Niku-Sama Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 some one on NASIOC said i should ask here seeing how they are a bit more new oriented. short back story, i have been driving a relatives car while i am up in washington looking for work because my 280zx needs tires hella bad, but they seemed pissed off that i am driving it even though they say "its ok" i am driving it. i needed to get them off my back so i went on craigslist and i found a 1990 Loyale Turbo with Full time 4WD, drove it home for $300. has the TOD and they werent willing to put $400 worth of lifters in it and they didnt know about the mickey. i did how ever and i am pretty sure thats what was causing it because aside fron it slinging oil on the front end of the engine its pretty clean. so i have been workin on it. there are pics here http://webpages.charter.net/niku_sama/Loyale/ yesterday i got the crank seal in and the inputshaft on the oil pump, that seal in and i ordered the rest so i got the rest of the seals today, the mickey, body oring and the cam shaft seals, i'm gonna go put the cam shaft seals on after i post this. theyre leakin a little bit and i am in there any way any way regarging a stint will this work or is the outer diameter too small? i will take the innards of the silver tube out of course. heres a comparison of the mickey new on left old on right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Just the oil pump gasket will likely not fix the problem. First, as you can see from the old gasket, the EA82's don't suck the gasket in like the ER27's do. It's much less common anyway, and while it's good to replace the gasket it's most likely not going to fix ticking lifters that have been ticking for a while. You will probably have to replace the cam case o-rings - the new ones are metal reinfoced and the old rubber ones have likely been sucked in. If that doesn't fix it then you probably will need new lifters. Once they start ticking for any length of time they get worn and will never stop. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 well alot of what i have read over the net says it happens with the EA82 regularly. i asked the owner about it and he said he replaced alot of seals but didnt replace the oil pump, did the marvel mystery oil and verious weights of oil. the pump seals have never been changed, after 183,000 miles and the way its sucked in on that side i would say its a pretty safe bet, you could see on the old seals before i cleaned them where they leaked and the oil was foamy, lots of air not water, when i drained it after running it. i checked those other cam seals and they are metal re-enforced and arent sucked in, i got the new ones on, i'm sure they might have replaced them before but they didnt replace the oring for the caps. i think they replaced them because one of the bolts is having a little bit of a problem. it wasnt tight and had been stripped but would still thread but i got it fixed. i really need to know if that will work for a stint or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 the pump seals have never been changed, after 183,000 miles and the way its sucked in on that side i would say its a pretty safe bet That's not even close to sucked in - sucked in o-rings will have a V in them and be completely inside the oil passage. Been there, done that. And at 183k, it's a pretty safe bet that it needs a new oil pump... AND lifters. Their both done. I can virtually garauntee that your TOD will not change any appreciable amount by replacing that o-ring. It's not bad for one, and your problem is the oil pressure and the lifters. If it's been ticking for as long as the PO says it has - long enough that they have tried repair's in a bottle - the lifters are worn out. i really need to know if that will work for a stint or not As I noted above - the o-ring isn't sucked in to any degree that would indicate a problem here. That is a problem mostly with the ER27's, not the EA82's. Your's reinforces that. It isn't sucked in, thus there isn't a problem, thus I wouldn't do anything stint wise - just leave it be. And if I were going to do something like a stint - I would want a better fit than that. But that's me. It would probably work - if you count "doing a job that doesn't need to be done" *working*. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 THIS is sucked in: EA82 cam case o-ring (non-metal type). GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4x4_Welder Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 For the life of me, I cannot figure out how an o-ring with pressure behind it gets sucked in. Installed wrong, maybe, or blown out. I would agree though that unless there is some hidden slit in that gasket, that it is not your TOD cause. I know some people don't like this trick, but usually you can fit a dime in under the HLAs to take up some slack. Not a permanent fix, but it will quiet it down for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I know some people don't like this trick, but usually you can fit a dime in under the HLAs to take up some slack. Not a permanent fix, but it will quiet it down for a while. That's actually not a bad idea for worn lifters - it moves the piston to a new spot inside the lifter where it's not worn. What generally causes this is a worn oil pump that doesn't put enough pressure out to the lifters - this results in lifter wear and TOD that you just can't stop without early intervention or replacing the lifters and the pump. As far as what causes the cam-case o-rings to get sucked in like that - my current theory is that the lifters are acting as tiny vacuum pumps - they are trying to suck in oil but the pressure from the pump just isn't there so they end up sucking on the o-ring's instead. It could also be some kind of strange venturi effect. I doubt we will ever know for sure.... but I'm betting someone at Subaru figured it out when they introduced the metal-reinforced o-rings for the cam cases. I wonder if there was a TSB about it.... GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) THIS is sucked in: EA82 cam case o-ring (non-metal type). GD nope not sucked in on the cam case like that, i looked in and the surface of the seals in the cam case have little depressions in them, like a crank seal from napa if you know what i am talking about well i fabbed up a different stint and i am gonna drop it down in there any way and see. it wont hurt i was reading arround and i found a few cases about an oil line going to the heads and something about a spring on the other side, is that those banjo fittings on the underside of the heads? the headgaskets have been replaced at i think it said 140,000. the oil pressure was 55Psi at idle out of the pump and lastly of all i didnt say how long it had been ticking, the PO said its been mabe 150 miles since it started and then i put mabe 25 on it on top of that. edit: heres the new one... its made from a copper coupling, i belive its 1/4" ID and a 10mm flat steel washer that i pressed on over it in a vice and ground down on a bench grinder. i keep lookin at the old seal and that flat spot was tilted inwards i can see it i know you guys cant. and if it doesent work so what but judging from the ammount of work previously done to the car before the father in law passed away and the people i bought the car from inherited it alot was done to the car, headgaskets, lifters some seals, oil pan gasket and a transmission filter kit, this was all done arround 130,000 ~ 140,000 its at 183,800 right now i popped the valve covers off when i started and theres only a slight varnish over the insides. i'm going to run a quart of ATF when i fill it up after all this to get what ever is in there out if any thing and then go from there Edited May 31, 2009 by Niku-Sama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Haveing that ring in there (the washer you ground down and pressed over the copper tube) is not a good idea. The o-ring has to "crush" to do it's job and it looks like that will impede it from doing so. What will happen is the o-ring will not be able to expand (flatten) and the oil pump will not draw up tight to the mating surface on the block. If your entrap an o-ring like that it will not allow you to tighten the thing down - they are rubber, but given nowhere to go they will feel like steel. I've ecountered cases where I installed the wrong o-ring in a very accurately machined groove - the o-ring was too large and would not allow the mating surfaces to properly draw together. As a result i couldn't set the clearances properly till I changed the o-ring to a smaller diameter. The difference in diameter was 0.5mm.... see what I mean? That ring isn't going to work I'm afraid.... Also - the oil pressure gauge on these cars isn't to be trusted. They are notorious for being off. 55 psi at idle is extremely high and I would suspect a fualty sender or gauge. Unless that reading was cold? They shouldn't be read cold as it's a very poor metric to discuss here on the board - it's based on ambient temps and the multi-viscosity index of the oil you are using.... it means little. At least at operating temp you have a better chance as the thermostat should regulate the engine to around 200 degrees F and you will be within the normal ISO rating of the oil. I like to see no less than 20 psi hot idle and ideally around 25 psi. Ar cruise RPM it should be around 50 or 60 psi. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 theres asually quite a bit of area arround the gasket to expand but i am still fine tuning it aswell. i'm not relying on the oil pressure guage in the car and that was at how ever hottest the car gets, which isnt hot at all, 1/4 the way up the guage on the temp. as a preventive measure they installed a cooler thermostat, too cool but i'll get to it when i get to it. save the cool t-stat for when i go to texas. and no offence to you but your the only person really saying the oppisite that the majority of the people i talked to have said, there was also a small minority that had no friggin clue. i had also got a heads up too from some one else about you. so with a grain of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (quote) i was reading arround and i found a few cases about an oil line going to the heads and something about a spring on the other side, is that those banjo fittings on the underside of the heads? No. The banjo fittings you mention there are for the turbo. The oil line and spring/ball check are in the cam cases under the cover. The cam case o-ring GD mentioned (pictured) is between the cam case and the head. You can't "see it" without pulling the cam case off the head. GD is correct on the amount of "crush" to properly seal an o-ring. To little, and it won't hold a seal for long. To much, and you'll over-crush it, instant failure of o-ring. I have 30 years experience working with hydraulics. I know these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 and no offence to you but your the only person really saying the oppisite that the majority of the people i talked to have said, there was also a small minority that had no friggin clue. i had also got a heads up too from some one else about you. I understand - you want to beleive it's just an easy fix. I get that. However, this is a problem that the "majority" of people out there NEVER solve. Because they don't know how and they won't listed to those of us that do. I do this stuff every day. And I've owned about a dozen EA82's, including a few turbo's. Been on this board for around 7 years - seen a few things in that time. I own 6 Subaru's right now - not a single EA82T. They are crap and I don't have time for crap. Worst engine Subaru has ever made - BY FAR. But that's ok - you won't get anymore help from me. Have fun. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 nope not sucked in on the cam case like that, i looked in and the surface of the seals in the cam case have little depressions in them, like a crank seal from napa if you know what i am talking about. You are looking at the Cam end seals. GD's pic is of the Cam case to Head O-ring. It goes around the oil feed passage between the head, and the Cam case (the weird extra stack on the head) So anyway, please......listen to us. We know what we are talking about. You may get lucky, and have you're TOD go away...but if not, the next thing to do is to get a valve cover set, a tube of grey RTV or better sealant,...... and 2 of the reinforced O-rings Plan for the job to take 3 or four hours, as you are new to these motor. It is also a good idea to have a pan of clean oil to prime the lifters in. And a 10mm gearwrench is a must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Niku-Sama, your definitely on the right track. I've had luck with just the oil pump seals taking care of the TOD, sometimes just an oil change will do it, sometimes a cleaner like Rislone, Seafoam, or MMO will do it, sometimes a new oil pump will do it, sometimes the cam case O rings, sometimes front crank seal, sometimes removing and cleaning the lifters by hand or just replacing them, etc, etc. There are many causes and it could take more to fix it. Just because your not doing what someone else has done, or vice versa, doesn't mean your doing something wrong. My Loyale, just needed to change the oil and filter. It leaks so much oil that the oil was "changed" every three weeks by replacing what leaked out. Of course the funk still builds up and clogs the lifters. After the oil change, with 1 quart of Rislone, about ten miles driving cleared up the tick. The O ring doesn't have to be damaged, and pulled in to suck air. It's the flattening, and hardening of the rubber. It will still seal the oil from leaking, but the vacuum created by the oil pump will pull in air and fill the lifters with it. Air compresses, oil does not, lifters tick because they can't pump up. I say finish with the pump and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 THE CAM CASE O RINGS HAVE BEEN REPLACED! i know what i am talkin about when i say this the ************ing things have been replaced. odds are they were replaced at 140,000 miles ago like i said before when the head gaskets were redone i replaced the seals that go on the end snout, i am not talking about those i know you guys arent talking about those but i am pretty sure its safe to say that in 4/2008 when the head gasket was replaced they were replaced aswell they dont make just plain rubber ones any more right? so lay off the o rings. in the cam case! the grease and crust and majority of the leak is comming from the oil pump i have replaced all 3 seals i am about to bolt it back in, with a stint and lastly, there is PLENTY OF ROOM arround the stint and the gasket for it to squish out but not get sucked in like the old on was some message boards are like this and i hate it, if your new to the board you dont know jack ************. lets put it this way this car is 1990 and its the newest car i have ever owned. i think its safe to say i have worked on a few things.... and thanks frank, i know its has been the cause of the problem alot of the time, we used to get them in at work (when i worked) all the time but we never thought much about it and the owners didnt care. this is the most likely culprit considering the ammount of work done to the car over the years, they went a little above preventitive maitence. if it doesent work then oh well i'll just drive it with some thicker oil in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Niku-Sama, your definitely on the right track. I've had luck with just the oil pump seals taking care of the TOD, sometimes just an oil change will do it, sometimes a cleaner like Rislone, Seafoam, or MMO will do it, sometimes a new oil pump will do it, sometimes the cam case O rings, sometimes front crank seal, sometimes removing and cleaning the lifters by hand or just replacing them, etc, etc.There are many causes and it could take more to fix it. Just because your not doing what someone else has done, or vice versa, doesn't mean your doing something wrong. My Loyale, just needed to change the oil and filter. It leaks so much oil that the oil was "changed" every three weeks by replacing what leaked out. Of course the funk still builds up and clogs the lifters. After the oil change, with 1 quart of Rislone, about ten miles driving cleared up the tick. The O ring doesn't have to be damaged, and pulled in to suck air. It's the flattening, and hardening of the rubber. It will still seal the oil from leaking, but the vacuum created by the oil pump will pull in air and fill the lifters with it. Air compresses, oil does not, lifters tick because they can't pump up. I say finish with the pump and see what happens. Best info yet, thanks Frank. THE CAM CASE O RINGS HAVE BEEN REPLACED! i know what i am talkin about when i say this the ************ing things have been replaced. odds are they were replaced at 140,000 miles ago like i said before when the head gaskets were redone i replaced the seals that go on the end snout, i am not talking about those i know you guys arent talking about those but i am pretty sure its safe to say that in 4/2008 when the head gasket was replaced they were replaced aswell they dont make just plain rubber ones any more right? so lay off the o rings. in the cam case! the grease and crust and majority of the leak is comming from the oil pump i have replaced all 3 seals i am about to bolt it back in, with a stint and lastly, there is PLENTY OF ROOM arround the stint and the gasket for it to squish out but not get sucked in like the old on was some message boards are like this and i hate it, if your new to the board you dont know jack ************. lets put it this way this car is 1990 and its the newest car i have ever owned. i think its safe to say i have worked on a few things.... and thanks frank, i know its has been the cause of the problem alot of the time, we used to get them in at work (when i worked) all the time but we never thought much about it and the owners didnt care. this is the most likely culprit considering the ammount of work done to the car over the years, they went a little above preventitive maitence. if it doesent work then oh well i'll just drive it with some thicker oil in it. Personally, I wouldnt try the stint....yet. Oil pump reseals are like changing your t-stat, it needs to be done on a schedule. Alot of EA82 folks change them when they do T-Belts, which is every 60K (preferably before 60K) You may not even own the car that long, who knows? GD, I would appreciate it if you stayed out of ANY EA82T thread for now on. If you're nice, I might give you a ride in my RX come Aug at the Show;) We'll see if your EJ22T has the Tq mine does. And I should have numbers on paper by then too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 yea i am givin up on the stint for now, i lost one in the grinder, it went BANG and dissappeared and took a chunk of me with it. the seccond failed while installing it and i am out of ideas. so its going back together, lemme know if you have that part we were talkin about earlier, i really hope you have it. would like to buy something from a member rather than a j-yard and i dont really want to dig it out of another car either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 GD, I would appreciate it if you stayed out of ANY EA82T thread for now on. There isn't any difference, for the purposes of this discussion, between the turbo and non turbo. Both have the same oiling system and lifters. I know you have more experience (and some strange love affair ) with the EA82T, but I've owned my share of EA82's, done more reseals than I can count on one hand, and fixed my share of TOD too. The variety of opinions is what people come here for. It's just been my experience that oil pump seals are rarely a lasting fix - often the problem returns in only a few thousand miles. It's so invasive to do the oil pump seals on an EA82 that I feel it is warranted to purchase remanufactured lifters, a new pump, and do the cam case o-rings as well. It's just good insurance against having to tear into the thing again. I do understand the money aspect of it, but if money is a problem then just keep adding oil and drive it. TOD is not terminal and the same parts will still need replacing in another 50k miles. If you're nice, I might give you a ride in my RX come Aug at the Show;)We'll see if your EJ22T has the Tq mine does. And I should have numbers on paper by then too. Well - you have the weight advantage so if you can get up around 175 HP you could probably take me. I have no mods on the thing outside of the 3" exhaust. It used a little less than a qaurt of coolant over the last 3k - so I'm looking at pulling it and doing a reseal and cylinder inspection before I install the TD05. I'm not taking any chances - the engine is supposedly low mileage (110k) and too diifficult to find a replacement for. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Well - you have the weight advantage so if you can get up around 175 HP you could probably take me. I have no mods on the thing outside of the 3" exhaust. It used a little less than a qaurt of coolant over the last 3k - so I'm looking at pulling it and doing a reseal and cylinder inspection before I install the TD05. I'm not taking any chances - the engine is supposedly low mileage (110k) and too diifficult to find a replacement for. You do know what I'm going to do if you grenade that engine And you arent the only one with lots of experience with EA82's. I've also done my share. Some people dont have the time and money to do a tear down and replace a crap load of parts. The oil pump is the #1 contributor to TOD, the rest get replaced if the problem persists. Most of these parts were replaced on Niku-Sama's engine. It just needs a new oil pump re-seal imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 well that and t the same time $300 car here. if it works it works for the tick if it doesent it doesent. if i wanted to but big bucks in a car, no offence to any one i like my loyale, but i would rather buy some new meat for my 280zx and a set of shocks/springs. the fiance and i need something a little bigger than a sentra and a 280zx but this fits the bill. when things are a bit more financially sound and the time comes i'll fix the other problems that come up but for now its only the TOD and the T-stat. both can be cheap. considering all the oil comming from the mounting surface of the oil pump... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 You do know what I'm going to do if you grenade that engine I replaced every single coolant line on the thing right after I got it installed. The coolant use is likely a slight head gasket leak. I have never overheated it of course - I know better. And even in this 90 degree weather it's rock solid on it's temp. You know me - I won't take the chance. I have only lost one engine and that was many years ago now. Due to bad oil pressure from a worn out pump of all things! And you arent the only one with lots of experience with EA82's. Oh I know - you have more experience than anyone has a right to have with the blighted things. You have more patience for them than anyone I know. Knowing the beutifully designed engines that came before them and after them ruins the experience for me I'm afraid. I've also done my share. Some people dont have the time and money to do a tear down and replace a crap load of parts. The oil pump is the #1 contributor to TOD, the rest get replaced if the problem persists. Most of these parts were replaced on Niku-Sama's engine. It just needs a new oil pump re-seal imo. With 183k, it's very probable that it needs a whole new pump. The EA series Georotor pumps are prone to wear if maintenenace isn't kept up on religiously. Also, looking at his mickey-mouse o-ring it doesn't look to be hard, nor is it sucked in. It's flat but they do that after only a few thousand miles - the heat and pressure makes them stay that way after being removed. I don't see any clear evidence that this is his problem. He claims that the cam-case o-rings *must* surely have been replaced when the head gaskets were done. I would agree if the dealer did them - but I wouldn't trust any other shop to do them, nor would I trust that if they did they didn't just grab a properly sized o-ring from their shop supply. It wouldn't be the first time. The fact that there is a clear oil pressure problem with his engine seems to indicate that something was not done properly at the head gasket replacement. I don't beleive for a second that the oil pump mickey is original to the engine in the condition it's in - not at 183k on a turbo. The oil temps are too high - it would be hard as a rock by now. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4x4_Welder Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I have noticed that the turbo engines do tend to run at a lower oil pressure than the NA engines. I attribute this to the extra oil bleed-off through the turbo. Maybe they should have used the ER27 oil pump on these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) If it was me personally, I'd replace the pump. I have gotten OEN Subaru oilpumps from www.thepartsbin.com before for 3 different rigs I've worked on. Ran me like $90, brand spankin new, still in the OEM box. With the EA82T and the experience I've had with them, it's better to be safe then sorry, I blew one up in 30 miles because I resealed the oilpump instead of replacing it like I should have. It only had 120k on it too. This is what I pulled from the huge pile of metal shavings when I dropped the pan. Yes, its a $300 car but parts are still fairly inexpensive for them. Hell, my Camaro is going to cost me over $4500 in brakes and suspension alone:rolleyes: Edited June 1, 2009 by Caboobaroo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Yes, its a $300 car but parts are still fairly inexpensive for them. Hell, my Camaro is going to cost me over $4500 in brakes and suspension alone Thats because its rotting away in your parents driveway J/K man, luv ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) i call the operation a success...sort of. the ticking is gone, it took a little bit for the last little bit to go away (5 minutes) everythings cool on that end. after talking to Turbone earlier today found out the timing was off aswell by a bit so its all lined up again. heres the sort of part, got it to gether let it idle everythings fine, good pressure in the top end of the guage and everything. take it for a run down the road and back everything looks ok and i check the guages and the oil pressure goes straight to 0. when i say take it for a run i am not talking about flooring it just normal driving. pull over out side the house (almost back) check under the car, no leaks. check the oil, full. soo....... what are the odds the sending unit went bad? there werent/arent any noises or leaks, the pump was leaking bad before mabe the sending unit just couldnt take it any more? the guy said he had 10/30 in it with MMO i put 10/40 in it no additives Edited June 2, 2009 by Niku-Sama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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