that flashes to tell you that it is communicating and working.

 

Check for carbon build up on the cap and continuity through the plug wires. Have you replaced the plugs yet?