98sub2500leg Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) This is an 98 Outback Legacy EJ25 DOHC: I lost the positioning of the pumps 2 internal rotor positions relative to the housing. There is one alignment mark on top of each rotor. Those marks each seem to line up at the bottom 6:00 position of the pump in line with each other. The internal flats on the smaller rotor are at the 3:00 and 9:00 position and the pump lines right up to the flats on the crankshaft during a test fit. Can someone verify this? Edited May 31, 2009 by 98sub2500leg clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Thats right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 For the oil pump prep before install, I was planning on refilling the 2 bottom ports with oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Too risky if you ask me. You could get a little oil on the silicone and have a leak. Just use good quality permatex like ultra grey or Fuji bond subaru sealant and install it. Then disconnect the coilpack from the wiring harness and crank the engine over until the oil light goes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 It seems it is most likely I must have air in the oil pump, which will never draw oil with this scenario. I am going to go pick up an oil pressure gauge. It looks like the oil sensor takes a 23mm socket. Does anyone know if there is a way to remove the air within an installed pump? Also, can the 2 lower Hex key oil access ports be used for this? Does anyone know what they're function is? Has anyone had this problem before? I can access the pump w/o pulling the engine if I have to, but seems there must be a better way to prime it. It is most likely I didn't have the 2 lower fill ports filled all the way with oil and it pulled in air and it is now just cavitating. After pulling the pump on 1st & second round I found that if you use too much oil within the pump then use the ultragrey, it starts to run down onto the pump surface and then I wouldn't have a good seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Subaru oil pumps are georotor's and they are a positive displacement, self-priming pump. They cannot cavitate. If it's not pumping oil then you have assembled it wrong or it's broken. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 This style of pump does not need to be primed as said. Make sure the pickup is not clogged. Might also help to make sure it has enough oil in the pan. Though I'm SURE you've checked that... Make absolutely sure that none of the silicone you used has clogged in inlet/outlet passages of the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 The pump worked prior to commencing work. The pickup is definitely not clogged. I reopened it on the second round engine pull to inspect, no rtv squeezeout or pump contamination, the oring is new. One big question is what are the two lower access hex key ports designed for on the oil pump? One is on the inlet side the other is the outlet, but not sure why they were provided by Subaru. I have not read anything yet about anyone ever using them for anything, yet they were designed for a purpose. I got the gauge, but the sensor is not a 23mm socket, I will make due. When I connect it up, what pressures should I expect with the plugs removed? Could using higher viscosity (thinner)oil make a difference in priming, I loaded it with 5 30? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) [...]I got the gauge, but the sensor is not a 23mm socket, I will make due. When I connect it up, what pressures should I expect with the plugs removed?[...] The oil pressure switch is supposed to operate at 2.1 psi. Cranking speed should certainly generate that pressure, so the dash warning light should go out. If it's remaining lit after enough cranking, connecting the pressure gauge is probably not going to reveal much. The 2.5's oil pump spec is for a minimum of 14 psi at 600 rpm, delivering at least 4.9 qts/min. Cranking speed, even with the spark plugs out, won't hit 600 rpm (probably closer to half of that), so oil pressure will be similarly reduced. Keep in mind that a measurement of adequate pressure isn't an assurance of sufficient oil volume delivery. Did you fill the oil filter before installing it? By the way, when you worked on the pump, did you disassemble the pressure relief valve? Obviously, if something is holding it open that would be problematical. Edited September 7, 2009 by OB99W Clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 The hex plugs on the pump are likely for a gauge sending unit - which could be availible in other countries. The pump housing is used for many pumps across several different sized engines I'm sure. EA series engines had oil pressure sending unit's located around that area as the US versions of those cars had oil pressure gauges. They could be used durring manufacture for quality control and/or to drill internal passages. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 The oil pressure switch is supposed to operate at 2.1 psi. Cranking at idle should certainly generate that pressure, so the dash warning light should go out. If it's remaining lit after enough cranking, connecting the pressure gauge is probably not going to reveal much. The 2.5's oil pump spec is for a minimum of 14 psi at 600 rpm, delivering at least 4.9 qts/min. Cranking speed, even with the spark plugs out, won't hit 600 rpm (probably closer to half of that), so oil pressure will be similarly reduced. Keep in mind that a measurement of adequate pressure isn't an assurance of sufficient oil volume delivery. Did you fill the oil filter before installing it? By the way, when you worked on the pump, did you disassemble the pressure relief valve? Obviously, if something is holding it open that would be problematical. Only removed the back end & rotors. The gauge would barely have enough resolution at 2 psi. to read it. The tiny crimp ferrule pulled out of the back end anyway have to get another ferrule. What is strange here is that the 1st failure was due to no oil in passenger side cylinder. I mean no oil, although there was oil in the driver side C/H that would probably have been there from the oil fill. The consensus then was that there must have been blockage so I removed the pan again and all was clean and no rtv squeezeouot or contamination. I also removed the oil pump to also inspect it. I only removed it and visually inspected it and it look ok as well so I cleaned it up and reinstalled it. Got another head, had it machined and installed new HG's then reinstalled the engine. Timing was off (I definitely screwed it up) bent the valves on the replacement head. Before removing it though I did unscrew the valve covers on both sides that time & oil was coming out (good sign). Pulled engine the 3rd time, removed both heads again sent to machine shop for rebuild, reinstalled with new intake & HG's. The machinist pointed out I did have the HG on correctly on the original head that was oil starved as you can see the impression of the HG on the machined surface. So, in short, the 1st round I was oil starved, second round, pumped oil, 3rd time (now) no evidence of oil. If it was stuck open I wouldn't expect it to have pumped oil the last time around. The oil on the last round was full of gas which made the viscosity of the oil thinner even though I pulled the crank sensor and coilpack. That is why I was wondering on if the viscosity could matter. Not sure where to go here, also the pumped worked fine before the 1st engine pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 the 1st failure was due to no oil in passenger side cylinder. I mean no oil. What do you mean by this? What kind of failure? Where was the oil *not* getting and what did that cause? Have the oil passages in the crank been checked? Have you blown compressed air through all the passages in the block and crank with a rubber tipped blow-gun to insure there is no blockages? How long have you cranked it with the plugs out before determining you don't have oil pressure? It usually takes about 30 seconds for them to prime if you have filled the oil filter already. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 What do you mean by this? What kind of failure? Where was the oil *not* getting and what did that cause? Have the oil passages in the crank been checked? Have you blown compressed air through all the passages in the block and crank with a rubber tipped blow-gun to insure there is no blockages? How long have you cranked it with the plugs out before determining you don't have oil pressure? It usually takes about 30 seconds for them to prime if you have filled the oil filter already. GD[/quote Earlier this morning, I pulled a vacuum on the oil fill to remove any trapped air pockets within the pump, then pushed compressed air into it in hopes to blow oil into the pump. it must have worked, although I didn't realize it because I didn't think to recheck the dipstick because I didn't think the oil level would have dropped as a result, especially that much. I rechecked it on Faxforeme's suggestion. It was now approx 1 qt low. The oil filter was also prefilled. I used about 1/2 qt MMO this time, then topped off the rest with motor oil, reinstalled the oil sensor, with plugs still out cranked about 3x about 20sec/cycle, oil light finally went out. I haven't reinstalled the plugs yet but will report back. General, sorry if I wasn't clear. This was the 3rd time I had pulled the engine & head gaskets. The 1st time after changing out the head gaskets & most other seals and on startup the P/S cylinder head seized after starting the car and having it run great for about 3 minutes. The entire head was oil starved. Still not sure why. I pulled the motor again(2nd time) got a replacement head from a member, removed the pan & oil pump again to reinspect as it seemed there must have been contamination with RTV but none was found, all ports were clear. Reinstalled heads again, but was off on the timing belt and bent 2 valves in the replacement head. Pulled motor the 3rd time & had it all repaired by the machine shop, just reinstalled the motor again and I am in the process of firing it up. I did blow air in all the passages after I pulled the motor on round 2 and again round 3. All passages were clean, no rtv squeezeout, and air was unobstructed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 The engine starts normally & idles at normal, but a fairly loud sound coming from what sounds like under the engine. The lower trans. cover plate is rubbing against the pressure plate. Before reinstalling it, I noticed it was bent from before, I bent it back, but must have bent it again when reinstalling the engine. It is difficult to access and so far have not been successful at bending it back. I would rather not have to loosen the engine mounts & re-raise the engine again to gain access above the cross member to bend it back unless I absolutely have to. Has anyone got any tricks up their sleeve I can try? I can see the 2 slots on the plate between the axel & the crossmember, I can get the flat blade of the screwdriver in each slot but doesn't seem to enough clearance to apply leverage to bend it back. Doesn't even look bent but I know it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Being low by 1qt isn't low enough to starve the pump, but you got it running at least. I was just looking at that area on my 96 on Saturday. Not much room in there at all. I think you're gonna have to raise the engine again to get to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 Yeah I went back under there again with a long thin flathead, but just not enough room to access without raising the engine. The noise is so loud I can't be sure the engine is without problems yet. I removed the valve cover on the passenger CH and see dripping oil (always a good sign). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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