stevensocial Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Hi, First of I wanted to give a quick thanks to the folks who post and reply to this site, it's been a life (and money!) saver more than once with my 1999 Outback wagon. I recently moved from Denver to San Diego last August (I was commissioned into the US Navy as a doctor/Lieutenant). Back in Colorado my car wasn't the most powerful up and down the mountains, but no big deal, it is a 4 cyl engine. In Jan 08, I had the head gasket, valve cover gaskets, radiator, and water pump replaced after it overheated and bled coolant all over the parking lot at Vail. Has been running great since then. About 6 weeks ago I noticed the car starting to sound a bit "gurgly" when I hit the gas or accelerate. The sound is absent when it's idling or at highway speeds, and dissappears at about 20-25 mph. Hard to describe other than it sounds like the engine is trying to gargle with a mouthfull of marbles, real throaty and rumbly. As time went on, I replaced the air filter, changed the spark plugs, changed the oil, and changed the PCV valve. The sound got a bit quieter but was still there. I even tried some of the "mechanic in a bottle" fuel injector cleaner stuff recommended by a local Pep Boys, no dice. It's a sluggish on uphills, and feels a little wimpier overall. One week ago, while we were having alot of rain, I drove up to Palm Springs for the weekend (about 130 miles away, an elevation gain of about 2000 to 2500 feet, with four adults in the car and luggage) the check engine light came on. I'd been driving at about 70-75 (cruise control was on) in a light rain, no AC running). Luckily we were almost at our hotel, so parked the car over night. The CEL stayed on the whole weekend, my in-laws told us both of their cars had CELs on for years, and they drove fine, so wasn't sure what to think about it. During that weekend, while driving through some moderate grades (everything seems like a grade when you normally live at sea level), I noticed the temp gauge sitting a bit higher than normal (usually sits just shy of halfway), I could watch the temp gauge slowly starting to rise to about 3/4's of the way to overheating and had to drive with the heaters on full blast for the night (luckily it was cold outside anyway). This kept the temp gauge just above normal. Reading the owner's manual, it recommends checking to make sure the gas cap is tightened till it clicks. I did that and the CEL was off the next time I started the car (YAY!). Two days later it's back on, still gurgling, and I've noticed that since this problems started about 6 weeks ago my fuel mileage is suffering slightly (usually 300 miles to a tank, currently about 250-260 a tank). Just brought it in to my local Pep Boys who offer to diagnose CEL for free. They came back with po325 code, recommending replacing the exhaust manifold gasket ($437 parts and labor), replacing the knock sensor ($200), and their "3-step Pro Fuel Package" for $89 dollars. My question is, are these decent qoutes? Can I replace the knock sensor and wait on the exhaust manifold gasket? What will happen if I don't replace the gasket? Is the gasket the source of the "rumbly" sound? Or should I just replace the whole exhaust system to avoid future exhaust-related repairs? Does anyone know a good reliable mechanic in San Diego, preferably close to the Hillcrest area? Again, thanks for all your help folks, and thanks for reading. Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hicketts Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) If you have at least some tools the knock sensor and exhaust gaskets should be easy, there are some good threads on here about the knock sensor replacement. It will take may be 20 minutes and a small socket with an extension, and cost from 75-100 for the part. It's really just a small microphone that listens for detention from the motor. It can actually make you motor start to run hot by retarding the timing. If you are not hearing an exhaust leak I dont know about replacing them to start off. If you get under the front of your car wear the front license plate is you can see the two exuast pipes coming down. Each side has three bolts, between them and the engine block are the gaskets. To just replace "exhaust manifold gaskets" should take 15 minutes, and no where near $437. Now if it were a GM 3.1 V6 that would be an okay price but for the simplicity of the Suby it's unfair. Edited February 24, 2009 by hicketts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiveStar Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Do you think the "girgling" noises your hearing are due to exhaust leaks? I can't imagine what Pep Boys is including in the $400 + exhaust manifold gasket replacement. This job shouldn't cost any where near that amount of money. Generally, when I hear someone describe a "girgling" noise, I think about the cooling system and possible air pockets, which if accurate in your case may also relate to your temp gauge rising on your trip. Have you checked the coolant level? Your knock sensor job is relatively easy and most likely can be done by you at home. As for the cel on for years in your in-laws cars, this can be very dangerous to the vehicle for 2 main reasons... 1) if the underlying problem is an important component for the engine or transmission management systems, the computer will refer to certain default settings, which may be ok on the short term, but cause much bigger problems on the long term if ignored. 2) If the light is on and something more serious develops then you have no warning at all because your used to seeing this light on. For more information on your check engine light etc feel free to review my website at http://www.5starservicenter.com Good Luck! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Wow that Pep Boys saw you coming. $400 is insane for exhaust gaskets. They are about $20 from the dealer and to change them is just 6 bolts easily acessed from under the car. If no trouble with rust, you are done in 10 mins. The knock sensor price is probably about right. I forget how much they are new, but they also take 5 mins to change, it's one bolt holding it on right behind the intake manifold. I'd forget rip off shops like Pep Boys and find a local shop that specializes in Subaru or at least foreign cars in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steves72 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I had the P0325 code on my 2000 obw. The car would occasionally fall flat on it's face while attempting to accelerate. The computer was pulling all of the timing out of the motor. The meaning of the code is the computer is not liking what it sees down that electrical connection to the knock sensor. While it may be the wiring I would bet on the knock sensor being bad. My knock sensor physically looked OK but when I checked the resistance to ground I was getting a reading around 1.4 million ohms. I forget what was considered to be in spec but if memory serves it was in the 500,000 to 600,000 ohm range. Do a serch here and you will get that answer. I bought the part at a local parts store for 82 + tax; put it in myself; and the light went out. The car also drove much better. I found it to be an easy 20 minute job. I removed the air cleaner box to reach it but only because I found it easier to get my hands down to the sensor. Forget Pepboys. Get an ohm meter and see if the knock sensor is out of spec which it probably is and replace it yourself. The head gaskets are also a very easy job. For that kind of quote I would buy the parts elsewhere. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Woooooooooo slow down. Soobys dont really have an exhaust manifold to speak of. They do but they rarely leak. Leave this to the last thing. If it is a manifold gasket you can feel it leaking with the engine running. Be careful dont burn yourself. Use a peice of paper. Hold a single sheet in your hand and hold it up to the manifold, see if it moves. Lets start with the girgling, get a new radiator cap. That wil also help the slight gauge rise (but climbing a mountain its expected). Knock sensor, just replace it Next pepboys, don't let them touch your car, ever. nipper PS did you do all this work or did you have a shop do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensocial Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 I had a great mechanic back in Denver who did most of that work me. Since Pep Boys turned off the CEL, it's come on randomly, and will go off every time I fill the car with gas and put the gas cap back on. The car's fuel mileage is still suffering, currently 200 to a tank (usually 275). Bringing it into a highly recommended mechanic in the neighborhood for a once over (Smitty's on Adams street, Normal Heights, San Diego). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensocial Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 Brought it in to a local well recommended mechanic. He informed me that it was giving an error code 325, indicating knock sensor needed to be replaced. He also warned me that one of the techs noticed an "oil leak coming from behind the timing belt", which could be very harmful for the integrity of the timing belt itself. He recommended replacement of the timing belt and water pump while they're in there. He did warn me that when they open up this can of worms that the idlers pulleys and tensioner pulleys could need replacing too which could up his qoute of $1200 (knock sensor/timing belt/water pump) since those parts cost so much (he qouted me $120 to 180 per pulley). YIKES! Question: is there a timing belt--->knock sensor connection? I don't know, I'm tempted to just get the knock sensor replaced and leave it at that. Thanks, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Brought it in to a local well recommended mechanic. He informed me that it was giving an error code 325, indicating knock sensor needed to be replaced. He also warned me that one of the techs noticed an "oil leak coming from behind the timing belt", which could be very harmful for the integrity of the timing belt itself. He recommended replacement of the timing belt and water pump while they're in there. He did warn me that when they open up this can of worms that the idlers pulleys and tensioner pulleys could need replacing too which could up his qoute of $1200 (knock sensor/timing belt/water pump) since those parts cost so much (he qouted me $120 to 180 per pulley). YIKES! Question: is there a timing belt--->knock sensor connection? I don't know, I'm tempted to just get the knock sensor replaced and leave it at that. Thanks, Steven Er um RUN! timing belt and all the gizoms i have never paid more then 650.00 for. There is no connection. Many soobys run around with a weaping cam seal and they do fine. When the main seal or oil pump leak then they can get soaked. You would know it if you had one of those leaking. Just replace the knock sensor and keep driving. If the oil leak gets worse, get estimates from other shops for doing the TB, waterpump, tensioner, idler, cam seals, main seal and re-sealing the oil pump. this shop is more expensive then a dealer ! nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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