Does the EA-81 have the power to push a 5 speed?

[tundrawolf]

Hello,

 

I am undertaking a very large project. I am going to use a 79 BRAT chassis underneath a 69 VW Beetle.

 

I have some issues.

 

I am going to use the EA-81 engine, because I cannot get a dual range transmission for the EA-71 as much as I want it to be so.

 

So my question is this: Does the EA-81 engine, carbureted, make enough power to warrant a 5th gear?

 

The reason I ask is, if it needs more power in 4th gear, then a 5th isn't going to improve anything.

 

 

Thanks!

[markjw]

Hello,

 

I am going to use a 79 BRAT chassis underneath a 69 VW Beetle.

 

I have some issues.

 

Lotsa people on the board have put 5 speeds behind the ea81. As far as I know,no one has regretted it. In fact,I'm pretty sure that combo came from the factory that way in a ea82 car. Seems it was only offered in other countries,thou.

[ihscout54]

The Subaru 5 speed transmissions that will mate with the ea81, have nearly the same final gear ratios. Infact the later 4speed D/R has a taller 4th than the 5 speeds 5th. Do a search this is a common swap. But if you are looking for a taller cruising gear your not going to find it. the 5 speed is a better trans and offers a better spread of your gears though.

[subiemech85]

YES!!

 

depends mostly on which trans and final drive ratio is being used, and the road speed

 

ea81 engine with ea82 intake and carb, xt6 90A alt. replaced ea82t engine.

 

the standard trans that the '86 gl-10 turbowagon has is 3.7

while driving use 4th as top gear unless going over 70 mph!!

seems to help to wind out 2nd til 4k, you get the feel for shifting after some experimentation

 

60 mph approx = 3k in 4th which is where the ea81 is happy

[tundrawolf]

The Subaru 5 speed transmissions that will mate with the ea81, have nearly the same final gear ratios. Infact the later 4speed D/R has a taller 4th than the 5 speeds 5th. Do a search this is a common swap. But if you are looking for a taller cruising gear your not going to find it. the 5 speed is a better trans and offers a better spread of your gears though.

 

Thank you for that! It really helps! What is the "D/R"?

[Phizinza]

D/R is our slang here for Dual Range

[edrach]

I have a EA81 with the 5 speed D/R swap in my '84 Brat. Best upgrade I've ever done. Takes 500 rpm off the engine at highway speeds running in 5th instead of the old 4th. Of course the weber conversion we added later doesn't hurt either.

[bheinen74]

yes it does, but not 35" tires without a sammy transfer case..

[4x4_Welder]

5th gear is taller than -some- of the 4th gears. The earlier four speeds had a nearly direct fourth gear, from 83 on they had an overdrive fourth and a big jump from third. The d/r 5speed has the same (or very similar) first through fourth of the early transmissions, plus an overdrive on top of that. It's a worthwhile swap.

 

On a side note, you damn well better take some pics of this thing. I have seen front engined 4x4 Beetles before, but not Subaru based ones.

[ihscout54]

This came from the USRM. Thanks to numbchux. http://www.numbchuxconversions.com/home.htm

[tundrawolf]

Thanks for the info, guys.

 

It all boils down to two things: Cost and availability. Are 4 speeds more plentiful? I think they are, but I could be wrong. Will someone be willing to let their old 4 speed go for less $$ than their 5 speed? I think so but I could be wrong. I do a *lot* of highway travel, and a *lot* of off-roading, so a dual range tranny is a must, and good highway gearing is a must.

 

Honestly, where I live, there's one stop sign and no traffic lights, it's a small town. However, if I can score a 5 speed with a nice overdrive you bet I will. I would love to use my EA71, but there isn't a dual range tranny for it available. The bellhousing between it and the EA81 are different. Plus, if there was a dual range tranny for it, how is the overdrive 4th speed in it?

 

So pretty much my only economical choice is a EA81 with a 4 speed with a tall 4th gear. Unless, of course, I can locate a super cheap 5 speed. I will be rebuilding whatever EA81 I get so maybe I will also have to rebuild the transmission, too. It's all up in the air right now.

 

Since I live in California, everything 1976 and newer has to be smogged, but the beetle pan and cab are 1969. However, the law says if I put a 1980 engine in it, then it has to be smogged per 1980 standards. It really bothers me, but the truth is Subaru didn't have a dual range tranny with tall highway gearing and compatible engine back in 1976 (Oh how I wish they did!). It'd be a perfect project if I could get my hands on something pre 76 like that but unfortunately it doesn't exist!

Edited May 15, 2009 by tundrawolf

[ihscout54]

None of the old Subarus gearing is what I would call "tall highway gearing". The later units were taller, still they were pretty low considering the tiny tires. The lack of power required this though.

There is very little difference in top gearing between the 5 spd and later 4spd. The 5 spd is more common and a better choice (IMO). The 4 speeds are known for sloppy shifting, leaks, bad synchros. I wanted to do the 5 spd when my Brat tranny went but what it comes down too is what you can find. After 2 months of searching I found a 4 spd S/R and downgraded cause I could not find anything better. If you do go 5 spd it has to come out of a sedan or wagon non turbo. Look at the chart (you need to be sure the front diff is a mate for the rear) do a search on it here there is alot of info about it, what to look for, and how to asseble the clutch for adaptation.

Edited May 15, 2009 by ihscout54

[GeneralDisorder]

Thanks for the info, guys.

 

It all boils down to two things: Cost and availability. Are 4 speeds more plentiful? I think they are, but I could be wrong. Will someone be willing to let their old 4 speed go for less $$ than their 5 speed? I think so but I could be wrong. I do a *lot* of highway travel, and a *lot* of off-roading, so a dual range tranny is a must, and good highway gearing is a must.

 

5 speed's are MUCH more plentiful. The dual-range 5 speed was standard equipment for more years (5 years vs. 4 years).

 

4 speed's have issues with the 3rd gear syncro. Both have issues with the reverse engagement due to sloppy linkage.

 

4 and 5 speeds have (for all intents and purposes) the same final gear ratio - that is to say that 4 on a 4 speed is the same as 5 on a 5 speed. The 5 speed has two gears for the 3rd gear on a 4 speed. It makes cruising at 25 MPH tollerable. That's about all it does for you.

 

The one exception is the 81/82 4 speed. It has shorter 3rd and 4th gears. Being that you are looking for taller gears, that further reduces your options to only 2 model years (as well as 85-89 EA81's.... which there were not nearly as many) .

 

The 5 speed's have stronger syncro's, a 10x better linkage arrangement, they are smaller, lighter, and have a 1.59:1 reduction in low range vs. a 1.45:1 on the 4 speed. They are the obvious choice - which is why we all use them. The going rate is around $100. I won't pay any more for one - they are as common as dirt.

 

Honestly, where I live, there's one stop sign and no traffic lights, it's a small town. However, if I can score a 5 speed with a nice overdrive you bet I will. I would love to use my EA71, but there isn't a dual range tranny for it available. The bellhousing between it and the EA81 are different. Plus, if there was a dual range tranny for it, how is the overdrive 4th speed in it?

 

So pretty much my only economical choice is a EA81 with a 4 speed with a tall 4th gear. Unless, of course, I can locate a super cheap 5 speed. I will be rebuilding whatever EA81 I get so maybe I will also have to rebuild the transmission, too. It's all up in the air right now.

 

Since I live in California, everything 1976 and newer has to be smogged, but the beetle pan and cab are 1969. However, the law says if I put a 1980 engine in it, then it has to be smogged per 1980 standards. It really bothers me, but the truth is Subaru didn't have a dual range tranny with tall highway gearing and compatible engine back in 1976 (Oh how I wish they did!). It'd be a perfect project if I could get my hands on something pre 76 like that but unfortunately it doesn't exist!

 

You are incorrect about the EA71. There were EA71's made with the correct bell-housing for the dual-range transmission. They were made in the mid-80's and came on the STD model hatchback. The bell-housing I beleive can be fitted to the older EA71 or at least the entire engine can be made to look as though it came factory in a 70's body. It's not difficult to restamp some serial numbers if you already have a 70's EA71 laying around.

 

EA81's are the better choice of course, but even parts for them are getting scarce. Just sourceing oil-pump's is getting tough. Forget about finding parts for the EA71's - even the most popular engine rebuilder for Subaru engines has stopped rebuilding them due to Subaru not carrying any of the parts - can't even get a head gasket from the dealer for them anymore.

 

GD

[edrach]

My personal choice for the 5 speed conversion is the '88 d/r. As GD says the 5MTs are more common. Not only were they manufactured for more years, I believe they sold more per year than the 4MTs. I don't know how you get around California's overly restrictive emissions/upgrade restrictions. Good luck.

[tundrawolf]

You are incorrect about the EA71. There were EA71's made with the correct bell-housing for the dual-range transmission. They were made in the mid-80's and came on the STD model hatchback. The bell-housing I beleive can be fitted to the older EA71 or at least the entire engine can be made to look as though it came factory in a 70's body. It's not difficult to restamp some serial numbers if you already have a 70's EA71 laying around.

 

EA81's are the better choice of course, but even parts for them are getting scarce. Just sourceing oil-pump's is getting tough. Forget about finding parts for the EA71's - even the most popular engine rebuilder for Subaru engines has stopped rebuilding them due to Subaru not carrying any of the parts - can't even get a head gasket from the dealer for them anymore.

 

GD

 

So you are saying that I could technically make my EA71 work with the 5 speed?

 

 

Let me ask you something. Is this at all possible: 1975 or older Subaru motor with a dual range 4x4 transmission, with reasonably tall overdrive gear?

[GeneralDisorder]

So you are saying that I could technically make my EA71 work with the 5 speed?

 

 

Let me ask you something. Is this at all possible: 1975 or older Subaru motor with a dual range 4x4 transmission, with reasonably tall overdrive gear?

 

Yes if the 1975 models came with the EA71. I think they were EA63's for the most part though (1400cc).

 

With the use of a mid-80's bell-housing or block the EA71 can mate to any side-starter EA81/EA82 transmission. Additionally with the use of an EJ adaptor plate it could be mated to any of the EJ transmissions right up to the current 2009 models. Use a 3.7 final drive transmission from an RX - tall overdrive and tall final drive plus dual range - you can install the low range gears from a non-turbo and have a 1.59:1 reduction as well. You can do almost anything - you just have to research how to put it together.

 

GD

[tundrawolf]

Yes if the 1975 models came with the EA71. I think they were EA63's for the most part though (1400cc).

 

With the use of a mid-80's bell-housing or block the EA71 can mate to any side-starter EA81/EA82 transmission. Additionally with the use of an EJ adaptor plate it could be mated to any of the EJ transmissions right up to the current 2009 models. Use a 3.7 final drive transmission from an RX - tall overdrive and tall final drive plus dual range - you can install the low range gears from a non-turbo and have a 1.59:1 reduction as well. You can do almost anything - you just have to research how to put it together.

 

GD

 

You are a Godsend, sir. I have been struggling with this for almost a year now, trying to find an adapter plate, etc etc.

 

I will be looking for an EA-63, I have already found a rebuild master kit online for the engine.

 

The EA-71 looks like it was produced from 1976 (The beginning of the smog year) onward to 1987. There's no way I can use the 71 and still be smog legal.

 

So with an EA-61, is it possible to mate that to a 5 speed, or even a 4 speed dual range 4x4 tranny?

 

I have the 1979 BRAT, I will try and post the numbers from the rear differential to see what ratio it is.

 

Thank you, GD, you don't know how much you have helped me!

[GeneralDisorder]

So with an EA-61, is it possible to mate that to a 5 speed, or even a 4 speed dual range 4x4 tranny?

 

I don't beleive that the EA63 can be fitted with the bell-housing of the EA71 so I don't think it would work. You also would have a tough time finding one and an even tougher time finding parts.

 

GD

[tundrawolf]

I'm kinda screwed on the smog no matter what, unless I can machine an adapter plate myself for the EA-61 to mate with the modern transmissions.

[GeneralDisorder]

I'm kinda screwed on the smog no matter what, unless I can machine an adapter plate myself for the EA-61 to mate with the modern transmissions.

 

It hasn't been done that I know of, but it's probably possible with modification to the bell-housing. You could remove the two bell-housings, cut them apart, and TIG weld the mating surface of the EA81 bell-housing to the block mating surface of the EA63 bell-housing. It would take a bit of fabrication but not more than 8 hours I wouldn't think.

 

BTW - you keep refering to them as EA61's, which they are not. It's an EA63.

 

There's still the issue of finding an EA63 (rare), and getting parts to restore it to proper operation (virtually unheard of - hence why they are so rare now).

 

GD

[tundrawolf]

It hasn't been done that I know of, but it's probably possible with modification to the bell-housing. You could remove the two bell-housings, cut them apart, and TIG weld the mating surface of the EA81 bell-housing to the block mating surface of the EA63 bell-housing. It would take a bit of fabrication but not more than 8 hours I wouldn't think.

 

BTW - you keep refering to them as EA61's, which they are not. It's an EA63.

 

There's still the issue of finding an EA63 (rare), and getting parts to restore it to proper operation (virtually unheard of - hence why they are so rare now).

 

GD

 

I actually was able to find a complete rebuild kit for EA-63 online. You know, it would be worth it to cut and machine the housings just to not to have to smog it. If you know anyone who is selling one for cheap let me know!

[Uberoo]

cant you just stick a Ea81 in there and pay the smog guy like 20 bucks so he looks the other way?

[GeneralDisorder]

I actually was able to find a complete rebuild kit for EA-63 online. You know, it would be worth it to cut and machine the housings just to not to have to smog it. If you know anyone who is selling one for cheap let me know!

 

It's really not the kit that's the problem. You can make most of the gaskets if you have to and you could have head gaskets made up for not a ton of money.... the problem is replacement *parts*. Namely the oil pump - no other newer pump will fit and they nearly always need to be replaced unless the owner of the car had the oil and filter religiously changed at 3k. They are nearly always completely shot. Rings, rod & main bearings etc will not look much better than the pump itself looks. And I assure you they are generally horrific. I have replaced more pushrod EA series oil pumps than I care to remember and I've rebuilt a few engines as well. Anything older than an EA81 at this point is real questionable as to it's future supportability. If I were you I would just drop in an EJ22 complete will it's whole fuel injection system and call it good (+ adaptor plate and D/R transmission). They really don't have much on them for emissions and being computer controlled they are easy to work on and nearly aways pass inspections.

 

GD

[tundrawolf]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I need to hear this stuff.

 

Uberoo: This state is one of the worst for smog and emissions. They check for fuel vapor bleed off, engine vacuum, engine temp, AFR, knock, SES light issues, vehicle weight, and a lot of other things. Gone are the days when they can just hook up a Civic and tell the computer it's a 1981 Ford F350 that burns oil. I have a LUV truck that runs great but I cannot drive it in this state because it'd cost more to put the emissions garbage on it than it than the truck is worth.

 

General Disorder: That may be what I have to do. I was even considering using a different brand running gear for the project, but the Subaru is my best bet.

 

Just a question: What does a good running EJ22 motor complete running with harness cost these days?

 

Honestly, if I got the EA 71 or later models, I'd end up spending $5-600+ rebuilding it, plus the cost of the motor, so if I can get a good motor that will pass emissions without having to rebuild it, that is probably the wisest thing I could do.

 

Edit, maybe a better question would be: What engines came with the 5 speed D/R trannies?

Edited May 18, 2009 by tundrawolf

[GeneralDisorder]

Just a question: What does a good running EJ22 motor complete running with harness cost these days?

 

Generally it's best to buy a whole car and yard out what you need. Good running and driving 90 to 94 Legacy's fetch around $750 or less. I just got one for free and drove it home after replacing the alternator. Obviously that's the exception but the last one I bought off craigslist after searching for only 3 days for $750. It had 134k on it and needed about $200 for a first-class water pump/timing belt job (all OEM parts). I drove it for another 12k and sold it.

 

The EJ22's are argueably (and no one here will argue against it) the most reliable engine Subaru ever made. It is extremely uncommon to see an interenal mechanical failure before 300k.

 

GD