how bad is the ej25?

[wfothrottle]

i've been seeing a lot of 2.5's out there for good prices, and was wandering, how bad are the ej25? do all of them over heat and blow head gaskets eventually, or is it just a comon problem. how difficult is it to remove the head on a ej25, is it a few hours or a 4 day weekend job?

a mod that i would like to do is a ej25 whith ej22 heads, would that have the same inherant head gasket problems?

 

just a few things rateling around my head.

thanks

 

 

i just posted this on another thead, i thought it might get a few more looks here.

[idosubaru]

Buying a "cheap" motor that is a particularly problematic motor usually isn't a great move. That goes for anything, not just EJ25's.

 

Good news is if you're installing new head gaskets then you really don't have much of a head gasket problem to worry about, just be sure to use Subaru head gaskets.

 

as for your original question "how bad is the EJ25?":

search this forum, other forums, or google: "EJ25" "headgasket" "EJ25 headgasket" and start reading. your question has no answer.

 

in reality - you're talking about one person and one motor, that's not a large enough sample size to make any kind of prediction or suggestion at all as to what you'll experience one time.

 

it comes down to statistics and how you make decisions, not the motor or opinions of others. the EJ25 has quirks, but it's still a decent motor and good fit for some people. you need to read, get a feel for what is a good fit for you.

 

if you're cool with dodge neons you'll love the EJ25. if you value the reliability and consistency of the EJ22 you're less likely to like it.

 

if you're one of those emotional folks that attaches to anecdotal experiences then you'll LOVE the EJ25 if it doesn't ever give you problems but hate it for life if it does.

 

the Phase I (96-99 Foresters & 96-00 Legacy's) is substantially worse than the Phase II. Phase I's leave you stranded and are older, not as well maintained by now.

[baccaruda]

How do you tell the difference?

[wfothrottle]

Buying a "cheap" motor that is a particularly problematic motor usually isn't a great move. That goes for anything, not just EJ25's.

 

Good news is if you're installing new head gaskets then you really don't have much of a head gasket problem to worry about, just be sure to use Subaru head gaskets.

 

as for your original question "how bad is the EJ25?":

search this forum, other forums, or google: "EJ25" "headgasket" "EJ25 headgasket" and start reading. your question has no answer.

 

in reality - you're talking about one person and one motor, that's not a large enough sample size to make any kind of prediction or suggestion at all as to what you'll experience one time.

 

it comes down to statistics and how you make decisions, not the motor or opinions of others. the EJ25 has quirks, but it's still a decent motor and good fit for some people. you need to read, get a feel for what is a good fit for you.

 

if you're cool with dodge neons you'll love the EJ25. if you value the reliability and consistency of the EJ22 you're less likely to like it.

 

if you're one of those emotional folks that attaches to anecdotal experiences then you'll LOVE the EJ25 if it doesn't ever give you problems but hate it for life if it does.

 

the Phase I (96-99 Foresters & 96-00 Legacy's) is substantially worse than the Phase II. Phase I's leave you stranded and are older, not as well maintained by now.

 

thanks for the info,

i'm looking to buy a doner vehicle to drive around for a little while, then gut the drive train to put in a project i'm building.

my question may not have a solid answer, but i would like to hear of some of the experiences of other people have had so i can weigh my options

[idosubaru]

i would like to hear of some of the experiences of other people have had so i can weigh my options

that's where searching and reading come in. you'll get for more info than waiting for the few anecdotal responses this week.

 

i don't even know how many EJ vehicles i've owned, a lot. the EJ25's are not my favorite, well that's harsh - it is nice that they are easy to find cheap - i have two in my driveway right now. blown head gaskets, cracked blocks, lost rod bearings, piston slap....easy to find.

 

have you considered an EJ22T or one of the Ebay turbo engines?

 

if that's out of range another option is an EJ22 with low boost turbo or supercharger. that would be my choice for low cost "performance".

 

if performance isn't that important (which it probably isn't since Ej25's are not fast) then the 20 extra hp isn't worth it to me for lower reliability and higher expense.

[Flowmastered87GL]

i wouldnt say that older EJ25's overheat and blow head gaskets... its more like the head gaskets leak as they age, the coolant gets low because people dont check it, it runs out and THEN the engine overheats. Well that would be the logical assumption on it... my EA82 was like that... knew the coolant was getting low when the temp started climbing

[Rooster2]

I own two ej25 motors, one in a 98 OBW, the other in a 99 OBW. Both bought used three and four years ago. So far, no HG issues. The HGs may have been changed, I don't know, since I bought both as used cars. I just keep my fingers crossed that the HGs don't blow. I have made it a point of keeping the coolant full, and put new radiator caps on both. I plan on changing the coolant this summer after three years of use, and have added water pump lubricant, with anti rust chemicals each of the three years. Maybe the added care I have given both has helped the HGs. So, my ej25 experience has been a good one.

[wfothrottle]

thanks for all the info.

i got a cheap 99 forester with a oil leak on the front of the engine, and possible bad head gasket. nothing comes out of the tailpipe on start up, but i can see little bubles coming up when i give it gas the radiator cap off. i'll drive it around this week, and maybe next to see how it acts, then start disassebly.

[Rooster2]

The little bubbles are prolly exhaust gas from a bad head gasket that enter the cooling system. On the corner of the radiator is a "burp" plug. You can unscrew it just a few turns to vent off the gas bubbles somewhat, while still using the radiator cap. It will help some to keep the cooling system from over heating. Does sound like you will need to replace head gaskets.

[idosubaru]

99 Foresters have the later Phase II EJ25 with SOHC's. Those have different failures and symptoms than the earlier EJ25's. It should be leaking out the rear of the headgasket to engine mating surface.

 

I would verify the year or that it's SOHC or DOHC. For the foresters: 96-98 = DOHC. 99 and up = SOHC.

[wfothrottle]

99 Foresters have the later Phase II EJ25 with SOHC's. Those have different failures and symptoms than the earlier EJ25's. It should be leaking out the rear of the headgasket to engine mating surface.

 

I would verify the year or that it's SOHC or DOHC. For the foresters: 96-98 = DOHC. 99 and up = SOHC.

 

it's defenetly a 99, but the 99 foresters have both the DOHC & the SOHC engins. i've been trying to recerch whitch one i have, but have come up dry.

 

are there any visual indications that destinguish the two? or do i have to take the valve cover off?

[etc]

Anecdotal data:

 

A family member had a 2001 OBW, 2.5L - wrecked it at something like 150K miles, no HG issues or other issues.

 

Now 2000 OBW, 2.5L, 198K miles, no HG issues.

[johnceggleston]

it's defenetly a 99, but the 99 foresters have both the DOHC & the SOHC engins. i've been trying to recerch whitch one i have, but have come up dry.

 

are there any visual indications that destinguish the two? or do i have to take the valve cover off?

 

SOHC have 2 cam sprockets, one on each side.

DOHC have 4 cam sprockets, 2 one each side.

 

lean over and look down the front of the engine, if there are 2 big round ear like things on each side, yours is DOHC, phase 1.

[Qman]

...

if you're cool with dodge neons you'll love the EJ25. if you value the reliability and consistency of the EJ22 you're less likely to like it...

 

That has to be the most rediculous thing I have ever seen you write Gary.

 

EJ25's do not overheat and blow head gaskets. They leak through the head gasket, the owner neglects them and they run low on water and then over heat.

 

I am really tired of all the EJ25's suck, they are garbage replace them with a lesser engine replies. The only issues they have had are the seeping headgasket issue(resolved with updated HG's) and piston slap when they are cold. They are very reliable. They produce good power and decent fuel economy. They accept mods easily.

 

The only reason they have a bad rap is because the same people who tell users to search for the answers themselves do not. If it was such a bad design I doubt the manufacturer would still run the same displacement and design today, some 15 years later.

 

But, don't let me stop you from throwing out those horrible 2.5's. I love getting them cheap and swapping them into other Subaru's or selling them to people who put them into sand buggys and other offroad rigs.

[wfothrottle]

SOHC have 2 cam sprockets, one on each side.

DOHC have 4 cam sprockets, 2 one each side.

 

lean over and look down the front of the engine, if there are 2 big round ear like things on each side, yours is DOHC, phase 1.

 

DUH...........t h a t m a k e s s e n c e................

i'm a dumb a$$.

it has one cam sprocket, SOHC phase II.

thanks for the kick in the head.:-\

Edited May 31, 2009 by wfothrottle

[wfothrottle]

That has to be the most rediculous thing I have ever seen you write Gary.

 

EJ25's do not overheat and blow head gaskets. They leak through the head gasket, the owner neglects them and they run low on water and then over heat.

 

I am really tired of all the EJ25's suck, they are garbage replace them with a lesser engine replies. The only issues they have had are the seeping headgasket issue(resolved with updated HG's) and piston slap when they are cold. They are very reliable. They produce good power and decent fuel economy. They accept mods easily.

 

The only reason they have a bad rap is because the same people who tell users to search for the answers themselves do not. If it was such a bad design I doubt the manufacturer would still run the same displacement and design today, some 15 years later.

 

But, don't let me stop you from throwing out those horrible 2.5's. I love getting them cheap and swapping them into other Subaru's or selling them to people who put them into sand buggys and other offroad rigs.

 

finaly, someone from the other side of the coin!!!!!!

i'd like to hear more from this side.

[idosubaru]

i like EJ25's. i see folks buy them and then can't afford to fix them. info helps prevent that.

 

That has to be the most rediculous thing I have ever seen you write Gary.

that comment was meant to be a humerous way to try and make a point, not a comparison..i forgot the ....no one can tell what his modis operandi is when buying cars.

 

some folks buy a car and the first thing that goes wrong they cuss, throw a fit, and talk about how horrible the company is. others, fix it it and keep trucking. what is this guy like?

 

your comments on the EJ25 issues aren't correct. the Phase I EJ25 (he didn't clarify for sure what he has - nor is he still certain) definitely overheats before it runs low on coolant.

 

i reply to a lot of posts - i don't always pull the "search" card. but in this case it does help quantify something that's hard to put a value on (hence our current disagreement). craigslists, USMB, ebay, Autotrader - bear out some things.

Edited May 31, 2009 by grossgary

[98sub2500leg]

Just commenting on my personal ownership experience only on a 98 Outback EJ25 DOHC.

Bought the car new in Aug 98, drove well until the 60k mile service, which included a coolant flush. Took it into the dealer, got it back then smelled coolant. I always kept the engine clean and never could find out where it came from and simply was working too long hours for months at a time to really spend the time to dig in-no trace of coolant on the ground or around the engine though. The coolant levels were always normal.

 

After approx 2 months of this, it finally overheated one day. I pulled over when the gauge was at 3/4 full scale and had the car towed to the dealer. They called me with their script, "well theres good news & bad", good news is you were low on coolant, bad news is I needed a a HG change or I would risk blowing the engine" (a cool $2300). I took it to a reputable mechanic who tested for hydrocarbons , cylinder pressure and I believe vacuum. He ran it for 45 min. and tested it and found 5ppm trace of hrdrocarbons. He said I should just drive it and watch it. I did what he said, and the car would rarely (few times/year) overheat to 3/4 scale. I would turn off the engine and the temp would go back to normal. After 6 more years of this it finally got worse. I believe (and this is only my opinion), that the dealer most likely got a air bubble trapped in the coolant system when refilling. In all fairness to the dealer, it is possible that the head gaskets just failed at 60k miles. Keeping in mind I was always easy on the engine.

 

I am re-doing just about everything in hopes I will get at least another 100k miles. Bought all OEM parts from the dealer, which I know I probably overpaid(big $$), but at least I can assured they will meet specs.

The car is a keeper, always ran great, has good acceleration even with blown HG's-stable RPM at idle. At 107k miles, seems to run as good as when I bought it.

It is broken down now , had the heads tested very slight warpage on the edges, compression tested good. If this all goes well, plan on picking up another (probably a phase 2 or possibly even a phase 3). I need the AWD to get around in the winter on the hills. Other than HG's, great car.

[idosubaru]

finaly, someone from the other side of the coin!!!!!!

i'd like to hear more from this side.

it's not about "someone" other than you, you're the one looking for info. we can help you out as much as you give us info on what you're trying to do/accomplish.

 

what do you want to hear? they're good motors. inteference engine (all 97+ subaru engines are) so keep up with the timing belt change, preferrably with all new timing belt components depending on mileage and condition. ebay has sets for $200 for complete belt, pulleys, and tensioner.

 

like most Subaru engines - give them a thorough tune up with timing belt and the seals behind it and you're good to go for another 100k if you don't run it out of oil or overheat it.

[wfothrottle]

it's not about "someone" other than you, you're the one looking for info. we can help you out as much as you give us info on what you're trying to do/accomplish.

 

what do you want to hear? they're good motors. inteference engine (all 97+ subaru engines are) so keep up with the timing belt change, preferrably with all new timing belt components depending on mileage and condition. ebay has sets for $200 for complete belt, pulleys, and tensioner.

 

like most Subaru engines - give them a thorough tune up with timing belt and the seals behind it and you're good to go for another 100k if you don't run it out of oil or overheat it.

 

not someone other than me................

all i see on this board is how much the ej25 sucks, and you should replace it with a ej22.

i would just like to hear from the ej25 side.

 

bought a 99 forester phase II ej25 with a bad head gasket. i'm going to drive it around for a while before i tear it apart. i wanted to know if the're really that bad and if it would be wise to modify and upgrade, or just junk it and get a 2.2.

[idosubaru]

all i see on this board is how much the ej25 sucks, and you should replace it with a ej22.

that's not even close to true - there are tons of replies recommending repair. swaps are a good fit for some situations. remember, things aren't always black and white, yes or no, us verses them.

 

bought a 99 forester phase II ej25 with a bad head gasket. i'm going to drive it around for a while before i tear it apart. i wanted to know if the're really that bad and if it would be wise to modify and upgrade, or just junk it and get a 2.2.

now we're getting somewhere, woo hoo! the Phase II is much nicer, it won't leave you stranded. it will not overheat unless it runs low on coolant.

 

flush the coolant and add the subaru recommended conditioner, or at least add the conditioner.

 

the Phase II's leaking externally - you can drive them like this for a long time.

 

the longer you drive it with bad headgaskets the more risk you run of doing internal engine damage, though i think it would take quite some time. i've seen aluminum chewed up where the head gasket breach occurred on vehicles run for many thousands of miles with blown gaskets. i suspect localized overheating that doesn't show on the gauge causes this, but i really don't know either that's just a guess.

Edited May 31, 2009 by grossgary

[OutbackMartin]

I bought a new 2000 Outback Ltd Edition and replaced the head gaskets at 85,000-miles, just out of warranty. One was leaking externally below the right rear cylinder emitting vapor.

 

The car now has 135,000 miles and I'm smelling coolant vapor again. While the performance of the engine is good, I wouldn't recommend it based on this defect. With proper design, head gaskets should last at least until the valves need to be ground and the seals replaced. That would be at least 150,000 to 200,000-miles minimum, not a pathetic 50,000 to 85,000-miles.

 

Stop-leak is a poor substitute for a properly designed engine and head gasket sealing system. I'll keep putting it in until the vapor becomes visible again. Then I'll replace the head gaskets yet again while muttering choice words for the negligent so-and-sos at Subaru who stuck their heads in a dark place and ignored this defect for years. There's no excuse for it.

 

So, when people say the EJ25 sucks, it deserves a bum rap. No matter how good an engine performs, when it falls apart like this it either leaves you shopping for a new engine, a new car, or a weekend to replace the one when your head was stuck under the hood. This engine is a toy, not a serious piece of equipment for a vehicle that needs to travel long distances without trouble.

 

Go with the EZ30 H6. It's a better engine.

 

I've been researching replacing my EJ25 with one of those or perhaps an EG33 out of an SVX with a fried 4EAT transmission that only does FWD anymore (which was another nasty problem caused by stubborn idiocy and the reason why I've chosen manual transmissions). Either project is complicated by substantial amounts of welding or reworking of things like fuel pumps, ECUs, instrumentation, and wiring. But at least then, I can have the satisfaction of applying a creative solution that might impress the ladies.

Edited December 1, 2009 by OutbackMartin

[themoneypit]

i agree with you martin. subaru produced a HUGE flawed engine in both the phase I and phase II 2.5s. i think its ridiculous!! id like to bittch slap whoever designed these motors their fix... heres some stop leak to put in it!! ive owned more subarus than i can even remember or count, and love the brand, but absolutely HATE this 2.5 motor!! i didnt do research before i bought my OBW and got hosed buying it with bad HGs because i didnt know what to look for. i was told i was stupid to run the 2.5 into the ground, that i should fix it.. HA are you kidding me.?. to only have to take it apart in 50k miles again and do the job again.?. nah.. ill be patient, find a good 2.2l, and in the meantime run this 2.5 into the ground!! oil change, it saw its last one before i bought it... i honestly cant wait to blow it up, i just hope i find a good 2.2 for it before i do

[mdjdc]

Okay, now I'll chime in. I've had over a dozen subies. I started with the ea82's and then moved into the EJ series. While the EA's were very stout, they had their problems and the EJ's I've owned were all the 2.5 engine. All bought with blown HG's. I replaced them with OEM gaskets and had not a single problem with any of them. Several have been sold to friends and they drive the heck out of them. One is being driven by my wife and she is (by her own account) very rough on cars. That 98 Outback wagon is running strong and she just loves the car. My car is a 99 forrester with the phase II 2.5. No leaks yet and I absolutely love the car.

 

I have been told by a Subaru master Tech, that the Phase I and II headgaskets were redesigned and that after a proper replacement you should be able to drive the car for many years with no difficulty. His stepson drove his forrester (phase I) to 400 k miles after a HG replacement. It came off the road because it got totalled.

 

Just my two cents. Love these cars and the comfort and joy of driving them.

 

Good luck.

[wardssix]

I have to agree with the consensus that throwing conditioner at the problem is sort of hokie on the phases 2s. That in itself is admitting you haven't truly fixed the flawed design. A headgasket should last the expected life of the engine 150-200k by todays standards and after the phase 1 deboccle it should have been corrected sooner. Thank God the cars are excellent otherwise and AWD or it would have killed them. On my 4th subaru and first ej251 I'm disappointed that I cannot trust the car for long trips even though its only got 118k on it. I ran a Nissan KA24 to over 200k with no issues and a civic over 160k that my one son's still driving daily. If my wife's 05 Legacy lets the HG go early it will be the end of Subys for me til the HG issue is cured. Too bad the 25s weren't the workhorses the 22s are reliability wise or 2.0s for that matter. I do not understand how they can produce such good powerplants for the turbo but struggle with the NAs now. I know they are closed deck and such but still it makes no sense.

my 2 cents