tintop Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 (edited) Hi, long time lurker - 1st time poster. Long one, sorry in advance. I race and restore BMW's but my fiance is a dedicated Subaru nut. She has had 3 Subaru wagons, the most recent being a 1999 Legacy Outback. Unlike any of the RWD BMW's I've had, this car is magical in the NE winters and I've really come to appreciate it. It's a little more difficult to work on than the older German cars, but I've done most of the basic suspension, brake + exhaust replacement without too much trouble. About 3 years ago (128 k miles), we noticed the fabled head gasket failure starting to develop and (gulp) brought it to the dealer for diagnosis. We then had to make the decision to spend 2-3 grand on a 7 year old car (I had them do a compression check which was very good, as I recall) and bit the bullet knowing or hoping that a dealer would do the right thing as far as proper interval maintenance - tBelt water pump, etc even if it came at a premium. I was traveling at the time, but my GF indicated that all was well with the repair. Last week (185k) I left the driveway and heard a little "pop" and the engine stopped. I performed a scan and got a crank sensor failure, open fuel loop, etc. I know from my BMW experience that these things can fail, but I also know that it's usually an indication of something far more sinister. The replaced $25 Crank sensor cleared the fault but didn't solve the problem as feared. Knowing that it was an interference engine, I had a bad feeling, but I didn't suspect the T belt knowing that it had less than 60 k on it and that it was just 3 years old. My Fiance had the car towed to a different dealer and it turns out it was the bearing on the tensioner that failed (belt jumped) and low and behold the tensioner WAS NOT replaced when they changed the timing belt at 128K (we found the original receipt for the service). I don't have the factory service manuals for this car, but I cant imagine that it wouldn't be a mandatory replace at that mileage. Does anybody have anything that I can reference when I approach this dealer regarding their negligence? An x-Subaru ASE friend told me that he was sure that it was officially recommended, but didn't have any of the manuals on him. Thanks - Not sure if we will get anywhere, I was ready for a drive-line or internally lubricated part failure but not an avoidable timing failure, especially after we paid through the nose for a proper repair. (hoping to convince her to get a WRX or a Forrester XT) Edited May 8, 2009 by tintop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 First - there's a chance you didn't sustain engine damage, so good idea to slap a new belt on and see. MDJC (fellow member) somehow had a belt jump recently and got those codes as well. His belt jumped and he fixed it and now it's fine. Now...that's REALLY strange and they don't normally just "jump time", but his oddball problem is an entirely different story. My only point is don't assume the engine is bad just yet even though it doesn't look promising. If you're going to negotiate anything I'd see if they'd slap a new belt on it for free (they quoted by cousin $699 for just a timing belt change only). 3 years and 60,000 miles is a long time, I highly doubt they'll consider any kind of warranty on that kind of mileage. Heck that's almost a new car warranty if you think about it. Even a brand new car might be just out of warranty, much less a 10 year old 180,000 mile vehicle. Replacing the tensioner isn't required or mandatory unfortunately. Most of us do it, but dealers do not. A forum like this is your friend, we have better collective knowledge, experience, and suggestions than any dealership in the world. Really all of the timing components should be replaced, not just the tensioner. The bearings in all the other pulleys are just as bad by now most likely. Expecting 200,000 miles (time to second belt change) out of all the timing bearings on an interference engine is a huge gamble (as you're finding out). That being said, here's the problem. Subaru pulleys are really expensive. You're talking $500+ added to your bill just for parts, plus some extra labor probably. Nobody is up for that so rarely will you find that being done by a dealer. Those of us on here use the ebay kits - for $90 (old style tensioner) or $200 (new style like yours has) you get everything. All new pulleys, tensoiner, and belt. Some folks buy the kit but use a Subaru belt for kicks. Brand new aftermarket bearings > 10 year old devoid of grease original bearings hope all that helps and good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 I feel your pain, and have a similar concern. I have a 99 OBW with about 175K on the odo. I had the tb, water pump, and front oil seal replaced upon buying the car used. It wasn't until reading this forum that I learned that I should have had the pulleys and tensioner replaced as well. No one said a thing about that, when I got the tb replaced. Now, I drive around with the scary thought of the tensioner going bad as yours did. Subaru dealers should do more at promoting pulley and tensioner replacement, when the tb is replaced. As mentioned in the previous post, your fiance's car motor may not be ruined. The tensioner broke at low rpm, and maybe did not taken out the valves. Replace the tensioner, and maybe the engine will run again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Rooster2 - often times when these new tensioners fail they begin to make a light rapping or tapping sound, they usually give a warning and drive fine for awhile before they finally allow the belt to slip. The ones I've seen only made noise, I have yet to see one fail completely. So just keep your ears peeled until you replace it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 As Gary said: You'd be smart to try putting a belt on it and see if the engine runs fine. If you want a used tensioner to work with let me know and I'll let you have one for 25.00 shipped. Just to help out another subie owner. In my case, all of the timing components were replaced at the same time. I suspect that when I put the belt on it may have been one tooth off. It ran good, but idled a little off. It was a cool morning and I started it up, it revved and I shut it off right away to get something in the house. I think that it was just right for the belt to jump. Now the care idles better than before and that is why I think I may have been one tooth off and that precipitated the jump at cold start. Anyhway, let me know if you want to try the timing belt. I may even have a used belt thatyou can have for testing purposes. I keep them around for lifting and pulling stuff, but I know I have one I would trust for a test run. PM me and I can get it out to you this weekend. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Rooster2 - often times when these new tensioners fail they begin to make a light rapping or tapping sound, they usually give a warning and drive fine for awhile before they finally allow the belt to slip. The ones I've seen only made noise, I have yet to see one fail completely. So just keep your ears peeled until you replace it. grossgary...........thanks for the advise about listening for light rapping or tapping noises. I will be sure to remember that, and listen for noises. Thanks again. Rooster2 (Larry) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintop Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 First - there's a chance you didn't sustain engine damage, so good idea to slap a new belt on and see. MDJC (fellow member) somehow had a belt jump recently and got those codes as well. His belt jumped and he fixed it and now it's fine. Now...that's REALLY strange and they don't normally just "jump time", but his oddball problem is an entirely different story. My only point is don't assume the engine is bad just yet even though it doesn't look promising. If you're going to negotiate anything I'd see if they'd slap a new belt on it for free (they quoted by cousin $699 for just a timing belt change only). 3 years and 60,000 miles is a long time, I highly doubt they'll consider any kind of warranty on that kind of mileage. Heck that's almost a new car warranty if you think about it. Even a brand new car might be just out of warranty, much less a 10 year old 180,000 mile vehicle. Replacing the tensioner isn't required or mandatory unfortunately. Most of us do it, but dealers do not. A forum like this is your friend, we have better collective knowledge, experience, and suggestions than any dealership in the world. Really all of the timing components should be replaced, not just the tensioner. The bearings in all the other pulleys are just as bad by now most likely. Expecting 200,000 miles (time to second belt change) out of all the timing bearings on an interference engine is a huge gamble (as you're finding out). That being said, here's the problem. Subaru pulleys are really expensive. You're talking $500+ added to your bill just for parts, plus some extra labor probably. Nobody is up for that so rarely will you find that being done by a dealer. Those of us on here use the ebay kits - for $90 (old style tensioner) or $200 (new style like yours has) you get everything. All new pulleys, tensoiner, and belt. Some folks buy the kit but use a Subaru belt for kicks. Brand new aftermarket bearings > 10 year old devoid of grease original bearings hope all that helps and good luck. Thanks. 0 compression in cylinder one told the me the sad story - game over. The tensioner + pulleys don't seem to be over $200 list. So when they drop the engine for a $3,000 job, I'm not sure why they'd ignore a troubled and potentially catastrophic item like that. Especially since we are footing the bill and told them to do everything right to justify this expense on a car that had 128k miles. But, I'm learning + we looked at a Forrester today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintop Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 I feel your pain, and have a similar concern. I have a 99 OBW with about 175K on the odo. I had the tb, water pump, and front oil seal replaced upon buying the car used. It wasn't until reading this forum that I learned that I should have had the pulleys and tensioner replaced as well. No one said a thing about that, when I got the tb replaced. Now, I drive around with the scary thought of the tensioner going bad as yours did. Subaru dealers should do more at promoting pulley and tensioner replacement, when the tb is replaced. As mentioned in the previous post, your fiance's car motor may not be ruined. The tensioner broke at low rpm, and maybe did not taken out the valves. Replace the tensioner, and maybe the engine will run again. Spend the money now man! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 Hey: If you watnt to repair the engine, I have a set of heads off a motor with a bad lower end. Let me know. I can let you have them cheap. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintop Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 Hey: If you watnt to repair the engine, I have a set of heads off a motor with a bad lower end. Let me know. I can let you have them cheap. Mike Thanks Mike, how about I sell you our bottom end + everything else! In all seriousness we were thinking of getting a motor with 60K, but I think that we'll get something that has come off lease under 36k and then add an extended factory warranty for up to 100k. It's too bad though because I just did all the shocks, front wheel bearings, rotors + pads, alternator and added new tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 Thanks. 0 compression in cylinder one told the me the sad story - game over.after the belt was reinstalled i suppose? as for thinking about getting a 60,000 mile motor, that's a pretty terrible idea. used EJ25's are a much worse gamble than that tensioner pulley. just search for "head gasket" if you don't believe me. you'll get zillions of hits on here and even google has multiple sites and folks PO'ed about that whole deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 How much do you want for the car as it sits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintop Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 after the belt was reinstalled i suppose? as for thinking about getting a 60,000 mile motor, that's a pretty terrible idea. used EJ25's are a much worse gamble than that tensioner pulley. just search for "head gasket" if you don't believe me. you'll get zillions of hits on here and even google has multiple sites and folks PO'ed about that whole deal. The 60 k motor would have new head gaskets/seals/belts pulleys and they guaranteed it for as long as we owned the car. Wasn't cheap though, $4300 installed. $3500 w/o the warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintop Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 How much do you want for the car as it sits? 400-500. There are a lot of door dings though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintop Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) 400-500. There are a lot of door dings though. Sold it for $400 to a mechanic - turns out it was a $50 idler pulley that is part of the standard $200 conti timing belt kit - still a moral sin in my book not to replace. Thanks for all the advice, looking at a used forester xt - wondering what the dependability of the 2.5 turbo is??? BTW, not impressed with the 3 Subaru techs that I've encountered so far. Edited May 10, 2009 by tintop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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