Camber is the death of me

[Markus56]

85 EA82 wagon 2" lift with 15 degree angle blocks

 

I am going through front tires like non other. What how can I get rid of the camber for good??

 

Make new lift blocks with more angle? I don't think I can do that without cutting out a part of the car, which would make it not safe.

 

Everytime i turn the tires sit on the outside of themselves.

 

Has someone made extenders for the lower arms? wouldn't that make CVs disappear faster as well?

 

The outside of the front tires are already bald. I have to replace them soon, or else they will wear through.

 

Another thing i noticed is that i have to accelerate in 4X4 or the front wheels chirp until i get up to speed.

 

This car has been my DD for over a year and lifting it was not a good idea :-\

 

 

SUMMARY: does anyone know a good way to fix this?

Edited May 29, 2009 by Markus56

[GeneralDisorder]

You aren't going to easily fix the camber when the wheel is turned. It's an artifact of the suspension design - you can make them straight when the wheel is straight but even with a stock suspension the camber is way out when the wheel is turned. It has to do with the caster of the strut - I'm not even sure it can be fixed due to clearance issues with the axle shaft but if it can it's going to require compound angle lift blocks and custom lower control arms.

 

This is somewhat of a problem with stock sized tires, but as you increase the tire diameter you increase the angle at the outside of the tire radius - the larger the diameter of the tire, the farther from center the edge will be when the wheel is turned completely to lock. So larger tires are only going to compound the issue.

 

And if you correct the caster of the strut, you now have to deal with a car that is (probably) near undriveable at high speed - the wheels are set to the caster they are to keep them easily aligned to straight when the car is rolling forward. If you remove all the caster from the strut the tires will not realign to straight after making a turn. Think - driving backwards at 50 mph without your hands on the wheel

 

Alignment is a tricky, tricky problem with independant suspension. And without haveing an upper control arm to keep things level you are limted to the design abilities of the macpherson strut system.

 

Most of us just try to go slow around corners and we buy a lot of tires.

 

GD

Edited May 29, 2009 by GeneralDisorder

[3eyedwagon]

John,

 

You need to have someone with a bit more experience take a look at this thing, and figure out what your problem is. I've seen the 2" blocks installed wrong create massive camber issues. It's not real complicated, but, crap happens. Get some good pics of STRAIGHT DOWN on top of your struts with the hood up. Maybe we can spot it here.

 

If that isn't your problem, I'd recomend more degrees in the block (no two of these cheaply built unibodys are identical, 15* blocks on my old white wagon were dead on the nuts, others have been off one way or the other), or checking your other components. Something could be bent.

[bratman18]

Yeah I have just straight cut 2" blocks on my struts and have no noticeable wear on my tires and I have put on a few thousand miles so far, so something is off somewhere. Also try towing your tie rods out a touch, that will help, but only do it slightly

[ShawnW]

Im going to solve part of mine with the 5 lug conversion as the newer struts are utilized and have some camber adjustment.

[Markus56]

I was thinking, would lower arms from a different car that are longer, but otherwise the same help? SO, if the wheel were pushed out more, would it correct it some?

 

I will get some pics when i get home from school

Edited May 29, 2009 by Markus56

[GeneralDisorder]

I was thinking, would lower arms from a different car that are longer, but otherwise the same help? SO, if the wheel were pushed out more, would it correct it some?

 

No - your issue is *not* a camber issue. It's a caster issue and you aren't going to fix it by changing the length of the lower control arm. You will have to move the top of the strut forward or backward (not side to side - that would be camber) to affect the angle of the tire when it's turned.

 

I'm not sure on the EA82's, but on the EA81's you can change the caster to some extent by turning the strut cap 180 degrees as the mounting studs are not centered on the axis of rotation.

 

GD

[Markus56]

So I need to take pictures straight down on the strut. Anything else?

[GeneralDisorder]

I would take pictures with the wheel off of the strut lift block if you can get them.

 

As the other's have said - perhaps your problem is being made worse by how it's put together.... but you aren't going to totally eliminate the problem. You can most likely get it back under control either by moving the strut forward/backward to adjust the caster, or by changing the angle (forward or backward) of the lower control arm.

 

GD

[4x4_Welder]

90% of your problem is that you only dropped the struts, if you drop the subframe too, that will help since all the components will be flattened out a bit. You'll lose some ground clearance, but what good is ground clearance if you can't drive it?

[Numbchux]

90% of your problem is that you only dropped the struts, if you drop the subframe too, that will help since all the components will be flattened out a bit. You'll lose some ground clearance, but what good is ground clearance if you can't drive it?

 

ding ding ding! the angle of the control arms pulls the bottom of the knuckle in towards the car, giving it more static camber. to fix it right....you have to drop the crossmember. IMHO, just a one inch difference will keep camber at a reasonable amount, and you could do one inch blocks on the engine crossmember, and leave the tranny up as-stock.

 

 

yea, you could extend the control arms, but your axles would still be at that angle, so you'd then extend the DOJs a bit, which means they'll be weaker.

[Markus56]

Alright! Thanks for all the input!

 

Here are pictures

 

driver side:

 

 

passenger side:

 

and the tires as of 10 minutes ago:

 

 

[GeneralDisorder]

ding ding ding! the angle of the control arms pulls the bottom of the knuckle in towards the car, giving it more static camber. to fix it right....you have to drop the crossmember.

 

His blocks *correct* the static camber by moving the top of the stut inward by 15 degrees - at least so he claims (looks that way in the pictures too). Looking at the pics you can see that the camber when the wheel is straight isn't the problem. It's the camber when the wheel is turned to full lock that is the problem - thus you have to change the CASTER to effect a change. Doing this would require moving the strut top forward or backward - not in or out. Changing the length of the control arm or dropping the engine cross-member will screw up his static camber - making it ride on the inner edge of the tire when he isn't turning.

 

GD

[bratman18]

I vote again for adjusting the tie rods

[one eye]

90% of your problem is that you only dropped the struts, if you drop the subframe too, that will help since all the components will be flattened out a bit. You'll lose some ground clearance, but what good is ground clearance if you can't drive it?

 

Just dropping the struts is the Idea of the 2" lift. Instead of doing a body lift and not gaining any ground clearance, you gain 2" and can put bigger tires on the rig. Johns is the only one that I've seen that has the problem all the time, My car does it while Im on the gas but just driving down the road is fine. Really there has to be something up with his ride, out of 5 or 6 cars done this is the only one that has done this. I say put it back to stock and get a different wheeler.

 

Jeff

[Markus56]

Will it go back to stock?

 

It turns out that my dad's friend might be giving me a Geo Prism if i can fix it, so this one can just be for wheeling until i get another wagon?

 

So i guess the general mood is just to forget it, huh?

 

With all the crap i've modded this ride with, it would be a shame to have to take it all off... The grill guard is a b*tch to take off and put on another car

 

 

Also: would the 205/75/R15s fit on a non lifted wagon?

Edited May 30, 2009 by Markus56

[one eye]

Will it go back to stock?

 

It turns out that my dad's friend might be giving me a Geo Prism if i can fix it, so this one can just be for wheeling until i get another wagon?

 

 

 

 

 

Ya get the Geo going, sell it and boom!! you got money for another Subaru!!! If it was a 4x flat four Geo this would be a little different........but its not.

 

Jeff

[Markus56]

I need the geo to commute to bellingham for school next year

[Numbchux]

His blocks *correct* the static camber by moving the top of the stut inward by 15 degrees - at least so he claims (looks that way in the pictures too). Looking at the pics you can see that the camber when the wheel is straight isn't the problem. It's the camber when the wheel is turned to full lock that is the problem - thus you have to change the CASTER to effect a change. Doing this would require moving the strut top forward or backward - not in or out. Changing the length of the control arm or dropping the engine cross-member will screw up his static camber - making it ride on the inner edge of the tire when he isn't turning.

 

GD

 

I'm fairly sure 15 degrees only compensates for the angle at which the strut top is at, and therefore moves the strut top straight down.

 

I can't think of a way that the caster would have changed with the lift, but the camber definitely would have. I've easily driven 100k miles between my EA82s with stock Caster angles and never noticed anything like that.

[GeneralDisorder]

I'm fairly sure 15 degrees only compensates for the angle at which the strut top is at, and therefore moves the strut top straight down.

 

The struts are never straight up and down - the casting of the knuckle sets them at an angle and that angle has to be preserved. 15 degrees is about right considering only the strut was moved.

 

I can't think of a way that the caster would have changed with the lift

 

I understand your confusion. The caster *did not* change with the lift. The problem is that the caster *is* present to insure that the wheels return to straight after a turn. Normally it's no issue because the stock camber is set for stock sized tires. But when you change the diameter of the tire the problem is magnified as you push the center of rotation further away from the contact patch of the tire. The tire tends to roll more on it's edge than on it's tread because the downward force of the vehicle is over the edge of the tire and not over the tread. To correct this you have to reduce the caster of the strut to move the center of gravity of the wheel back over the tread and not over the edge.

 

I don't know how I can explain it any better without drawing you a picture.

 

GD

[Numbchux]

The struts are never straight up and down - the casting of the knuckle sets them at an angle and that angle has to be preserved. 15 degrees is about right considering only the strut was moved.

 

 

 

I understand your confusion. The caster *did not* change with the lift. The problem is that the caster *is* present to insure that the wheels return to straight after a turn. Normally it's no issue because the stock camber is set for stock sized tires. But when you change the diameter of the tire the problem is magnified as you push the center of rotation further away from the contact patch of the tire. The tire tends to roll more on it's edge than on it's tread because the downward force of the vehicle is over the edge of the tire and not over the tread. To correct this you have to reduce the caster of the strut to move the center of gravity of the wheel back over the tread and not over the edge.

 

I don't know how I can explain it any better without drawing you a picture.

 

GD

 

I understand the strut itself isn't vertical. but the strut top is moved straight down. if the block didn't have offset, the top would be moved out.

 

and yea, I understand the existence of camber, and that it's there. but I've had a couple lifted EA82s. one on 27.5" tires and the other on 29s. drove them both for many tens of thousands of miles, never noticed any wear like that. so I really don't think this is just stock geometry amplified.

 

 

 

 

I am curious how the toe is. has it been aligned at all? I think some toe-in could cause the issues you're seeing.

[4x4_Welder]

The excess caster is there because he only dropped the struts, and it sounds like he didn't make any adjustments to the radius arm. That's at an increased angle too, so maybe lengthen it as well.