tundrawolf Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Hello, I have a beat up BRAT: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0309091212.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0309091212a.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0309091213a.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0309091213.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0309091213b.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0309091213c.jpg I will be putting the chassis underneath an old VW beetle, for an AWD beetle. Primarily I will use it for the trails and roads here in the desert. I was also told the front differential of the BRAT is a lost cause for trying to find a locker or LSD for. Do you guys have any ideas on that? I have been referred to this forum, because I have a Datsun IRS rear end that I would *love* to have a locker or LSD for. I have had no luck looking for anything for this Datsun rearend. Do you guys have any suggestions for me on that? Also, I am in need of the dual-range 4 speed 4x4 trans for the EA81 (And I also need an EA81, as my BRAT has the single range 4 speed and EA71.) Any suggestions are appreciated. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86HatchShelby Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 You could always weld the differential up, kind of like a full time locker, sucks for pavement though. -Jaren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 A brat doesnt really have a frame.as for the rear diff you can always weld it. on the road it doesnt really suck.the rear drive isnt engaged until you put it in 4wd.so it just drags along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subiemech85 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 here's the formula: ea81 or ea82 engine, your choice 4wd d/r 4 or 5 spd, your choice, 5spd is less problematic - and better power ranges, just use matching driveshaft due to length differences - or go custom driveshaft with the 5spd d/r to avoid the hanger bearing ea81 or ea82 or xt6 flywheel ea82 or xt6 clutch kit datsun 510 or subaru LSD, try to steal one back from "the dark side" avoid the Vlsd for your intended purpose requesting more pics of brat and topper, confirm build date and serial number!!!!! does it say A69L?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundrawolf Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 here's the formula:ea81 or ea82 engine, your choice 4wd d/r 4 or 5 spd, your choice, 5spd is less problematic - and better power ranges, just use matching driveshaft due to length differences - or go custom driveshaft with the 5spd d/r to avoid the hanger bearing ea81 or ea82 or xt6 flywheel ea82 or xt6 clutch kit datsun 510 or subaru LSD, try to steal one back from "the dark side" avoid the Vlsd for your intended purpose requesting more pics of brat and topper, confirm build date and serial number!!!!! does it say A69L?? Thank you for this reply! I was hoping I could put a 5 speed in there.. How much longer is it, or are you saying that the driveshaft out of the donor vehicle would match it up to the BRATs length? What is "The dark side"? I like the idea of welding the rear differential, because that is a good point-it's not in use until in 4wd! SO does that mean I will not have tire squeal on the pavement while in 2WD? If so, that sounds like a good idea to me! Here's the thing: The build more or less starts tomorrow, and all I have right now is the original 76 brat and all the parts to it, except the window glass. I will get more pics if you want, but really they don't reveal too much. The thing has been in the desert for 20 years, where people have vandalized it. You are saying that a 5 speed 4wd dual range tranny will work for this application-essentially "Bolting in" to the BRAT chassis? Do you have a model number on that tranny? I have been looking for the dual range 4 speed and EA81 and have been having no luck with it. Maybe a 5 speed would be better? Better mileage, right? Thank you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subiemech85 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 the dark side http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=96378&highlight=dark+side front dif locker http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=49241&highlight=front+locker another reason for the d/r 5spd the d/r 5spd is SHORTER, which needs the LONGER driveshaft as far as installing gen 3 5spd d/r in a gen 2 brat, simply install the matching trans and drive shaft and it will bolt in, no shrinking or stretching you can start off with fwd until the driveshaft issue is sorted out another "bonus" is fwd low your rear tires will not be happy at you and will make a bad feeling, some people remove a rear axle for on road use with welded rear, another reason for LSD http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=33392&highlight=turn+trail you want the d/r 5spd and ea81 or ea82 either engine can have SPFI IF you want to work for it http://home.comcast.net/~trilinear/EA81_SPFI.html http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=95298&highlight=spfi+swap yes, more pics of topper and brat, underhood, trans shifters, hitch, heater and vent duct airbox, better pics of stripes - best style so far!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbrat Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 you will need a custom driveshaft if going to the 5 speed, as I don't belive the Gen1 brat is the same wheel base as a Gen2, where you can use the gen3 donor driveshaft.... and your Brat would be a '78 model at the earliest. It was introduced in August of '77 as a '78 model. if it has a data plate date earlier than '77 then I would suspect it to be non-original..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundrawolf Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Hello, Thank you guys for replying. It really is helping me get the knowledge I need for this build. Some questions: The dark side is Craigslist? How much shorter is the 5 speed? Wht if I just moved the engine back? It'd be better for me to use the stock shaft, in case of a breakage-availability considered. What is d/r? I will definately take more pics of my fabulous BRAT. I know I am just teasing you guys with the pics i have posted, I wanted to make you all wait for the other GOOD ones. I will double check the date... So what sort of transmission am I looking for, model wise? Is d/r the model number of the transmission? Edited March 10, 2009 by tundrawolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subiemech85 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 the dark side was referring to datusn boys taking OUR LSD for THEIR DATSUN datsun lsd info http://kmhafer.datsun510.com/Subaru.htm IF you break a driveshaft, remove it and run in fwd until a replacement is found you are more likely to roast clutch or break axle IF you move engine back, it is alot of work to keep everything else working, trans tunnel ENLARGEMENT, FRONT axle life, shifter position totally a guess here, 1ft+ difference as the 5spd d/r has metal tube system to run the shifter whereas the 4spd d/r and s/r the shifter is mounted on part of the rear extension refer to http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0309091212a.jpg also read http://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12719 you will see the tube type shifter d/r dual/range also look at the attached pictures crappy quality - bean 5mp - definately not nikon d60 with nikkor micro lens :-\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 the last time i had a mid 60s bug in the driveway i had the entire front suspension off, and thought to myself,hmmm.this would be badass 4wd.but after crunching some numbers, i figured that i would have to build an entire subframe for the 4wd components ,and then put the bug floor pan on top. i mean , it is doable,but you can't just throw stuff like that together.you said you are on a budget?what type?cause that is something that will not be cheap to begin with. just curious....cheers, brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast I Drive Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 The 5 speed dual range (d/r) tranny is about 9 1/2" shorter than the 4 speed, roughly, I dont remember the number exactly, but its close to that. -Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subiemech85 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 SINGLE range trans for sale, essentially the same as far as mounting and controls as far as you are concerned, the d/r 4wd lever attaches to the main shifter bracket http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=95103 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundrawolf Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 the last time i had a mid 60s bug in the driveway i had the entire front suspension off, and thought to myself,hmmm.this would be badass 4wd.but after crunching some numbers, i figured that i would have to build an entire subframe for the 4wd components ,and then put the bug floor pan on top. i mean , it is doable,but you can't just throw stuff like that together.you said you are on a budget?what type?cause that is something that will not be cheap to begin with. just curious....cheers, brian Oh yes, I understand it's an undertaking. I am not obligated in any way to finish it quickly ($$). I can chip away at it. What I will do is to cut the BRAT down to the pan and begin using my computer to figure out what would be best. Making the pan rigid won't be too hard. As a matter of fact, I could use the EA71 engine and 4 speed single range and have it all together very quickly (less than a year) but I want to do it right. If I have to build a subframe (it doesn't have to be tubes) I will, and set the bug on top. What's wrong with that? Anyway, I won't know what route I will go until I get the floor out of the BRAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 you are missing the point.i did not say anything would be wrong anywhere.i am telling you right now,it is useless to cut the floor out of the brat.it will accomplish nothing but setting it free from its prison......you will need to build a subframe. nevermind.have fun,and post pics along the way.cheers, brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundrawolf Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share Posted March 13, 2009 What do you guys think about cutting the pan out of the BRAT and reinforcing it with 2x2" mild steel, then welding and or bolting it to the VW Beetle pan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast I Drive Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 It would be easier to build a subframe to bolt/weld to the VW chassis that you could bolt the engine/trans/suspension to rather than to try to meld the Brat floor pan to the bug chassis, and it would end up looking a lot cleaner and being much stronger and more stable in the end. The VW and the Brat share almost no dimensions Im sure, and you would have to do soooo much modifying to both pieces to put them together, Im fairly confident you would be much more satisfied building a subframe/rollcage affair to attach the Brat parts to the Beetle and I believe that is what Brian is trying to say as well -Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundrawolf Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share Posted March 13, 2009 It would be easier to build a subframe to bolt/weld to the VW chassis that you could bolt the engine/trans/suspension to rather than to try to meld the Brat floor pan to the bug chassis, and it would end up looking a lot cleaner and being much stronger and more stable in the end. The VW and the Brat share almost no dimensions Im sure, and you would have to do soooo much modifying to both pieces to put them together, Im fairly confident you would be much more satisfied building a subframe/rollcage affair to attach the Brat parts to the Beetle and I believe that is what Brian is trying to say as well -Bill It's been a long day, I'm sorry this has really confused me. By subframe, you mean a structure designed to increase the rigidity of the BRAT "Pan", or sheet metal that was removed from the underside of the BRAT that the drivetrain bolts to, and also serves as an interface between BRAT sheetmetal and Beetle pan.. I am confused because that is what I meant in the earlier post. It's been a long day! I drew a picture to try to clarify things. I apologize for the lack of quality of my mouse hand. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/stuff.jpg Also here are some more pics of the BRAT. Truly the rodents had made it home. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0310091615a.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0310091615b.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0310091615c.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0310091616.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0310091616a.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0310091616b.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0310091616c.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfmangk/0310091617.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subiemech85 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 leave the BRAT floorpan alone! build a SUBFRAME for the VW http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=92202&highlight=subframe&page=4 post 38 begins subframe!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 if you just build a 2x2 tubing frame,mount the brat drivetrain to it you will be golden......the contours of the vw pan are not going to be the same as the brat drivetrain setup.so, i would measure the widths of the subaru drivetrain,then build the frame to the contours of the vw floorpan.make sense? do not cut the brat apart,it will do you no good.more effort to find yourself back where you started. just so we are clear, measure subie drivetrain widths.write this down several times so you do not forget or lose it. build subaframe to specified widths,and vw floorpan contours(front to back,as you know, they are relatively flat).so not that hard. cheers, brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 It's Also here are some more pics of the BRAT. Truly the rodents had made it home. rl] they made it dinner too it looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundrawolf Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share Posted March 13, 2009 if you just build a 2x2 tubing frame,mount the brat drivetrain to it you will be golden......the contours of the vw pan are not going to be the same as the brat drivetrain setup.so, i would measure the widths of the subaru drivetrain,then build the frame to the contours of the vw floorpan.make sense?do not cut the brat apart,it will do you no good.more effort to find yourself back where you started. just so we are clear, measure subie drivetrain widths.write this down several times so you do not forget or lose it. build subaframe to specified widths,and vw floorpan contours(front to back,as you know, they are relatively flat).so not that hard. cheers, brian Ok cool. Now I understand. Look here: http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=114030&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 I dunno if I want to go as in depth as that guy did, but I may end up having to. It's OK anyway, I want to do this project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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