95 Legacy runs rough, does this pic give a clue?

[reeze]

Hi everyone it's me again, and this is probably the final chapter of my saga. Third thread on here detailing my efforts to diagnose & fix my 95 Legacy FWD w/205K, 2.2L engine. To make a very long story short(er), it's throwing 3 codes:

 

P0420 -- cat converter or O2 sensor issue

P0400 -- EGR system (blocked, or failed EGR valve)

P0303 -- misfire in cylinder 3

 

Symptoms are, the car runs OK most of the time but will then start running very rough & lose power. Twice it has stalled and was unable to be started for a while -- this sounds like overheating although the temp gauge never went above normal and coolant levels look OK. Definitely a mystery to me, maybe there's another reason the car wouldn't start until it cooled down. The exhaust does smell a little rich. No steam or obvious oil coming out though. Oil looks OK, the coolant looks a little "dirty" but still greenish.

 

So far I have done plugs, wires, PCV valve and fuel filter. Another user on here (ryverrat) wrote a great reply on one of my previous threads about a stuck EGR valve being a likely culprit. I checked it by working the diaphragm back & forth. At first it was a little hard to move but then seemed to loosen up -- or maybe I just started pushing harder, I can't be sure :-\. Saw some instructions for checking the EGR operation in a repair manual I bought -- brought the car to temp, then worked the throttle to raise & drop the rpms, I could see the EGR valve going in & out. So it does not look stuck. Wondering what could cause that code then. I know this is pretty unlikely, but I was thinking of going to Autozone to see if the EGR code cleared (I left the battery disconnected all night, and I'll make two trips going over 50 mph for at least a few minutes each.)

 

I was also getting ready to do the front O2 sensor but have been doing more reading online and now I'm starting to think it may be time to look for another car. Reason is that one of the old plugs I took out showed -- I **think** -- evidence of fouling which means an internal engine problem that may not be worth fixing in a car this old with this many miles. Yesterday I took a picture of the old plugs, which I marked as I took out, and I'm hoping someone with more experience than I (which is everyone on this board ) might be able to give me a more informed opinion):

 

 

Notice the lower left plug, it looks way different from the other three. I do not know the correct cylinder numbers so my first real question is -- is this one #3? That would correspond to the misfire code. (BTW you don't see gaskets on the two left plugs but they were there, just came out separately).

 

I suppose my second real question is -- am I correct in guessing that there is oil getting into this cylinder, and if so does that indicate an internal (and expensive) engine issue? If that's the case, it may not be worth throwing any more $$ at this car.

 

Thanks to everyone that takes the time to read my long posts and help me with their replies!

Edited March 16, 2009 by reeze

[vincentmoy]

If you did not mess up your order, it should be

 

3 4

1 2

Front

 

So the #1 SP looks different than the others

 

Vincent

[reeze]

If you did not mess up your order, it should be

 

3 4

1 2

Front

 

So the #1 SP looks different than the others

 

Vincent

Interesting, thanks. I did expect it to be #3 since that's the code I got for the cylinder misfire. Back to the drawing board, I guess.

 

[john in KY]

Sounds a lot like the coil pack is beginning to fail. The next time the engine starts to miss, take a close look at the coil pack. Bet you see arcing to the intake manifold.

[Rooster2]

Spark plugs just look like they needed to be replaced. Three were white-ish in color, so not oil fouled, and not burning oil. The fourth, and most worn out plug looks somewhat fouled, but may because just worn out. The gap on that plug is way out of spec.

 

If the engine has not been using/burning a lot of oil, then I would think there is no internal engine problems.

 

Suspect like John said, the coil pack may be your problem.

 

I seem to remember in an earlier post that you put some "dry gas" in the tank. Have you gone through several tanks of gasoline since then to eliminate the thought that you bought a bad tank of gas to cause the roughness?

[Gloyale]

EGR code is for the operation of hte vacuum solenoid that opens and closes to prevent EGR operation before warm up. (the computer can't really tell if the EGR valve itself is open or closed, not an electrical item)

 

So, find the solenoid on the under side of the manifold. Make sure it is plugged in, and then test it for resistance through. Also put 12v to it and see if opens and closes. Test by blowing through it.

 

The O2 code likely just means you're o2 needs replaced.

 

The misfire code will probably go away with new plugs and wires.

[reeze]

Thanks for the replies so far. I guess that's good news that the odd-looking spark plug doesn't look that bad. It seems strange that it wore differently though, unless it it was gapped differently from the others as your reply suggested.

 

To complicate things a little more, I just got back from running a few errands. About six trips in all, three of those on the highway going 55- 60 mph, and the check engine light has stayed OFF (as I said in my first post, I reset the ECU by disconnecting the battery overnight). So now I'm getting no codes at all. The first trip I took, driving my daughter to school, the rough running returned almost right away. However, every subsequent trip the engine behaved well (or seemed to anyway). One weirdness (which I've mentioned in my previous threads) is that when I got home I noticed the radiator fan running. I waited a while for it to cycle off but it didn't. The top radiator hose did seem pretty hot, but temp gauge never went above normal.

 

I'm on my way to a friend's place, he has ramps. Gonna put the car up and look underneath for any clues (I also want to see how many wires the O2 sensor has, in case I get an aftermarket. Yes, I've read the posts saying to use OEM, and I might still do that if I'm reasonably sure it's part of my rough running issue. My local Subie dealer wants $145 for it). Still grappling with the question of when I should cut my losses with a 15-year old car with close to 206K on it.

[reeze]

EGR code is for the operation of hte vacuum solenoid that opens and closes to prevent EGR operation before warm up. (the computer can't really tell if the EGR valve itself is open or closed, not an electrical item)

 

So, find the solenoid on the under side of the manifold. Make sure it is plugged in, and then test it for resistance through. Also put 12v to it and see if opens and closes. Test by blowing through it.

 

The O2 code likely just means you're o2 needs replaced.

 

The misfire code will probably go away with new plugs and wires.

Thanks! Your post came in while I was composing my last reply. I will attempt to do as you suggest -- I have a small multimeter. Not sure how I'll put 12 volts to it though.

 

I can tell you this: before the engine was at temp, opening & closing the throttle had no effect on the EGR piston. After the engine was warmed up, doing the same thing, I could see the valve move in & out. Does this indicate correct operation?

[Scoobywagon]

The misfire code could still be related to the fouled #1 plug. If I recall correctly, it uses a wasted spark system so that #1 provides a resistive load when firing #3 and #3 does the same for #1. In such a case, #1 would not provide a proper load for #3 and could cause a misfire.

 

If the EGR is opening and closing properly, then you're back to checking the solenoid. As was mentioned, the ECM can't tell if the EGR valve itself is open or closed as it is not an electrical item. The computer is looking at the solenoid and assuming that the position of the EGR valve corresponds to the readings it gets from the solenoid. If those readings are skewed somehow, the ECM will assume that there is an EGR problem.

 

Change the plugs, check the EGR valve and its solenoid. Short term, ignore the O2 code. It may be related to the plugs. If it doesn't clear after a tank or 2, then go ahead and change the O2 sensors

[OB99W]

The misfire code could still be related to the fouled #1 plug. If I recall correctly, it uses a wasted spark system so that #1 provides a resistive load when firing #3 and #3 does the same for #1. In such a case, #1 would not provide a proper load for #3 and could cause a misfire.

The wasted spark cylinder pairings are #1/#2 and #3/#4. If the plug for #1 were affecting another cylinder, it would be cylinder #2, not #3.

 

 

If the EGR is opening and closing properly, then you're back to checking the solenoid. As was mentioned, the ECM can't tell if the EGR valve itself is open or closed as it is not an electrical item. The computer is looking at the solenoid and assuming that the position of the EGR valve corresponds to the readings it gets from the solenoid. If those readings are skewed somehow, the ECM will assume that there is an EGR problem.

Actually, the ECU does an effective functional test of the EGR valve by determining the result of its operation. See http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/Emissions.pdf , specifically the P0400 info.

 

EGR flow control can be roughly tested without too much difficulty. Disconnect the vacuum hose at the EGR valve, and plug the hose. Attach another length of vacuum hose to the EGR valve -- with the engine warm and idling, apply a few inches of vacuum to the hose (either with a small hand pump or even via sucking by mouth on the end of the hose). You should see the valve pintle move, and the idle should significantly falter if the passages aren't blocked. If the valve moves but the idle doesn't obviously change, either the valve was already stuck partially open, or passages are obstructed.

[reeze]

The misfire code could still be related to the fouled #1 plug. If I recall correctly, it uses a wasted spark system so that #1 provides a resistive load when firing #3 and #3 does the same for #1. In such a case, #1 would not provide a proper load for #3 and could cause a misfire.

 

If the EGR is opening and closing properly, then you're back to checking the solenoid. As was mentioned, the ECM can't tell if the EGR valve itself is open or closed as it is not an electrical item. The computer is looking at the solenoid and assuming that the position of the EGR valve corresponds to the readings it gets from the solenoid. If those readings are skewed somehow, the ECM will assume that there is an EGR problem.

 

Change the plugs, check the EGR valve and its solenoid. Short term, ignore the O2 code. It may be related to the plugs. If it doesn't clear after a tank or 2, then go ahead and change the O2 sensors

Thanks for these tips but my check engine light has stayed off since I cleared the codes last night. And I just recently changed the plugs & wires. I did a fair amount of driving today, some around town & some highway. I know the EGR code is a "multi-trip" but I really think I satisfied the criteria for triggering the check engine light (two trips going 55 mph for a while) and it's still off. The car is still -- intermittently -- running like crap.

 

Tomorrow I'll get the codes read again at Autozone -- in case there are codes thrown that don't trigger the check engine light -- and depending what is read I may just call it a day and start looking for another car. I can't afford to go on a $400+ fishing expedition with a 15-year old car with 206K, and start replacing parts simply hoping I luck out and fix the right one. Today I brought the car to a buddy's house to put on his ramps so I could get a better look underneath. The O2 sensor is not very accessible at all, I'm not sure I could tackle this. I also brought the car to my wife's mechanic who warned me that it was probably not going to be cheap to fix -- about $200 to read the codes and spend an hour diagnosing. And that's before any parts & the labor to install or replace. I trust this guy, he's honest but not cheap (car repair in general is very expensive in the northern NY suburbs. The local Sub dealer gets $104/hr labor).

 

The bottom line is that I've gotten way more than my money's worth from this car. Bought it five years ago with 60K, for $3400! Show me any Legacy today with 60K on it for that cheap, I don't think one exists.

 

Thanks to everyone who's spent the time reading my super-long posts (this one being no exception ) and trying to help me out. I may have a few more questions after tomorrow, but it does look like the end of the road is approaching!

[1997reduxe]

Just my two cents, but sometimes on these self-diagnoses and via web it's easy to get so into it that you have no idea.

 

Have you taken it to Subaru (just for diagnosis) or to a good Suby shop?

 

Maybe specializing in foreign cars.

 

I'd think it'd be worth checking it out by a few "experts" before getting rid of it.

 

Thass all...

 

'97

[reeze]

Just my two cents, but sometimes on these self-diagnoses and via web it's easy to get so into it that you have no idea.

 

Have you taken it to Subaru (just for diagnosis) or to a good Suby shop?

 

Maybe specializing in foreign cars.

 

I'd think it'd be worth checking it out by a few "experts" before getting rid of it.

 

Thass all...

 

'97

Thanks, yea I was thinking about having a Subie shop look at the car. The question is not if a good shop could diagnose & fix the car. It's whether it's worth it for me to fix a car this old with this many miles. If I made that commitment, I would then probably need to do a second timing belt, and then there's potentially more that can start going wrong on a car this old. If I had the knowledge and mechanical aptitude of many on this forum I'd probably go for it, but that's just not the case . I think it may be better for me to take the money I'd put into repairs and put it towards a new(er) Legacy.

 

I would up selling my previous Legacy (a '92 FWD) to someone on this forum who saw my posts here 5 years ago when I was asking the same type of question -- fix or move on -- although that one had been in an accident and had some major cosmetic issues (the engine was doing fine though). Anyone wanna make me an offer? It has some body damage and the engine leaks some oil, but the heads seem intact and when it's not exhibiting its current symptoms it runs as fine as any car with 206K can (imo of course!).

 

Unfortunately it looks like the end of the line for me being able to get a Legacy newer than '99 or so with a 2.2 engine. Do they exist?

Edited March 17, 2009 by reeze

[johnceggleston]

i understand your problem and it sounds like you have hit your limit. but you need to answer 4 money questions before you change cars out of frustration.

1. what will it cost to fix this car?

2. what can you sell this car for?

3. what will it cost to buy a different car?

4. which is cheaper?

 

it's not a question of is the car worth the repairs, it's a question of how much per mile??

 

they phased out the 2.2L around 2000.

Edited March 17, 2009 by johnceggleston

[reeze]

i understand your problem and it sounds like you have hit your limit. but you need to answer 4 money questions before you change cars out of frustration.

1. what will it cost to fix this car?

2. what can you sell this car for?

3. what will it cost to buy a different car?

4. which is cheaper?

 

it's not a question of is the car worth the repairs, it's a question of how much per mile??

 

they phased out the 2.2L around 2000.

Thanks John, I appreciate the reply. I can see that in the short term fixing this car is cheaper than buying another one but -- unless I'm completely misunderstanding here -- after this car is fixed I'll be down probably $400 or more, have a 15 year old car with 206K needing a timing belt and probably other stuff, and if I'm lucky I'll get another year or two (I put about 28K/yr on a car). Cost per mile-wise, I can see how I'd be ahead if I fix this one -- I paid $3400 5 years ago, that was a serious bit of luck. But the simple fact is that I want peace of mind too. I'm a musician and I drive a lot to gigs, late at night. I carpool kids to school every day and take care of my 9-yr-old after school. I'm not in the position, financially or time-wise to deal with an older car prone to issues. Car repair in my area is very expensive. I know I could get lucky, fix the current problem, do the timing belt and get another year or two but I've been buying Legacys mainly because they've been trouble-free (all of them had the 2.2 engine though, something I may have to give up if I get another one).

 

My first two Legacys went to about 180K each, cut short by accidents. This is the most miles I've ever driven a car. So yes, even if I pay $600 to fix this car and it dies one week later, my cost per mile is still low -- but then I have $600 less towards my next Leg!

[reeze]

Slim pickings right now for Legacy sedans with 60-75K miles in my area. Most are wagons, and it seems like I would need to go for a '99 or '98 if I wanted the 2.2L. That's a little older than I like, but I haven't seen any of those anyway. So maybe I'll be forced to re-think my plans and fix mine, hope it holds up, and keep an eye out for one that best fits my needs.

[naru]

Hi everyone it's me again, and this is probably the final chapter of my saga. Third thread on here detailing my efforts to diagnose & fix my 95 Legacy FWD w/205K, 2.2L engine. To make a very long story short(er), it's throwing 3 codes:

 

P0420 -- cat converter or O2 sensor issue

P0400 -- EGR system (blocked, or failed EGR valve)

P0303 -- misfire in cylinder 3

 

 

 

 

Notice the lower left plug, it looks way different from the other three. I do not know the correct cylinder numbers so my first real question is -- is this one #3? quote]

 

Don`t think it is the main problem,but,the bad plug looks like it was too loose and leaking a little compression.Note the baked on carbon deposits above the gasket.Might be part/all of the reason for the lower combustion temp indicated by the darker tip.

 

The O2 and misfire codes combined w/poor running at higher speed,higher mileage, and infrequent filter maintenance suggest a weak fuel pump to me.Well worth checking fuel pressure.

 

If it idled rough,I would suspect the EGR of not seating properly sometimes.

[naru]

Hi everyone it's me again, and this is probably the final chapter of my saga. Third thread on here detailing my efforts to diagnose & fix my 95 Legacy FWD w/205K, 2.2L engine. To make a very long story short(er), it's throwing 3 codes:

 

P0420 -- cat converter or O2 sensor issue

P0400 -- EGR system (blocked, or failed EGR valve)

P0303 -- misfire in cylinder 3

 

 

 

 

Notice the lower left plug, it looks way different from the other three. I do not know the correct cylinder numbers so my first real question is -- is this one #3? quote]

 

Don`t think it is the main problem,but,the bad plug looks like it was too loose and leaking a little compression.Note the baked on carbon deposits above the gasket.Might be part/all of the reason for the lower combustion temp indicated by the darker tip.

 

The O2 and misfire codes combined w/poor running at higher speed,higher mileage, and infrequent filter maintenance suggest a weak fuel pump to me.Well worth checking fuel pressure.

 

If it idled rough,I would suspect the EGR of not seating properly sometimes.

[Gene J]

Hi everyone it's me again, and this is probably the final chapter of my saga. Third thread on here detailing my efforts to diagnose & fix my 95 Legacy FWD w/205K, 2.2L engine. To make a very long story short(er), it's throwing 3 codes:

 

P0420 -- cat converter or O2 sensor issue

P0400 -- EGR system (blocked, or failed EGR valve)

P0303 -- misfire in cylinder 3

 

 

 

 

Notice the lower left plug, it looks way different from the other three. I do not know the correct cylinder numbers so my first real question is -- is this one #3? quote]

 

Don`t think it is the main problem,but,the bad plug looks like it was too loose and leaking a little compression.Note the baked on carbon deposits above the gasket.Might be part/all of the reason for the lower combustion temp indicated by the darker tip.

 

The O2 and misfire codes combined w/poor running at higher speed,higher mileage, and infrequent filter maintenance suggest a weak fuel pump to me.Well worth checking fuel pressure.

 

If it idled rough,I would suspect the EGR of not seating properly sometimes.

The lower left plug is missing the gasket sealer. That would explain the color, blow by etc.

[johnceggleston]

The lower left plug is missing the gasket sealer. That would explain the color, blow by etc.

 

nice catch.

[reeze]

The lower left plug is missing the gasket sealer. That would explain the color, blow by etc.

Thanks for the input and the tip regarding the fuel pump. Someone else mentioned the possibility of a sticky fuel pressure regulator.

 

I've been driving the car and it's getting worse. It runs rough almost all the time, and the incidents where it loses power (are these misfires? shows you what I know!) are still happening, maybe 4-5 times during a 20 minute ride. The check engine light has still not come back on since I cleared the codes. Is it possible the ECU is throwing any of my original codes (PO420 -- cat converter or o2 sensor, 400 -- EGR, 303 -- misfire in cylinder 3) and the check engine would NOT light?

 

BTW the car, when cold, always starts up right away and most of the time it idles nicely, but when these issue start I do notice sometimes the tach going up & down a bit (and this is when the car is likely to stall)...so the fuel pressure regulator, or the pump itself, is sounding more like the culprit. I wish I had the test equipment to check this out but I don't.

 

And again, when I made it home tonight, both fans are going, which may or may not be normal. Temp gauge never gets beyond the middle though.

 

Now, the missing gasket: you'll notice that BOTH the plugs on the left don't have them. As I explained in my original post of this thread, those came out separately -- I guess they were stuck in the spark plug well. I got them out before installing the new plugs of course!

Edited March 18, 2009 by reeze

[Olnick]

Anyone think it could possibly be the engine coolant temperature sensor? Symptoms sound a bit like when my went bad, but I don't recall whether it threw a code or not.

 

Chime in, please.

[naru]

You can rent a gauge but probably not cheaper than buying this one.

I own one of these high dollar items myself.Works well.Sell it for a profit when your done.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fuel-Injector-Injection-Pump-Pressure-Tester-Gauge-K07_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1171Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem230331186568QQitemZ230331186568QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools

[reeze]

You can rent a gauge but probably not cheaper than buying this one.

I own one of these high dollar items myself.Works well.Sell it for a profit when your done.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fuel-Injector-Injection-Pump-Pressure-Tester-Gauge-K07_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1171Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem230331186568QQitemZ230331186568QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools

Cool, thanks! I hope the instructions are designed for noobs like me!

 

Also the description says it doesn't work with several brands, I assume the Sub is not one of those (Bosch, CIS-Jetronic).

[Rooster2]

Cool, thanks! I hope the instructions are designed for noobs like me!

 

Also the description says it doesn't work with several brands, I assume the Sub is not one of those (Bosch, CIS-Jetronic).

 

 

No, Subie does not use the CIS Jetronic system. That was only used by German car manufacturers back in the 80's to early 90's. I owned several Audi/VWs during that era, and still own an 87 Audi 5000 that is CIS, so I know.