Spark Plug Change Problem

[sid_vicious]

Hi everyone,

I set out to change my spark plugs today (03 Outback Sport 2.5L) and was feeling downright proud of myself until I got to the last one. The 5/8 spark plug socket does not seem to fit on the plug. It's the plug behind the washer reservoir, and I've removed the reservoir to be sure I have enough room to work.

 

On the first three plugs I could feel the rubber grommet go over the plug and then a solid engagement of the metal socket, but on this one I seem to only feel the rubber grommet. When I spin the socket it feels like the rubber is just spinning on the porcelain part of the socket. I've never replaced them before, so I have no idea what's in there. The other three were Autolite plugs, but is it possible there's a different size head on the plug in this cylinder? I can't visually check it due to the angle, but maybe I can get some kind of dental mirror to have a peek inside.

 

Has anyone seen anything like this before? I ran a search and found this thread and the topic of an "antifouler":

http://ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=96993

I really hope that's not the case.

 

Thanks for the help.

[Rooster2]

I can't imagine anything other than using a 5/8" socket, as you have been doing. Try using other size deep well sockets, see if that might works. Keep us posted on what you finally remove. I am curious to know.

[Gloyale]

I'll bet the last person to change the plugs left the rubber sleeve from his socket slipped over the end of the plug. it is a real PITA when that happens

 

Remove the intake tube for better viewing access

[davebugs]

Please examine the end of the plug wire. Compare it to another plug wire.

 

Make sure nothing is stuck onto the spark plug that you can't see (like from the spark plug boot). I've had this happen to me on other cars. And occasionally have had the problem when installing new plugs that the rubber bushing from the socket sometimes stays on the spark plug and I can't get the wire on.

 

LL I was typing at the same time Gloyale was.

 

Also the non-fouler - while it wouldn't be good news I'd be very willing to bet isn't your problem.

[sid_vicious]

Sure enough, there's a freakin' rubber boot from a spark plug socket in there.

I've tried getting an awl in there to hook on it and drag it out, but I'm worried about scratching the inside of the spark plug well. Is there any danger in doing that? So far I've had no luck but that's about the only way I can think of to extract it.

 

Any other methods?

 

Thanks for the replies.

[davebugs]

Hose pliers.

 

Sometimes using a standard deep socket. I'd recommend AGAINST removing the rubber from your socket and using it. I don't think it would ever be "tight" again.

 

Not a whole lot to scratch to worry about that I can think of. Only perhaps a lip where the rubber rings are in the valve covers.

 

It's gonna be stuck from heat and so on.

 

If the car was missing - you've found the problem. Did they alter the pulg wire?

 

You may even try cutting it with a razor knife?

[Gloyale]

Hose pliers.

 

Sometimes using a standard deep socket. I'd recommend AGAINST removing the rubber from your socket and using it. I don't think it would ever be "tight" again.

 

 

 

I have one socket with no rubber for installing DOHC 2.5 plugs.

 

I WILL NOT risk losing the friggin rubber in there again. I had to unbolt exhaust and engine mounts and lift engine to get access to fish it out.

 

Now.....here we are talking about SOHC 2.5s, which have MUCH eaiser to access plugs.

 

To fish it out, I fashioned a long hook out an old bicycle spoke. Bent it over on itself, hammered it thin, slid it in next to the boot. Spray some wd-40 in first.

[sid_vicious]

Ha! The spoke method is exactly what I've been trying. I'm a bicycle mechanic by trade, so I have access to plenty of spokes.

 

I'll keep trying with the spoke I suppose.l

[Gloyale]

Ha! The spoke method is exactly what I've been trying. I'm a bicycle mechanic by trade, so I have access to plenty of spokes.

 

I'll keep trying with the spoke I suppose.l

 

The trick is to bend it back to a really tight hook, then hammer or even better, grind it, down to be flat enough to slide in between the rubber and the spark plug, then rotate the hook outward.

[OB99W]

[...]I'd recommend AGAINST removing the rubber from your socket and using it.[...]

Using a spark plug socket with the rubber insert removed is a good approach, and it may be worth sacrificing a socket to the cause. Once the plug is out, if the original insert will no longer be secure enough in the socket to trust that it won't do exactly what has already happened, either glue it in place or buy another socket.

[davebugs]

Actually I was at Pep Boys one day and they had generic spark plug sockets and I bought one just to sacrifice next time this happened to me. Hated to take a chance at ruining a good S-K swivel spark plug socket.

 

One time on a Suby I had to reinstall the plug a few times on Cyl #4 on a DOHC due to the rubber problem. Not a whole lotta fun.

 

But yea - as frustration mounts taking a chance on removing the bushing from your existing socket (if you can't find a cheap one) may work.

 

I used a deep well impact socket last time I had this issue. I figured they were less restrictive in the middle of the socket to get over the rubber on the plug.

 

Anyway you look at it it's not a pleasant job. And I doubt the plug wire was fitting well.

 

Never did hear if he looked at the plug wire - he may be needing one of them as well.

[sid_vicious]

I looked at the plug wire, and its boot is in bad shape...because I must have ripped part of it off when pulling the wire off the plug.

 

This leads me to believe it's going to be even more difficult than it would be if the problem were just the rubber from a spark plug socket. There are two reasons for this:

 

1. The spark plug wire boot is bigger in diameter than the liner from a plug socket, to the point where it pretty much completely fills up the inside of the tube. This makes it impossible to use a 5/8 spark plug socket with no liner. I tried sacrificing a plug socket, but it just hits the rubber left in there before grabbing the spark plug.

 

2. That thing is really stuck on the plug, which is why it broke in the first place. I can't seem to dig it out.

 

I don't have a deep 5/8 socket that's NOT a spark plug socket, and I noticed that the actual 5/8 hex fitting on a plug socket doesn't go very deep, so maybe I'll try a deep socket that has its 5/8 hex fitting running way down into the socket.l

[Rooster2]

Would it help to loosen motor mounts, then jack up the engine on the side that you are working on to give better visibility and access to the spark plug hole? If so, maybe use a propane torch to burn out the rubber insert?

 

Would cutting the rubber with an exacto knife be of any help?

[sid_vicious]

I haven't tried jacking up the engine to get a better angle at it, but I've tried using just about everything I can think of that's even remotely barb-like to try getting a grip on that bugger. I got a few small chunks out today, but no real significant progress.

 

I've thought about burning it out, but there appears to be some sort of seal at the very opening of the spark plug well that I'd hate to damage. Has anyone ever tried melting one of these out?

 

The torch option sounds like escalation to a place I'm not sure I should be going. I guess my only option is to have the f'n thing towed to a shop where I can pay one billion dollars to have it removed.

 

I guess whoever last replaced the plugs has never heard of a little thing called dielectric grease. That sucks.

[davebugs]

Update your profile with a state.

 

Perhaps someone can make a local recommendation.

[ericem]

Whenever I replaced spark plugs usually it would pop off that rubber part, but i was always able to get it out very easily, just shoving the socket back in. Only other thing I would think off to grab bits of it off is this grabber tool. It actually graps very tight, I am sure you can shread it carefully, don't worry about damaging the plug itself. Even some really long needle nose pliers.

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94162

 

I would get one with like 3 claws instead, works alot better!

[sid_vicious]

I think I've confused the issue, since I originally thought it was the rubber part of the spark plug socket. It's actually the broken-off end of the wire boot, which is uber stuck on the spark plug.

 

I keep coming back to just trying to ram a plug socket with no rubber liner down on top of it, hopefully squishing the rubber down enough to grab the plug. No workie. It's seriously bonded to the plug.

 

I got a good hold on it with the bent head of a bicycle spoke at one point, but it would NOT budge. I clamped a vise grip on the spoke and yanked really hard, rocking the car but not getting any movement. Then I said lots of swear words.

[tcspeer]

Whenever I replaced spark plugs usually it would pop off that rubber part, but i was always able to get it out very easily, just shoving the socket back in. Only other thing I would think off to grab bits of it off is this grabber tool. It actually graps very tight, I am sure you can shread it carefully, don't worry about damaging the plug itself. Even some really long needle nose pliers.

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94162

 

I would get one with like 3 claws instead, works alot better!

 

 

The long needle nose pliers sound like a good ideal, but I think the long needle nose hose pliers would work well also if there is room to get them in there. I use these to remove the plug wires on mine.

[sid_vicious]

Ah hell, maybe I'll get a set of long needle nose pliers and give that a shot.

[Mugs]

Snap-On makes a spark plug socket that does not have a boot. The plug just sits in there and then when your done tighting just wiggle the socket and it releases. I think I paid about 20 bucks for it off the truck when he came by the shop on his regular weekly visit. I love it, and it works great. As far as re-installing I just drop the plugs in the whole (apply anti-seize to the threads first) and then hand start them with the same socket and a wobbly extension. Also this socket works great just the same for removal. I will get the part number and post it for you.

I hate to say it, but you may need to remove the valve cover just to give you a bit more room and then maybe you can get a pair of needle nose in there, or a thin knife or something to remove that stubborn socket rubber. Hope this helps.

[davebugs]

I mentioned early on in this thread that it was likely part of the boot from the plug wire. Otherwise he'd of had a miss since the wire wouldn't have fit over the rubber "bushing" from the spark plug socket.

 

I also recommended hose pliers that I posted a pic of here in a favorite tool thread. The expensive ones (Sunax?) are bent almost 90 degrees at the and. The cheap ones (Harbor Freight) are almost straight but about 1/3 the price. May be worth the cheap pair to heat and bend.

 

That plug wire boot it tougher than the rubber sleeve in a socket. You may also try a razor knife(a thin one) as I suggested early on.

 

Good luck - unpleasant job. I usually just pull the engine at this point and reseal it, etc since pulling the engine doesnt' take that long and is WAY less frustrating.

[sid_vicious]

You definitely called the broken boot. That's the problem for sure, and a different animal than the lost spark plug liner.

 

I had to get somewhere after a while of fighting with the broken boot, so I tried popping the connector back on the plug and it ran fine with no misfires. Then when I went to have another go at it that night, the metal connector inside the boot came out when I pulled it off. Figures.

 

So here's a question. If I give up and decide to take it to a shop, can I get a new set of plug wires, save the one that I need for after the broken rubber is out, and cut the end off one of the other old ones so it fits well enough for me to drive it to the shop? I know the wires are numbered, but is that just so you don't mix up connecting a cylinder to the wrong spot on the coil?

 

I'll have a go with some pliers when I find a set, and maybe try loosening the motor mounts and jacking up the engine. Pulling it is also sounding more attractive at this point.

 

Hey thanks for all the suggestions. I know I made things confusing by not being sure if it was a broken boot or a plug liner, but thanks for bearing with me.

[OB99W]

Hose pliers could work, if there's enough clearance. However, it might first be necessary to break the bond between the boot and plug. If possible, work a thin tool between the boot and the plug's insulator. The tool should be lubricated with dielectric grease or similar silicone-based lubricant. Insert and remove the grease-covered tool several times, as necessary to cover the entire circumference. If that can be done successfully, the boot should be much easier to remove.

[davebugs]

Depending on if it made sense I'm sure some of us have old plug wires.

 

Don't forget to get only Suby ones.

 

But I'm sure some off us have used offbrands, or welll used Suby ones.

 

Don't know if shipping would be time and $ prohibitive.

 

And we'd need to know if it's a male or female connection at the coil, and the shape of the opening in the valve cover.

 

Pics of the old one would suffice.

Edited May 6, 2009 by davebugs
typing abilities

[Rooster2]

Here is another idea............break off the ceramic top portion of the installed spark plug. This should give you more room to work inside the spark plug "hole." With the added work space, use a wire brush connected to a drill with a right angle connection to permit entry into the "hole." See if you can grind out the remnant of the spark plug boot. As I posted before, you may need to loosen motor mounts to jack up the side of the motor to gain better better working access and visibility.

 

Man I feel your frustration. We have all been there one time or another. At times, I have spewed out all the four letter swear/cuss words that I could think of, and even invented some new ones along the way. When I reach that point, I know it is time to take a break and emotionally cool down, and come back later to work on the car, before I really do something stupid in anger.

 

Just keep at it, and you will find your way to success. Don't give up and spend big bucks to have someone else relieve you of frustration. Keep talking with us here, we will help you get through this.