lostinthe202 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 '96 OBW, 200k, 5spd, 2.2L On my way home from work, I stopped off for groceries and when i tried to restart, it just cranked and cranked. I tried again a few seconds later and it fired up as normal. I've been doing searching and reading on "no start" conditions and the crank angle sensor jumps out at me due to it's tendency to crack and that the ECU won't pulse the injectors unless it sees something from the sensor. I say this because I was getting that really fast crank like when there isn't even the attempt at a start. The curious thing (if it's the sensor, or any sensor) is that I didn't get a CEL. So... can any sensor cause the car to not start yet not throw a code? Possibly relevant info, I recently had my trans out and when I put it back in and tried to start the car for the test drive it wouldn't start. I found a junction plug unplugged, plugged it back in and it fired right up. I don't know what the plug was for, but before I found it, I could've sworn the car was not getting any fuel (that fast crank again) and I initially suspected the fuel pump. After a lot of cranking, the plugs were bone dry. I'm not too savy about how FI cars work while starting so maybe that was normal, but it seemed like if fuel was being injected it couldn't have dried that fast as I removed a plug immediately after trying. I have rechecked that plug and all other plugs I touched during the trans job. Thanks for any input! Will- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 can any sensor cause the car to not start yet not throw a code? I've seen it happen when the crank position sensor was dying. On more than one car, and not just Subarus. Typical failure mode for a dying crank (or cam) position sensor, in my experience, is the car not starting after a "hot soak". You drive the car with no problem, make a quick dash in to a store for a few groceries, and then the car won't start. Wait 20 minutes for it to cool down, and everything is fine. To diagnose, you need to measure the signal with a voltmeter (an oscilloscope is better) when it's in failure mode. Which only tends to happen in grocery store parking lots . On a cold start, the signal looks normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted April 22, 2009 Author Share Posted April 22, 2009 To diagnose, you need to measure the signal with a voltmeter (an oscilloscope is better) when it's in failure mode. Which only tends to happen in grocery store parking lots . On a cold start, the signal looks normal. Lucky for me I opted for the dash mounted oscilloscope!! All kidding aside thanks for the input. I had another crank angle sensor kicking around someplace, but I was just looking for it and I can't find it anywhere!! I don't like throwing parts at something that isn't concrete, but I depend on this car so I figured to just drive around with a bunch of sensors in the glove box! Will- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 There are some plugs with a single wire under the dash that should not be plugged together unless the test or diagnostic modes are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted April 22, 2009 Author Share Posted April 22, 2009 There are some plugs with a single wire under the dash that should not be plugged together unless the test or diagnostic modes are needed. Is this post meant for me? ...... I was hoping you would jump in, however I have not done anything inside the car. All of the trans related electrical stuff was in the engine bay rear passenger side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I was refer to the plug you connected to get the engine running. The plug you worked on sounds like it wasn't what I was refering to. The NO START problem you had may have been due to a faulty fuel pump relay. They can be intermittent. It may be a good idea to replace the fuel filter also. I would start with those things at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 can any sensor cause the car to not start yet not throw a code?yes, i've seen it happen before as well. if you get a no start again you could turn the car off then turn the key on (engine off) and listen for the fuel pump. it should cycle for one second. i've never had a problem so i haven't paid attention but you can hear it in older models, not sure about EJ's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted April 22, 2009 Author Share Posted April 22, 2009 The NO START problem you had may have been due to a faulty fuel pump relay. They can be intermittent. It may be a good idea to replace the fuel filter also. I would start with those things at least. The fuel filter is only a few months old so I probably won't touch that, but a fuel pump relay sounds like cheap insurance. yes, i've seen it happen before as well. if you get a no start again you could turn the car off then turn the key on (engine off) and listen for the fuel pump. it should cycle for one second. i've never had a problem so i haven't paid attention but you can hear it in older models, not sure about EJ's. I feel like I was hearing it, but I'm not sure that was what I was hearing. I'll try flipping up the back seat, that might make it more audible. Thanks fellas! Will- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I suspect Coolant temp sensor. When they short out to ground, the signal the ECU gets is interpreted as a REALLY warm engine, and the ECU tries a lean starting map. Easy test is to simply unplug it (CTS) and try to start the car. It will give you a CEL but should start, rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 '96 OBW, 200k, 5spd, 2.2L On my way home from work, I stopped off for groceries and when i tried to restart, it just cranked and cranked. I tried again a few seconds later and it fired up as normal. I've been doing searching and reading on "no start" conditions and the crank angle sensor jumps out at me due to it's tendency to crack and that the ECU won't pulse the injectors unless it sees something from the sensor. I say this because I was getting that really fast crank like when there isn't even the attempt at a start. The curious thing (if it's the sensor, or any sensor) is that I didn't get a CEL. So... can any sensor cause the car to not start yet not throw a code? Possibly relevant info, I recently had my trans out and when I put it back in and tried to start the car for the test drive it wouldn't start. I found a junction plug unplugged, plugged it back in and it fired right up. I don't know what the plug was for, but before I found it, I could've sworn the car was not getting any fuel (that fast crank again) and I initially suspected the fuel pump. After a lot of cranking, the plugs were bone dry. I'm not too savy about how FI cars work while starting so maybe that was normal, but it seemed like if fuel was being injected it couldn't have dried that fast as I removed a plug immediately after trying. I have rechecked that plug and all other plugs I touched during the trans job. Thanks for any input! Will- You wont get a code because the car never started. If you can get codes on cranking you will get a code for almost every sensor there is. Blu does this, and he does it only in the winter when the temp is between 35-45 degrees. he does not do it often. I beleive its a crank sensor, but he never does it so I can trace it. I will most likely replace the crank sensor just because it has 245,000 miles on it. He will not do it at any other time during the year. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted April 22, 2009 Author Share Posted April 22, 2009 Easy test is to simply unplug it (CTS) and try to start the car. It will give you a CEL but should start, rich. alright, if I can get it to do it regularly... or rather once it just won't start (hehe)... I'll give that a shot. You wont get a code because the car never started. If you can get codes on cranking you will get a code for almost every sensor there is. Blu does this, and he does it only in the winter when the temp is between 35-45 degrees. he does not do it often. I beleive its a crank sensor, but he never does it so I can trace it. I will most likely replace the crank sensor just because it has 245,000 miles on it. He will not do it at any other time during the year. nipper Man do I looooove intermittent problems! Due to having never owned a new car in my life, I have been in the habit of carrying a tool kit since I was a teenager. I hate to just start replacing sensors, but seems like 200k is a good run and at least the crank sensor doesn't seem that expensive so maybe if the cam, TPS, and coolant temp aren't either I'll just pop for all three and carry them in the glove box. Any others that go squirrelly and can strand you? I've run every vehicle I've purchased as a daily driver into the ground and I don't intend this one to be any different. I'm shooting for at least 300k for this one. In fact I like it so much that when I hit it, I will probably buy a rebuilt engine for it. But then being an east coast car, I'll have to see how the rust is by then. OK, now I'm just rambling. Thanks for the input! Will- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I've run every vehicle I've purchased as a daily driver into the ground and I don't intend this one to be any different. I'm shooting for at least 300k for this one. In fact I like it so much that when I hit it, I will probably buy a rebuilt engine for it. But then being an east coast car, I'll have to see how the rust is by then. OK, now I'm just rambling. Thanks for the input! Will- And thats why Blu got a rebuilt engine at 191,000 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted April 27, 2009 Author Share Posted April 27, 2009 As an avid searcher, I hate it when a post just gets dropped and the result of a similar problem as the one I'm searching for doesn't get closure. So I thought I would assure all those with my particular personality quirk that I will update this when new info becomes available. But so far, I have not had a repeat of the behavior. I have AAA so I'm not inclined to throw parts at something that has not yet made itself known and would rather have a crap day that costs me nothing but a tip to the tow truck driver then throw money at a problem that isn't real yet. My main bafflement and why I posted was that I didn't get a CEL, but Nipper's post about how you don't get a CEL until after the car is running makes sense as during startup all the conditions that the ECU is looking for are not present yet so I could see how it would want to complain and how they must've put built in a provision for that. Anyway, I'll say more when I have more, Thanks as always!! Will- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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