98sub2500leg Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Engine: Sub Outback EJ25 phase 1 DOHC. Condition: Engine is out of car on stand, valve cvrs removed. Need as many true responses as possible from anyone who has had this exact application with real world experience only please. The 14mm 12 pt short socket stripped the end of the head bolt (not the threads, but the end of the bolt). Drilling it out is the last option. Irwin makes a bolt extractor socket, but not sure if it will work. I did finally find a 12 pt 14mm long impact socket which easily loosened one of the other bolts. Not sure why this bolt was so frozen. Also due to how frozen it is I am doubtful the bolt extractor mentioned above can grab it and still remove it. Drilling the bolt is the very last option for me here, and not a good one at that. The bolt is the left head upper right bolt when standing in front of the head), recessed approx. 3" deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortskoolbus Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I think they are called grip tite sockets. Can be found at sears. Supposedly they work very well on rounded bolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I have a set of the originals (before everyone else copied them) called Xtractor. Problem is that they take a wrench/socket, not a rathet, breaker bar, or extension. Sears (and I believe Irwin, and probably Snap-on, etc.) now make the same product. I bought a Sears set (actually one set like up to 12mm and another set 13mm and up to like 17)? They will take a ratchet/breaker bar. I've only used the Sears set 3-4 times. On the Xtractor set they have replaced the 13mm one 3 times for me. I guess I'm hard on them. Anyways that head bolt has a lot or torgue naturally, then there have been recent discussions here about rust, etc on the bolts. It's really gonna be a problem. I wish you well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortskoolbus Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 i think the grip tite ones take a 3/8" drive http://www.bt-andf.com/index.php but definately they will break. the little piece inside that grips the flat face of the bolt is actually made of plastic... which i dont really understand why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 (edited) Thanks, I already called them. The picture in the link shows a 6 point. I feel I am fighting a loosing battle. Irwin also sells a similar bolt extractor set to Craftsman. It was a Craftsman socket that originally stripped the 12pt bolt head. The design seems to be the same. It is definitely worth a shot, some internet posts show success while others had no luck. The ones that had no success say the head of the bolt was pretty rounded, not the case here, but again the 12 point scenario doesn't help matters. Edited May 19, 2009 by 98sub2500leg Clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 since the motor is out, the one for sure method of removing it is to take it to a machine shop. they have everything at their disposal and work with metal every single day. if they charge one hour labor $40-$75, that's probably well worth it (my shop even charges less than full hour rates, so it'd be even cheaper). saves you the hassle and cost of other tools that may or may not (often in my experience) work. you definitely aren't drilling this thing out, i mean you could but it would absolutely suck (as you seem to know). if you're still gung ho about having fun with this yourself: comes down to how badly seized that bolt is. every extractor i've ever used was not that impressive, including at least one set from Sears...at least for REALLY stuck stuff. but i've done enough rust/welded bolts that i've seen about as bad as it can get. i'm talking stuff that's beyond the capabilities of most folks. if it comes out with the extractor then you can probably get it out with some other creative method. i've dealt with a bunch of situations like this and if it truely is bad, extractors don't work. if you just hosed it up and it's not really insanely rust/welded/theworldhatesyou stuck - then it'll come out without an extractor. if you have access and room, i'm not sure exactly which bolt you're talking about. you can drop a nut on top of the bolt head and weld the nut to the bolt. you need to be a good welder or know someone who is. weld a nut to the top of the bolt head, then you have a fresh nut to torque. this is a fantastic method if you can do it right. be sure to let it cool down first after welding. don't try and remove a heated bolt. you said recessed, so this won't work but a true pipe wrench will work too if it was one of the corner bolts and you could get it on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 I have a set of the originals (before everyone else copied them) called Xtractor. Problem is that they take a wrench/socket, not a rathet, breaker bar, or extension. Sears (and I believe Irwin, and probably Snap-on, etc.) now make the same product. I bought a Sears set (actually one set like up to 12mm and another set 13mm and up to like 17)? They will take a ratchet/breaker bar. I've only used the Sears set 3-4 times. On the Xtractor set they have replaced the 13mm one 3 times for me. I guess I'm hard on them. Anyways that head bolt has a lot or torgue naturally, then there have been recent discussions here about rust, etc on the bolts. It's really gonna be a problem. I wish you well. Thanks, This bolt may have thread corrosion due to the head gasket failure as another came loose with reasonable force easily. If worse comes to worse, I may be able to have someone weld on an extension to the bolt head, but worried about warpage from excessive heat. The grind solution is my absolute last-last resort. I have done that many times before in the past on broken taps, machine bolts, ect... always with success. This is in a uniquely bad spot, it will definitely be a challenge to get to if that scenario arises. I wonder if a plasma torch can disintegrate it without damaging the head??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) You can weld a nut onto the head of the bolt. The heat often helps to free the bolt. But those head bolts are long and run through a giant heat sink - the area that needs heat may not get hot enough. Welding would be my last choice. The heat might damage the head and you'll get spatter all over things that need to stay clean. But you might be able to save the block. EDIT: Sorry for the repeat - others beat me to this suggestion before I got my post typed up! Edited May 20, 2009 by ron917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 since the motor is out, the one for sure method of removing it is to take it to a machine shop. they have everything at their disposal and work with metal every single day. if they charge one hour labor $40-$75, that's probably well worth it (my shop even charges less than full hour rates, so it'd be even cheaper). saves you the hassle and cost of other tools that may or may not (often in my experience) work. you definitely aren't drilling this thing out, i mean you could but it would absolutely suck (as you seem to know). if you're still gung ho about having fun with this yourself: comes down to how badly seized that bolt is. every extractor i've ever used was not that impressive, including at least one set from Sears...at least for REALLY stuck stuff. but i've done enough rust/welded bolts that i've seen about as bad as it can get. i'm talking stuff that's beyond the capabilities of most folks. if it comes out with the extractor then you can probably get it out with some other creative method. i've dealt with a bunch of situations like this and if it truely is bad, extractors don't work. if you just hosed it up and it's not really insanely rust/welded/theworldhatesyou stuck - then it'll come out without an extractor. if you have access and room, i'm not sure exactly which bolt you're talking about. you can drop a nut on top of the bolt head and weld the nut to the bolt. you need to be a good welder or know someone who is. weld a nut to the top of the bolt head, then you have a fresh nut to torque. this is a fantastic method if you can do it right. be sure to let it cool down first after welding. don't try and remove a heated bolt. you said recessed, so this won't work but a true pipe wrench will work too if it was one of the corner bolts and you could get it on there. The pipe wrench won't work as the bolt is inside the head, it is one of the head bolts. If your facing the left head, it is the recessed upper right bolt. I am not sure if there is any welder with that precise enough skills to weld the nut on without damaging aluminum head with excessive heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Thanks, I wonder if a plasma torch can disintegrate it without damaging the head??? Electric Discharge Machining (EDM) can do exactly that. The object is immersed in a liquid bath and the metal is eroded by an arc. It's one way to remove broken EZ-outs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Electric Discharge Machining (EDM) can do exactly that. The object is immersed in a liquid bath and the metal is eroded by an arc. It's one way to remove broken EZ-outs. I have worked with a tap burner, which electrically errodes the broken end of the tap. EDM sounds similar, however, do you believe it would work in such a tight cavity? Does it have some type of pin type electrode that can enter a cavity where the head bolt is? Thanks, this gives a glimmer of hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 The head bolts seize in the block sometimes. If the gasket goes bad in just the right place, coolant gets down the threads and the head bolt seizes. I've never been able to get one out without snapping the bolt off in the block. At that point I give up and replace the engine. Even if it is just a rounded off head on the bolt, I doubt you will break it loose with a bolt extractor. I usually use a 2 foot pipe to break EJ head bolts loose. No extractor is going to hold up to that. Best bet is to drill/grind the head off the bolt and go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I have worked with a tap burner, which electrically errodes the broken end of the tap. EDM sounds similar, however, do you believe it would work in such a tight cavity? Does it have some type of pin type electrode that can enter a cavity where the head bolt is? Thanks, this gives a glimmer of hope. Yes, a tap burner is just a crude version of EDM. One type of EDM uses a graphite rod electrode that "burns" the workpiece. The big thing is the work has to be imersed in a liquid (oil of some type). Maybe they can just build a dam around the bolt head and fill the cavity with the liquid? BTW, I'm not an expert on EDM. I just know about it from a machinist aquantence who gave me a tour of his shop. It seems to me that if you could remove the head of the bolt by EDM or even a Dremel (and lots of time!), you could get the head off. Then, with the pressure relieved, the body of the bolt might easily turn with a pipe wrench or stud extractor. Call around to machine shops and see what they say. As mentioned previously, they deal with this kind of problem all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 The head bolts seize in the block sometimes. If the gasket goes bad in just the right place, coolant gets down the threads and the head bolt seizes. I've never been able to get one out without snapping the bolt off in the block. At that point I give up and replace the engine. Even if it is just a rounded off head on the bolt, I doubt you will break it loose with a bolt extractor. I usually use a 2 foot pipe to break EJ head bolts loose. No extractor is going to hold up to that. Best bet is to drill/grind the head off the bolt and go from there. Well, I will have to wait until tomorrow to get the extractor. My feeling has been along the lines of what your explaining with the coolant corroding the head bolt threads and freezing it. however the bolt did a few CCW snaps before the head stripped so I did have a start on it. I also marked the position on the bolt and on the head with a sharpie before I started, it has moved a bit so there is some hope there. With my experience with bolt heads once the original head of the bolt is compromised, it gets softer. I can't see that an extractor would be able to get enough torque to remove it, but I may get lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Well, I will have to wait until tomorrow to get the extractor. My feeling has been along the lines of what your explaining with the coolant corroding the head bolt threads and freezing it. however the bolt did a few CCW snaps before the head stripped so I did have a start on it. I also marked the position on the bolt and on the head with a sharpie before I started, it has moved a bit so there is some hope there. With my experience with bolt heads once the original head of the bolt is compromised, it gets softer. I can't see that an extractor would be able to get enough torque to remove it, but I may get lucky. Well, I will have to wait until tomorrow to get the extractor. My feeling has been along the lines of what your explaining with the coolant corroding the head bolt threads and freezing it. however the bolt did a few CCW snaps before the head stripped so I did have a start on it. I also marked the position on the bolt and on the head with a sharpie before I started, it has moved a bit so there is some hope there. With my experience with bolt heads once the original head of the bolt is compromised, it gets softer. I can't see that an extractor would be able to get enough torque to remove it, but I may get lucky. I trial fit a Dremel in the tight recessed cavity using a conical carbide burr bit. Unfortunately a cutoff wheel is not an option here. If worse comes to worse I can grind it out with the burr bit, remove the head, then flat grind the face of the remaining stud. If you get the center punch in the dead center of the ground stud and pilot the hole and then step up the drill several times until you have a very thin wall remaining of the stud, then with a good drilled out center. The trick is doing it without compromising the existing threads. I then re-tap the hole using plenty of tap fluid and the remaining pieces of the stud breaks apart without enlargement of the hole. I have done this many times before with about 90% success. It is almost a fine art to getting it done right and I don't like to do it unless it is the last option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Why not just drill the head of the bolt off and then slide the cylinder head off and work it out from there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Sounds like a simple solution. That's more than likely what will end up happening. With the gummed up bolt recessed and in a cavity, it is hard to get to. The bolt is a also a washerhead type so it has a large diameter on the flat surface that would need to be broken before the head would be able to be removed. The web of most standard drill bits are usually 82 degrees.. Once the web gets beyond the inside surface of the head, that can easily damage the mating block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 Ok, good news, I bought the Irwin bolt extractor kit and was able to remove the frozen bolt. The LT -head is off. Definite HG gasket failure, hard to believe how well the engine ran while it under this condition for over 5 years. Now onto the other head then into the machine shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 I think you were lucky. Congratulations. I forget what engine you're working on. If you need some head bolts let me know. I have a 97 2.5 torn apart and the head bolts should be on the shelf. Unless someone is close or you prefer new. I'll be leaving in the morning for the weekend(gonna be great weather). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskibum16 Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 (edited) I had this same problem a few months ago. I was able to hammer a 12pt 12mm (I think) socket on to the bolt. It started slipping a couple times so I'd stop and hammer it on again. Then with very steady and slow pressure I got it to break loose. I know this is old, but I just thought I'd add this to the thread - maybe it will be usefull for people searching in the future. Edited March 29, 2010 by mtskibum16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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