Bad Brian Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Auto. tran. On slow speed turns there is an obvious problem whereby the car seem to be fighting the turn. It almost feels like driving with all flat tires, loose tires, or tires pointing in different directions. I have put the car up to listen for wheel bearing noise, smooth spinning. The car has 55k and never been hit. My mom has owned it 8 yrs and in that time only she and I have driven it and only me for the past 5 yrs. so I would know of any incidents. Is there a center clutch or such that is part of the AWD that could cause this. Bushings? I cannot drive it AND walk beside it listening to isolate the problem. I would like to have an idea of the problem to A) fix it myself be somewhat informed and prepared when I take it to the non-dealer Subaru specialist near me, which I will be doing anyway for the timing belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hondasucks Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 What you are experiencing is known as "torque bind" it means that the AWD is engaging for some reason. There are a few things that could be causing this, one is a bad "duty solenoid C" or transfer solenoid (Your "AT OIL TEMP" light will blink on startup if it's an electrical problem with this solenoid), another is your transfer clutches are stuck together (can be caused by running different sized tires, improper towing, unevenly worn tires, or by running a donut spare without putting the FWD fuse in), and the third problem is inside the transfer housing on the transmission, there are sealing rings that when they go bad, they allow fluid to pass and engage the transfer clutches. Any of these things will require removal of the transfer housing of the transmission, and are best left to a Subaru mechanic. Replacement of the duty solenoid, if I remember correctly, requires removing the pan as well as you have to disconnect the wiring for it. It is possible that there is a wiring issue external to the transmission causing the problem, but it's more likely internal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Brian Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 thanks, that is a comprehensive answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Brian Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 Okay, the fuse is in and she is moving nice and smoothly. Thanks again! I can drive the Subaru now until I find out how to get my CIVIC running, LOL. It quit on me Sat. evening. Apparently it is the coil but I cannot remove it because a terminal screw is stuck tight. Sprays have not yet helped and I will strip the head if I keep on trying. As much as I like Japanese vehicles my Chevy V8s and Dad's Fords and Lincolns were easier to work on although I did not always think so at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hondasucks Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Okay, the fuse is in and she is moving nice and smoothly. Thanks again! I can drive the Subaru now until I find out how to get my CIVIC running, LOL. Don't drive it continuously like this, it will eventually burn out the transfer solenoid. Since it works with the FWD fuse in, it's not as serious as it could be. Does it ALWAYS do it, or only on certain turns? Try taking the fuse out and doing several figure eights in a parking lot, sometimes this helps, if the clutches are sticking. Do you have a check engine light on? Or does your "AT OIL TEMP" light blink when you turn the key on? According to the service manual, the following will cause binding on turns: 1) Control module 2) Vehicle speed sensor 1 3) Vehicle speed sensor 2 4) Throttle position sensor 5) ATF temperature sensor 6) Transfer clutch 7) Transfer valve 8) Duty solenoid C 9) ATF deterioration We've ruled out 6,7, 8, and probably 1, since with the fuse in, it works normally. 2,3,4 and 5 would most likely cause a check engine light, unless they are producing valid but erroneous data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Brian Posted April 21, 2009 Author Share Posted April 21, 2009 No CEL or AT Temp lights! So, hopefully it will be the fluid. I have Plenty of Dexron III on hand because i was planning to change both cars anyway. The Subaru goes first! The car is a 98 and has only 55K, I doubt if any ATF change has ever been done, definitely none since my mom got it in 2001 with 38K or so. I hope the weather cooperates tomorrow or Wednesday. In reading some other threads on Torque Bind I saw something about doing backward figure 8s, is that preferred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Brian Posted April 22, 2009 Author Share Posted April 22, 2009 This torque bind problem (now I know what to call it) has been on plenty of threads in the past I see. I changed the ATF, I got over 4 qts. out.The ATF looked like used motor oil but thinner. I took out the FWD fuse and took the car around the block, no difference, then I took it out for a longer ride to a school but teachers had stayed late and I could not do any figure 8s in the lot. I did make a point of doing low speed hard turns and there clearly is a difference but not completely cleared up. It is not my imagination so we will see how things progress. I also am still trying to get the new ATF to the correct level. I will check back in and thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Drain and replace 2x more and see....cheaper than fixing it. Be careful refilling as it's easy to overfill...I've read on here that the difference between Low and Full is about a pint - not much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Good going, Brian--hope it's a sign that it is "fixable." Might be a good idea to do another one or two ATF changes asap, a virtual flush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 running in FWD is not dangerous. i've done it and know tons of other folks that have as well. if you need to, do it and don't sweat it. subaru's aren't bad to work on and will need little work if maintained well. anything new seems much harder, that's normal (learning curve). if the bolt is stripped that's probably because it's rusty/seized, that's not a "subaru" problem, but a northeast problem. i hate rusty bolts. hopefully a few more miles will free it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinslayer02 Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 I wanted to say THANKS! I have a '99 Legacy that had the same shudder when turning. With the FWD fuse in, there were no issues. The dealer wanted $1500 to replace the "transmission roller bearing", and said that it must have worn grooves in it. After reading these posts, I changed the ATF fluid 3x and drove for just 10 minutes between each drain/refill- PROBLEM SOLVED for $30. Thanks for saving me $1500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Bad Brian, Are the tires on the car all the same and evenly worn. If not the trouble may be with them. As far as your Civic is concerned, have you checked to see if the coil is getting power to it and the minus side of the coil is pulsing (with a test light connected) as you crank the engine? If you haven't checked the operation these things yet then the coil may not be the trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pontiac6KSTEAWD Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 On your Honda... If it is a SOHC Honda engine, they are known to have O-ring problems at the distributor, and floods the cap area with oil. This causes a no fire issue. Just a FYI... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hondasucks Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 On your Honda... If it is a SOHC Honda engine, they are known to have O-ring problems at the distributor, and floods the cap area with oil. This causes a no fire issue. Just a FYI... I know some of them also like to puke the ignitor module, it's inside the distributor. I've heard the brown colored ones are the ones that go out... I had a 87 Civic Si that had a no start condition, turned out the timing belt had jumped a few teeth. (Yes, Hondasucks drove a Honda... It was a free car, and it was either drive it, or drive my diesel truck that got 12mpg in Wyoming.... Once gas went down I sold the Honda for $300 and bought a rusty F100 with a big block that got 8mpg ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Brian Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 HEY GUYS, the Subaru is at least 90% cured after a second ATF change and getting the air pressure within 1/2lb. on all tires. ( Maybe it is entirely cured and I am imagining small shudders!) Believe it or not it still has the original tires. I would not have had my mom get new tires until the turning problem got taken care of but I also did not realize the relationship between the 2 issues of tires and torque bind. I will do another ATF change this week. Thanks to a dip in the driveway right in front of the garage I can drain the AT pan without jacking up the car or using the ramps! I just reach in and can reach the drain plug. Because the Subaru is running (and tomorrow I will replace 2 belts on it) and also the weather suddenly becoming seasonally hot here I have procrastinated on the Honda repairs since it is sitting out in the sun and cannot move. The Honda coil and ICM tested good, they are back in, but distributor is still open. I bought a new multimeter and eventually will go A-Z on all the helpful ideas i have gotten here and Honda-tech before I give in and have it towed someplace. Thanks again for all the input. I WILL RETURN AS NECESSARY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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