When was the head gasket issue cleared up..??

[vwbuge1]

I have been out of the newer generation of Subarus for a while. I know they had an issue with the head gaskets failing prematurely on the 2.5L. Has this been cleared up and what year car should I look for?

[bratman18]

Supposedly after 2003 it was cleared up........

[bheinen74]

yeah rumor says 2003-2005 cleaned up. rumor says 2006-now has rod knock and issues on them ALL, nt HG related tho, but rods and piston issues after 2005. Sti's brand new 2009 have rod knock, not good. well good if you are me and have a few ej22ts bullet proof blocks... but yeah very much a discussion topic worthwhile. in my honest opinion, after year 1994 most subaru engines are very questionable in build quality. ej22 genre, the 90 tp 94 ej22 was excellent, the 91-94 ej22t closed deck is bullet proof, the 95 and 96 ej22 non interferance is good, then the ej25 comes about and FAIL big fail.

then the ej20 in the wrx pretty good. now, who knows. ramble

 

but ftw the ej22t is the best ever still.

[chadwick35/04]

Well I wouldn't hold your breath, my 2004 legacy had head gaskets done at

40k, just a heads up man!

[bheinen74]

subaru quality on engine build definitely gone downhill since 1994

doh, not so good. i like the oldies cause i cant afford the newbie subies

[subiemech85]

makes the "problematic" ea82t and "rare" ea81t seem not so bad

 

only time will tell as far as the diesel

 

 

end mindless wandering after a nap where I was happy zzz away

 

 

don't even mention ej swap

[idosubaru]

there's no definitive date - was *thought* to be 2002/2003...but obviously later years are having issues as well. they aren't as bad as the earlier ones though.

 

it's not too hard to find an EJ25 vehicle with the head gaskets already replaced with the new Subaru head gaskets. get one of those. i'd go for the 2000+ Phase II EJ25, much better engine. they don't "blow" in the "now you're stranded sense" like the 96-99 EJ25's. they only leak externally and will drive indefinitely as long as you top the coolant off as needed.

 

avoid the EJ25 - the H6 is a great motor, just get one of those and address the fine points mentioned in the H6 thread which i recounted in your other post about that motor.

 

as for quality going down after all 94 models and "ALL" of certain years having rod knock, do you want to point us to some quantitative information on this? that's really opinionated and inaccurate for a purchaser.

 

there are plenty of excellent subaru's available after 1994. i've owned a ton of them, bought them for family and friends....i specifically avoid the ugly ducklings of the gen 1's, i've never bought one.

 

older cars aren't a good fit for everyone. it'll need some items in short order: a new radiator, alternator, starter, brake work, exhaust, O2 sensor, knock sensor, plugs and wires, a wheel bearing, all the fluids changed.....for someone not doing their own work you're talking thousands in maintenance on an old ugly gen 1 legacy. not most people's cup of tea, so let's try and help these folks out.

[vwbuge1]

I am definitely not afraid of getting my hands dirty. I have been maintaining my '91 legacy since I bought her. Timing belts, water pumps, brake work. I am still a little shy of the Auto trans. I definitely need a manual but of course they are hard to find. I'd like to get the H6 with a manual but I am not even sure they made them.

 

I know what I want, I just have to spend some time looking for it.

[jklingel]

Gary: I am curious about this head gasket problem. I realize that stink happens, even w/ the best rigs, but this head gasket problem seems a bit too prevalent for my tastes. Our '00 wagon is still going strong, but my daughter's '03 Legacy just blew BOTH head gaskets, at 18,731 miles. How prevalent is this head gasket problem? Do I need to dump my '09 wagon ex post haste? Is Subaru helping people out at all on this deal (financially)? Good God; not 19K miles and the head gaskets blow out? Pretty sad for a company w/ such a good rep. Any help you, or anyone else, can be about how to gingerly lean on Subaru would be appreciated. I realize that the car is "off warranty", but for the miles this is inexcusable, IMHO, and it sounds like she is not the first one to experience this. In fact, when my wife was talking w/ a gal at the dealership, that gal was in for head gaskets on an '05. Thanks.

[bheinen74]

okay, so subaru needs go back to ej22 block design, but i think they destroyed the casting molds for it..

many ej22 engines with over 300,000 miles and never a HG

many ej25 with HG and less than 60k miles. hmmm. quality, yea its gone

[davebugs]

I don't know if it will ever be cleared up. First internal leak, then external leak - wonder what's next - perhaps burning coolant/smoking?

 

Anyway remember this simple math. Subaru's have twice as many head gaskets as any other 4 cylinder that I know of. So mathematically that would double their chance of HG issues.

 

Dave

[jklingel]

This is apparently a pretty big concern, not rare isolated cases. Discouraging, w/ 3 Subarus in the family. And I switched from GM for this?

[davebugs]

Yea but HG's piston slap(harmless) and rod knock (not so harmless) are about the only things to worry about.

 

The second HG will be easier to do then the first. By the time you get to the third you'll be pretty good at it.

 

Lately I've been doing them before they leak - less chance of warping the heads. I pull the engine, reseal it (including Hg's on 2.5's), complete TB kit, re-install.

 

Good for another 100k.

[crash321]

This is apparently a pretty big concern, not rare isolated cases. Discouraging, w/ 3 Subarus in the family. And I switched from GM for this?

 

You will have to put it into perspective though. GM has had its issues also. Subaru, for all intents and purposes is a great car with a great reliability record. Just look at consumer reports. GM has had problems forever with its 3.1, 3.4 intake manifold gaskets leaking coolant (or oil, take your pick)into the engine crankcase. This can be fatal to that engine. But if found early on and fixed, these engine are bulletproof and reliable and will run to 300,000 miles. Same goes for these Subaru engines. Take care of them and they will run just as long. Many people will usually give up on any engine or car when a problem pops up because to many people believe in the disposable car even from brand new. GM, Ford, and Chysler fertilized this mindset (leasing come to mind). So don't freak out and dump your subees because some had a bad experience, friends of mine have forester with close to 200,000 miles with no problems, and their parents have one with over 100,000 miles with no problems. :cool:

[idosubaru]

head gaskets were a problem for many manufacturers in the late 90's, this isn't a "subaru" thing. it was driven by consumers and marketing. bigger, faster, better mantra (to sell) went faster than engine technology which created problems. then manufacturers started playing catch up.

 

some vehicles/engines had much higher (nearly %100) failure rates than EJ25's.

[bheinen74]

i classify the ej25 as a 95% failure rate of HG. The 5% is for those who have never had any problem, YET.

I will never own a ej25 powered car due to this design flaw.

[jklingel]

Thanks, all, for the info and encouragement to keep the 'rus. Fear not. I won't jump ship just yet; these are why I gave up on GMs many years ago. I know recurring problems intimately; got tired of 700R trannies blowing up, etc. This is just NOT SUBARU, in my book, and it is hard to swallow. I just spoke w/ a friend whose 98' ru had HG problems at nearly 80K miles (a bit more understandable than 19K) and he found and signed onto a class-action law suit over this. That indicates that this may be bigger than I first thought. He said a mech in town is sure that, w/ that particular engine, HG failures are close to a "given". Disappointing to hear. Every manufacturer has problems; I recall Toyota having some black eyes over the '07(?) Tacoma. And that came from Consumer Reports, which I think is fairly reliable info, not just anecdotal. At any rate, I am going to look for this class-action and see what the hey. BTW: My friend got 'ru to pay for half of the HG replacement. Maybe they know that he is a convicted arson (kidding). Y'all be good, and happy 'ru-ing. We love ours; bought our first ones, used, in '90 and ran them till they had over 160K on them; no sweat.

[jklingel]

More tidbits; no idea of the authenticity, but interesting in what they imply, anyway. I hope this issue is put to rest in the best interest of us loyal consumers.

 

http://www.subaruproblems.com/ ‘99 to ‘02 coolant leaks

 

http://home.comcast.net/~skipnospam/guestlog.html

[ShawnW]

okay, so subaru needs go back to ej22 block design, but i think they destroyed the casting molds for it..

 

Where did you get that info from? Theres absolutely no way they would do that. Overseas alot of countries still restrict displacement to 1.6, 1.8, 2.0 etc at the most. There are NEW cars with Ej20, EJ18, EJ16 engines out there to this day. Just not here in the USA...still...some of the cheapest gas on the planet.

 

Subaru extended the warranty on some 2000 and 2001 model cars because of lots of failures early on. These are great cars other than their head gasket issues and if they were already replaced they will probably last 1.5 times the factory installed ones life at a minimum. Most of these are falling off of warranty time period right now and if they aren't they are at or above the 100K mark that the warranty was extended to.

 

Most of the ones I have seen that have the external head gasket failure are people that didnt have their 30K services done and most notably the coolant changed and the cooling system conditioner added. Most of the ones I have seen also are people that have the oil changed at lube shops at 7500 mile intervals or worse as well. These cars are tough but they need care to last a long time.

Above I saw mention of a low miles failure....but no mention of how often the fluids were changed. They need to be changed on a time or mileage scenerio as per the owners manual. Its usually every 2 years or 30K miles I think....but most people hit 30K first so I am not aware of the time suggestion. A fluids life and PH are very important to head gasket success.

 

The fact is, having head gaskets done every 100K or so isn't really that much expense.

On a customer pay ticket its 10 hours labor and a reasonable amount of money for the parts. While its being done you can have your water pump, timing belt and timing belt tensioner replaced. You need that at 105K anyway. All its doing is adding a few gaskets and about 6 hours labor to the bill. It also allows you to have your clutch replaced at the same time if you wish. All said and done you can buy a 2000-2001 Outback with a bad head gasket for around 2000 dollars, maybe even 3000, have the work done, and be at $5000 for a car that will easily last another 100K miles without much major work.

 

We could be big fans of a car with:

Electrical system problems

Trans problems

Badly designed brake components

Tons of rattles and build quality issues.

Cracked blocks

Cracked heads

Tons of engines with thrown rods

Timing belts that are hard to change out

 

But we dont have those things. ANd we have an engine that is easily removed from the car. I can get a 2000-2009 Outback engine out of the car in about 45-55 minutes usually.

Above I saw mention of praise to the Ea82 engine.....wow. That thing isn't NEARLY as easy to remove as the new engine and alot harder to work on in the car than the new ones as well. It also doesnt pay for itself in the comfort, mileage or reliablity categories that even the Ej25 engine beats it on. The Turbo version of that engine went thru timing belts and head gaskets far more often than any Ej25 does.

 

In summary. Take care of the car it will probably take care of you. AND pick your battles. It could be worse. You could be chasing a lot of other problems that Subaru is smart on. Remember a flat motor has twice the head gaskets of typical 4 cyl cars.

 

Our 2003 Baja has 179K miles on it without a head gasket replacement. We bought it at 140K and I ran a report on it at the dealer that showed it had the cooling system conditioner added per the recall and has had a bottle and coolant change every 30K since that bulletin. I am about to do the gaskets in the next few months because the water pump is starting to seep so I figured I would pull the motor out and do a preventative set. Previous owner did the 30K services at 29, 55, 83.5, and 109K with the timing belt.

 

And if you don't like the head gasket problems get a turbo car or an H6 model. The new 3.0 Outback is a terrific car.

[bheinen74]

well, i happen to think the ej22 94 and older is a much better engine in all aspects (non interference, no head gaskets blowing, no rod knock, on on on) than the "quality" and "HG" and rod knock, and bearing issues and such other issues of todays EJ25 engine. If subaru wants to make a reliable engine, then they will do so again. Its just been many years since we can honestly say they made an engine that lasted 300K.

 

Shawn, you said it is easy to fix the HG, and i agree, a HG job is cheap and easy. But, what about the heat and stress and what it does to the bottom end at the time of the overheting many times. Subaru will paly this off as a bad thermostat-PLAIN WRONG. Then they play it off as a bad radiator. WRONG. then they say it has to be a bad water pump-WRONG again, get the picture. By this time, the engine is COOKED, WELL DONE, over. Sure a HG is cheap, but the engine is TOAST. Better to throw in a 250k EJ22 block and be done, never to have a HG problem again.

rant over.

I would bet my entire car on the fact a outback will be in the shop with engine tear down 3 times more than a pre-95 ej22 with similar mileages......that is not RIGHT. that is why so many of us will avoid new Subarus until they get this FIXED.

Edited February 7, 2009 by bheinen74

[SUBARU3]

Remember that the 1995 and 1996 EJ22s are also excellent engines. No piston slap, no head gasket issues, no rod knock, non-interference. (Same as the 1994 and back EJ22s).

 

The problem was in 1997 they went interference with all engines and was the downhill slide in engine durability for Subaru.

 

Also, the 99 Forester and the 99 Impreza got the new/improved SOHC Phase 2 EJ25 1 year before the Legacy in 2000.

 

Todd

[jklingel]

Shawn: (1) Good info, and I see your points. You are obviously very experienced w/ these critters. I don't think anyone here is bashing Subaru entirely, but I do think that this HG problem is real, and serious. To say "It could be worse" is true enough, but to me that trivializes the problem. Don't let 'em off the hook too easily. Given too much wiggle room, they'll just become another car cranker-outer. Why was this problem not addressed and smashed as soon as it surfaced? Why did it take years (if, in fact, it has been resolved)? Sure we could have 'rus w/ all kinds of problems, like some other manufacturers, but then we wouldn't have a Subaru. Subarus are DIFFERENT: That is the whole point I am trying to drive in. I am not driving a Chevy/Ford/Chrysler, etc, so I don't EXPECT bad HGs, OR bad cams, or anything else. I expect a Subaru. If I wanted problems I'd buy any old brand and hope for the best. (2) Above you mentioned a "low mileage problem but no mention of fluid changes" (to that effect, anyway). If that was my rig, the oil was changed often, and to the best of my recollection (it's my daughter's car) we followed the book on everything. I always do. And I am not so sure that oil changes every 7.5K are all that bad. A point was made on another forum that "ever 2.5 to 3K oil changes" is a 30 yr old rule, and oil, filters, engines, etc, have advanced since then. A lot of the guys on that forum are changing oil every 8 to 15K miles on ALL their rigs, and running them into the 200K miles plus range. I can't go that far myself, but then I am old school. (3) I'll post the details tomorrow, but my daughter's car (the 18,731 mi job) is fixed and Subaru of America is going to help out "a lot"; we haven't seen the paperwork yet. (4) A friend had his '99 repaired at about 80K and got it done for half price. Either very generous of Subaru, or a reaction to the class action suit that he signed on to. I don't know, but apparently they are standing behind their rigs, and THAT is why I will continue to be a 'ru fan, but still encourage them to be DIFFERENT. (4) Thanks again for all your top notch info.

[idosubaru]

99 Impreza got the new/improved SOHC Phase 2 EJ25 1 year before the Legacy in 2000.

that's not true. Impreza's (OBS and sedans) still got the EJ22 in 99. Only the RS had the EJ25.

 

the bottom line is that EJ25's have a lot more issues than the EJ22. there's no "right" or "proper" way to look at this, each person, consumer, and driver is different.

 

many of the folks i know (even though i try to encourage otherwise), are basically buying as much car as they can afford. if they're paying $5,000 for a 2000 Subaru that's about the most they can afford. Having a $1,000+ repair in a year or two is not ideal for those kind of folks (which is many).

 

and i would imagine there's a lot of folks like that on this board too - a $1,000 - $2,000 repair is not ideal.

Edited February 7, 2009 by grossgary

[jklingel]

Gross: Well said, if not a little conservative. A $1000 repair bill on a recently purchased $5K car would be devastating to most, painful to the others. Now for my last post on this issue: Subaru had my daughter's HG repaired for a peanuts cost to her. EOS. That is what I expect from a good company, and Subaru came through splendidly. This tells me that the HG issue was an aberration, they knew it, and they ate it. Lesson learned, and loyal customers kept. Thanks, Subaru.

[ShawnW]

 

Shawn, you said it is easy to fix the HG, and i agree, a HG job is cheap and easy. But, what about the heat and stress and what it does to the bottom end at the time of the overheting many times. Subaru will paly this off as a bad thermostat-PLAIN WRONG. Then they play it off as a bad radiator. WRONG. then they say it has to be a bad water pump-WRONG again, get the picture. By this time, the engine is COOKED, WELL DONE, over. Sure a HG is cheap, but the engine is TOAST. Better to throw in a 250k EJ22 block and be done, never to have a HG problem again.

rant over.

I would bet my entire car on the fact a outback will be in the shop with engine tear down 3 times more than a pre-95 ej22 with similar mileages......that is not RIGHT. that is why so many of us will avoid new Subarus until they get this FIXED.

 

Most of the ones I do aren't to the point of devistation like you are saying. Most all of them are external leak and seeping. Not overheating yet. No damage has been done to the bottom end at that point. On a 2.2L when the head gaskets blows it does overheat like clockwork. Its the difference in the gasket material.

(Which by the way is what Subaru would be using if they hadnt banned Asbestos materials in gaskets a few years back....maybe we are fighting something that isnt 100% Subarus fault but rather the change in material use requirements and the scramble they put the automakers thru with it. How many years of good gaskets of that old material did we have and then we switch and bam its bad?)

 

On top of that who is stupid enough to overheat it more than once?

Im sorry but I deal with enough dumb people in a day that I just cant stand people that ignore gauges and warning lights and then want it warrantied.

 

Im a firm believer that the 2.2 (NA) is a better engine.

I also believe that the demand of the consumer for power, mileage and a big heavy car with a ton of seat heaters and dual sunroofs and power leather seats and the lot is the reality. To move that much car you need a 2.5.

 

I built my Vanagon with a 2.2L but I put in better pistons, delta cams, decked the heads, etc. That kindof equalized it to a 2.5 but its not a motor that would be able to be consumer friendly.

I built a 97 OBW a 2.2L conversion engine with the same cams, pistons and head decking. This motor was ok but it got worse mileage than a 2.5 and it wouldn't pass on a 55MPH road up hill like a 2.5 would.

 

Today I got authorization to replace the headgaskets on a 2001 with 99,960 miles. 40 miles from being out of the warranty extension. This was that cars first set. It had never had the coolant replaced but had the cooling conditioner added at 80K. I have done around 10 sets in the past 2 months and only 1 car was past warranty or didnt get a deal from Subaru. That one had 142K on the original set and never had the cooling system additive added. They did their coolant changes and I think that bought them the miles they got. While I dont think the additive is a perfect solution I have seen better results from the people that did use it than didn't. And I don't see how it can hurt. When you pour it, it looks weird but gives you a voodoo vibe of hmmm this might work.

Most of the cars on the road wont reach 300K miles. They will rust out, get wrecked, etc before that.

The customer won't pay anything for this repair but can opt to buy the timing belt while the engine is out. That means they are actually SAVING 400 dollars labor on a timing belt job and they will get their oil changed free, coolant replaced free, etc.

So your 90-94 Legacy would be in the shop at 60K for a timing belt, and would be 20K from needing another. Thats 800 in labor alone plus the 2 belts at 75 bux....toss in some tax, shop supplies, etc and its easily at 1000. So which car or customer won again? And how many airbags and safety features does the old car have? And better ABS, cruise control and seats? How about seatbelts? When yours break you have to go junkyarding for a set and if you get a good one you still have a car with seatbelts that drive 90 percent of drivers completely insane. When the 2000 Outback seatbelt tears slightly they come in for a new one free. They also get their valve cover gaskets replaced for free with the HG job which would pay between 1.5 and 2 hours at a shop to do and is an even more common leak on ALL Subarus whether they are a 1977 Brat or a brand new car this will probably be a pretty early leak to have fixed.

 

Above it was mentioned that it would be devistating to a customer that bought a $5000 car that needed a $1000 repair and I agree. But the internet is here and hopefully somebody that has $5000 to spend on a car will do some research online and find that this is a common problem with the car and have it checked, hopefully at a dealer to see when the gaskets were last replaced under warranty and make an informed decision. They might also take that information with them when making the deal and want $500 off the price of the car as insurance against this.

 

Like I said...pick your battles.